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Old 06-17-2016, 01:03 AM   #1
jerryc
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Default 7/9 rear bar

I have a 94 sedan with IPD (25 both) f/r, and a 95 wagon with IPD 25 f, sedan 19 rear. Same wheels and tires and susp braces on each. BilHD f/r on sedan, Bil Touring front, HD rear on wagon.

On my daily 10 mi one way commute there are some highway ramps and bends, and on the way back there is a certain bend. The wagon is Clearly superior, feels better and more stable, and carries more speed with more aplomb (<--- first time using this!) in these. That last bend on the way back, I am fine with accelerating through if I am already at 80. The sedan, not so much.

I was thinking of putting a 19 on the back of the sedan, but then wondered if there's a way to make a 21, or 22, or get the effect of those sizes. How to do that with what I have?
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:50 AM   #2
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Why not just put the 19 on? I thought my wagon handled worse when I put the big bar under there. It is a lot of Unsprung weight bouncing down there.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:17 AM   #3
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big rear bars ruin the way these cars handle... you just found that out yourself. Just put a 19 on and enjoy the improvements.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:59 AM   #4
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Honestly, it only takes 20 minutes to swap it in there Jerry, give it a shot.

Personally, I love the way mine handles with the 25 in the rear. Everyone says they are crap, mine is actually pretty damned neutral (others have agreed, even those in the know) with the spring/shock setup on the car. Only gets tail-happy if I'm trying or if I'm a little too heavy on the gas, otherwise it just points where I want it and goes.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Honestly, it only takes 20 minutes to swap it in there Jerry, give it a shot.

Personally, I love the way mine handles with the 25 in the rear. Everyone says they are crap, mine is actually pretty damned neutral (others have agreed, even those in the know) with the spring/shock setup on the car. Only gets tail-happy if I'm trying or if I'm a little too heavy on the gas, otherwise it just points where I want it and goes.
Its not that the car can't be neutral w/ a big rear bar. the problem is they make car neutral by removing all the rear grip. Its better to make it neutral by adding front grip.

Big rear bars are the worst when coming out of corners while on the gas.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:43 AM   #6
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Throw the 19 on the back and enjoy.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:46 AM   #7
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Yes, I'll put the 19 on. The idea was to see if there's a way to split the difference and come up with a 21-22, and make this the world beating racecar (<--- spelled backwards ) it obviously is.
Gary, the Koni's and slight lowering springs are now in the wagon. Not having been in it yet, I am freaked out looking forward to seeing what's going on with it now.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:46 AM   #8
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bubble yost.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:48 AM   #9
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16mm or 19mm. 1987 760 Turbo sedan came with 21 front, 19 rear.
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Old 06-18-2016, 07:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
Its not that the car can't be neutral w/ a big rear bar. the problem is they make car neutral by removing all the rear grip. Its better to make it neutral by adding front grip.

Big rear bars are the worst when coming out of corners while on the gas.
Exactly this. 25 IPD front and 19mm wagon rear, and it LOVES to roll on the power thru turns..... plus it complies with the TB rule of -5mm diam. in the rear.

I'd like to drive a 24mm F / 19mm R setup some day, as the front 25 I suspect is a bit harsh with it's inputs to the vehicle. Down here, I've only seen one 91 SE for sale and the guy crushed it rather than selling me the front bar!
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:41 PM   #11
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I also have the 19mm on the rear of my 92 wagon,and it handles really nice rolling through the corners.I'm really interested in the 25 mm for the rear but from the responses, i don't know now..I'll probably still do it if one comes up for sale on the forum.
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Old 06-20-2016, 01:09 PM   #12
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Torsion bar stiffness varies as the fourth power of diameter. With some quick sums and you can therefore come up with a easy way to compare anti-roll bars.

ARBs by crogthomas, on Flickr

The numbers in the grid are the relative stiffness to the bar in the head of the column. Read the diameter of your current bar across the top, then look down to see how much stiffer the alternative would be.

The way that the rear bars are mounted means it's relatively simple to make some brackets to mount two bars at a time (or even 3?). Stiffness for two bars would simply be the relative stiffness added together. For example the 25mm IPD rear bar is 3 times stiffer than the 19mm bar. You'd need 3x19mm stacked up to replicate the behaviour of the IPD bar.


NB: The Ranger front bar is an unknown. Rumoured to fit, not guaranteed.
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Old 06-20-2016, 01:14 PM   #13
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Edgelord here, no bar in the back, 25 in the front. Konis and IPD. Gives great grip.
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Old 06-20-2016, 04:51 PM   #14
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Interesting; that chart is handy. Ultraracing? Haven't heard of them, UK thing?
The Ranger bar, I think I posted here about that a long time ago, as someone on BB had done it with pics so yes it did fit.
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Old 06-20-2016, 06:15 PM   #15
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Ultra racing sells bars and braces on ebay. Chinese stuff I'd assume.
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Old 06-21-2016, 04:21 AM   #16
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They're a Malaysian company I think. They have a UK distributor, but are also available from various other sources on ebay.
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Old 06-24-2016, 01:53 PM   #17
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that's assuming pure torsion of each bar. wouldn't locking two bars together with a bracket change the math a bit because you are trying to twist two bars locked together at the same time.

I think locking two together and trying to twist would be even stiffer than twisting two bars independent of each other and then adding them together
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Old 07-23-2016, 01:32 PM   #18
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So the rear bar is back to a 19. Reminder, BilHD, IPD front.
Wow. It's now clear that the rear bar was overpowering the shocks; the car is more supple, handling is more neutral, and the ride is improved. Even small bumps are different and not jarring.
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Old 07-23-2016, 03:46 PM   #19
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Happy to have seen this thread before splashing out on dual bar brackets or a bigger single rear bar. I only want more grip, not looking to make a twitchy cheap drifter like others I know.
Stock turbo sedan rear for me it is.
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Old 07-23-2016, 05:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryc View Post
Yes, I'll put the 19 on. The idea was to see if there's a way to split the difference and come up with a 21-22, and make this the world beating racecar (<--- spelled backwards ) it obviously is.
Gary, the Koni's and slight lowering springs are now in the wagon. Not having been in it yet, I am freaked out looking forward to seeing what's going on with it now.
The difference to be considered should be between 16 and 25.
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Old 07-23-2016, 05:41 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lummert View Post
The difference to be considered should be between 16 and 25.
Great feedback here! There are so many variables in terms of shocks,tires,spring setup, ect that can make your experience vary from one car to another. The good thing is we can compare notes to find the right set up for our driving style or preferences.
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Old 07-23-2016, 06:45 PM   #22
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Exactly this. 25 IPD front and 19mm wagon rear, and it LOVES to roll on the power thru turns..... plus it complies with the TB rule of -5mm diam. in the rear.

I'd like to drive a 24mm F / 19mm R setup some day, as the front 25 I suspect is a bit harsh with it's inputs to the vehicle. Down here, I've only seen one 91 SE for sale and the guy crushed it rather than selling me the front bar!
92-94 960 sedan had 24mm front bar.
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:43 PM   #23
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And finally got to hit my 'test' bends and curves (no, not Jenn's curvy girls )
This one bend, it's an off/on ramp that's marked 45. In the sedan before I'd go 60-61, anything more and it was clearly edgy. The wagon was happy at 62-3, which is one of the reasons I posted this.
So the sedan now, 64 and no problems, felt nice, controlled, stable.
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Old 07-24-2016, 03:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
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92-94 960 sedan had 24mm front bar.
Most I've seen don't. Mostly just 91 940SE has the 24 front.
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Old 07-24-2016, 08:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
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92-94 960 sedan had 24mm front bar.
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Most I've seen don't. Mostly just 91 940SE has the 24 front.
Yeah, Most 960 sedans don't, but I have seen a couple or a few. That 91 has them always. Late 780 had them, no wagons ever did afaik.
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