I've been waiting for a response from John to my question but evidently and contrary to popular belief, he may not have all the answers.
I'll respond in the tone you've set.
+
It could just be that I have other things on my plate than to waste hours responding to your incessant whining any time anyone dares to ASK as question about anything you're involved in. Both work and medical.
What I'd like to do here is a little dissertation of John's previous post just to respond to some the allegations or presumptions that were made in that post.
Where's the Whaaambulance?
You should likely do the math again. The real number is less than 20%. You may claim I'm splitting hairs but if you're going to make a statement like that, let's see your math.
Down here in the real world percentages are different:
Stock 4 x 1.5"/38mm pistons gives 7.065 sq/in
The Willwood Engineers who answer the phone's suggestion of
4 x 1.34" gives 5.63 sq/in
7.065 / 5.63 = 1.254884547.
Drop the decimal and move it two places to the right gives us 25.4xxxxxxxxx%
At least in my ancient old adding machine---
I MAY have mis entered something---I did not take the time to dig out my glasses, but maybe its right. You tell me...
What I've said before, but you evidently miss, is while we've reduced the piston area, we've increased the rotor size.
No sheet! Gee Dale I thought that 12.18" was smaller than stock 260mm or whatever they are...
Thank you, you've cleared everything up. I was thinking of exchange rates or miles to km and multiplying 12.18 by 0,62
And only working in metric daily since 1973 I do get confused. Why just a few weeks ago I was off on some dimension we had in iches by 0.0035" when i converted in my head to metric.. Gawd what an oaf I am.
Any reduced hydraulic effect is compensated for by the increase in rotor diameter. Do you, or do you not, agree that rotor size has to be considered any time one is changing brake components?
I didn't realise that rotors changed basic hydraulic balances.
I've often changed piston sizes on brakes--different calipers I should point out before you leap on that in your rage and a presume I've hammered in bigger pistons into smaller holes--- and go ranting all over that, fawk I don't know.
But I've changed calipers to those with both bigger AND smaller and nearly every time the disc sized didn't change.
Unless I changed it.
And those times I changed disc size, I've yet to see it change caliper piston size. or master size.
They SEEM to be two interrelated but independant systems.
But I guess what confuses me is ---and ever single person I have spoken with outside your circle of friends---is why one would spend money on calipers which are so much smaller hydraulically ----then try and get back that reduction by increasing disc diameter---because we all know pad are---or pad VOLUME as AP calls out---has mainly to do with pad life (need some really simple illustrations about how that works or will you accept that?---come on dale, use your visual part of your brain.)
In essence you say here reduce force made by the caliper by (something over 25%) and then we'll make up for that loss of brake power by making the discs so big you'll need 16" wheels---
just to get back to where we started....
Confusing.
The information supplied to the engineers at Wilwood was not confusing.
You keep trying to convince us that you spoke with "engineers", did you ask them to email you scans of their degrees?
What were their degrees in---cause I have known tons of engineers working in fields they didn't study or get a degree in....
Are
you an engineer in real life---or just play one on the Interwebz?
Why not come down to earth and say "The guys" I spoke with at Willwood....
Just for interest sake, what, exactly, are the stock caliper piston and master cylinder sizes?
You don't know?
Sheeet, son, I've posted stock caliper sizes up dozens of times...
In fact i think i wondered aloud--in print, if reducing piston size DOWN when I first did the RX7 conversion nearly a decade ago if that REDUCTION would be a problem.
and master? Which one Dale? There are different ones ya know.
Which ones?
the 263 x 22? 263 x 24?
The 7 series on the 240 hub 287 x 22? 280 x 26mm
Information provided included those dimensions in addition to the weight of the car(s). What information did you give them? Or did you not bother to call them?
Why would I call them? They publish a delicious amount of info of all sorts in their catalogs and on their site.
For figuring sizes?
There are other sources for determining sizes, Dale and one is to look and see what manufacturers homologated for their cars in their FIA Homologation forms.
There you will see what VOLVO themselves decided to use in non-production applications..
Since
the pivotal point of your rants is that some guy who spoke with who you claim was an engineer---but could just as likely been a SoCal surfer answer the phone for minimum wage (I really haven't seen many people studying engineering of any sort who aim to answer phones as a career) siad you should use substantially smaller pistons than OEM, you dig your heels in and go totally over the top and of course take it as a personal attack, when somebody dares to question the illogic.
I have generally relied for information on the knowledge that OEMs gain when THEY mod their cars them self.
Have you checked what size calipers Volvo used when they used the car in motorsport applications?
Tell me, what factors do you take into consideration when considering a brake upgrade? Or is bigger just better, the other factors be damned?
Try not to be stupider than you are coming across--and don't play the fool and claim I'm isulting you when the dominat tone of your entire rant is insulting.
Weight, wheelsize and speed of actual usage.
And no silly wannabe Texan, bigger is not always better....but smaller than OEM for lots of money isn't better either.
Hmmm...where to start? You should really crawl out of your hole more often and look around.
Gee Mr. warmth, I mention anything else using same or similar sized calipers to what Volvo used in motorsport applications and you come back with snide, surly dismissals.
I HAVE looked around at specifically Volvo, Saab 99 and 900 Gp4 and GpA, Ford Escort MkII Gp4, Opel Manta and Ascona B, Opel Kadett GSI GpA, Ford Capri, Ford Sierra Cosworth 3 door rwd GpA, Ford Sierra Cosworth GpA 4x4, Escort Cosworth GpA, Ford Escort F2 fwd, Ford Escort World Rally Car,
Subaru all years GpN, Subaru WRC, Mitsubishi Evo-1-10 GpN, and there is a range of front calipers from 4x 1.5", to 2x 1.5 and 2 x 1.625 to 4x 1.625.
Didn't see anybody reduce front caliper size by 20-25%.
Those cars use either OEM master---and booster, or dual masters.
I've been running Wilwood brakes on my 122 for 5 years now. And guess what? They work quite nicely.
I'm sure they do work "nicely". Whatever that means....
Before you jump all over that, saying the 122 is a completely different car with drum brakes on the rear, my 122 has a 240 rear end.
I run 1.38" pistons in the front and the balance is great. Matt Dupuis (my partner in Avalanche) has been running our Wilwood brakes on his 740 wagon and 780 coupe for 3 or 4 years now. Volvord was the first with our Wilwood brakes on his car. Canuck has our Wilwood brakes on his 122 (with a 240 disc brake rear end as well) and was the test pilot with our Wilwood brakes on his 242. These are all locals and all people whose opinions I value and trust. And before you try to discredit any of them,
I'm not going to "jump on them". You trust yourself, some guy on the phone at Willwood and your friends opinions, that's FINE DALE!!!!! Fine for you.
I trust the choices made by the Motorsports departments of the cars I've listed and my 25 years+ of modding brakes for specific usages...
Volvord is a licensed mechanic who spent 20 years driving and wrenching on rally cars.
That in itself is neither here nor there---did he ever TRY different size calipers?
Many mechanics---most in my experience, cannot tell you caliper piston sizes---why should they? Most can't tell you rod c-c, or journal diameters or much details about stuff cause their job isn't modding stuff, its repair and REPLACEMENT..
Canuck's students call him Doctor or Professor and has been wrenching on cars since he was in high school.
That MIGHT be nice but if he got outta HS 2 years ago it MIGHT not be such a big deal...I don't know if that's 10 years or 40.
Matt has been building cars for 20 years. These aren't some flunkies I dredged up at the local Pick n Pull...
Gooood, except nobody has even breathed a hint that they are anything flunkies or otherwise.
You'll take your chances???!? There's a sales pitch I can trust, if I ever heard one.
That wasn't "sales pitch" it was an extremely sarcastic answer aimed right at you.
Seems the bile has so clogged your brain you didn't read that we used these sized calipers already on several cars, boosted and dual and with sterling results.
So you're saying you don't have a car running these brakes?
No you thickheaded numbskull, crawl back under your rock and read---obviously somebody taught you to read since you can write reams of whining rants.
Did you get that? thru actual personal usage. I have. Have you? I'm not talking about Fords or Subarus here either...
Damn you're thick or just insane raving, I said it clearly...
And Dale, tell me why hydraulics would be different on a Ford or a Subaru???
And how does AP, Alcon, Willwood and others sell the same calipers for different brands or even different cars in the same brand.?
Let's recapitulate.
Some guy on the phone told you that its OK to drastically reduce the hydraulic force the calipers make and so therefore that
is an IMMUTABLE LAW.
You follow this advice and you and some friends are happy.
Good.
problem with a "test" like that is that it doesn't compare itself to anything but stock---and very possibly 200,000-300,000 km stock brakes...
The test MIGHT have a bit more 'weight' if you had tried out what folks who know better----(
your entire argument is based on AUTHORITY---some guy at Willwood said use this size---but I gently suggest that Volvo, Ford, Opel, Subaru, Mitsubishi, VW etc Motorsports departments choices as actually used--and physically measured and found documented in the Homologation forms of a variety of cars is HIGHER AUTHORITY and to any reasonable person TRUMP some guy on the phone at Willwood) and TRIED calipers with 4 x 1.625---or even 2 x 1.34+ 2 x 1.75
and then had a valid COMPARISON----
rather than spewing your anger here at absurd length and acting like you're innocent of intentional insulting tone.
You never know, you might like the performance better---and as for balance---initially you asked "do you have a plan" and i answered clearly "yes', only later did you ask what the plan was...
Come on Dale, you intend to portray yourself as knowledgeable on braking systems enough to
rant and rave at lenght and try to paint me as if i was a fool...
Come on can't you think of some simple under $45 way of increasing uncontrollably the rear brake force in a Volvo---or ford or Subie etc etc etc???
I'm going to write my answer on the back of this envelope here and you give it a shot---it really is incredible that you have to ask---and when you're done wracking your sun baked out noodle, I'll tell you what I wrote, OK?
You guys are like Texans aren't you?
Didn't you mean bigger sized calipers? Not better... Sorry John. You really need to get some facts straight before you try to discredit someone like you've attempted to do here. I'm not on a high horse or nor am I butt-hurt. I'm only trying to give the community some information they can understand. It's not my style to try to blow enough smoke in the customer's eyes his eyes don't stop watering until the money is in my pocket.
Blah blah
I may have to report this as harrassment.
[/quote]
If you choose to respond, please address the issue of rear brake balance in your first paragraph or your response will be considered nothing more than a continuation of the persistent discrediting of others, you feel is necessary in order to promote your own product.[/QUOTE]
Look, YOU'RE the one trying to discredit and insult Dale, and don't hide and try to lie about that.
I asked about sizes and have gotten pages of your screaming and cryuing that I'm discrediting you".
Bullsh1t.
The rear balance question is so simple that I suggest again IF YOU CAN'T FIGURE THAT OUT then it is UNCONSCIONABLE that you advise anybody on any question related to brakes.
And extremely poor behavior that you attempt to discredit a person who is attempting to supply better, more detailed information to folks who have little to no experience in changing brake parts.
It is beyond trolling, it is harassment.
