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Old 12-24-2009, 01:41 AM   #76
morganpartee
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And endtank design had never donned on me until this thread.

Bondo, what is your opinion of the one wennstroma posted up? It looks like a good idea at least. The only downside I can see is that that design isn't offered in bigger cores (at least on ebay).

Moreover, how is that VS the NPR setup?
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:49 AM   #77
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[QUOTE=Captain Bondo;2855448]getting the details sorted and seeing RESULTS /QUOTE]


and thats the game were in!
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YOU need a ban for abuse of power.
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:13 AM   #78
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[QUOTE=Captain Bondo;2855448]
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Agreed. Any more moronic posts from Apeks and he gets 2 days off. Stop cluttering the thread.
Contribute or GTFO. I just don't want to hear about your inferiority complex any more.
Has it occurred to you and your Southern Shadow that while many may be interested in measurable differences in end tank design that they, plural as in MANY, don't want to hear about your (imagined) superiority complex..

Nor do the want to see moderators act like total douche-bags and threaten people with getting banned.

The BULK of your and Kenny's posts is crowing about how great you are, very little substance....

YOU need a ban for abuse of power.
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:23 AM   #79
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how much for the IC?
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:29 AM   #80
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.
And you are Quoted! lol
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:12 AM   #81
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Morgan that setup looks pretty good to me. I agree with whoever made the comment that endtank design starts to mimic intake plenum design in some ways, too, with ic tubes almost like runner inlets

Has similar issues in terms of analysis too - ie computational modeling of intake plenums makes a lot of the same faulty assumptions some of the IC testing linked to in this thread does (ie laminar flow etc), and in fact it's worse since there are reversion pulses, etc.

But, even despite that, it's generally pretty consistent that even a simple CFD analysis showing air distribution works as a general indicator of flow dispersion when compared to real world tests via EGT on intake manifolds.

John if the collective commentary of Kenny and I is so useless, when you see a thread posted my me, just don't even click it. Seriously if you're convinced I am so useless and only post to inflate myself, then just don;'t read my posts. The ban threat was due to the poster racking up half a dozen posts in the thread contributing no technical info whatsoever. This isn't OT.

And if you think i abuse my power, report me. if you think we all crooked and the system is ****ed, join another forum.

I recommend your first course of action be to simply not click on any of the useless threads I start, ever, for everyone's good.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:24 AM   #82
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I've posted plenty of relevant, on-topic stuff in here. You gonna ban yourself for crap like this too?

Quote:
First off, nobody cares if you don't get enough food stamps each wednesday to be able to think about IC end tank design. If you don't see it as an issue for your particular build, or for ther "average" tbricker, then just don't ****ing post. Seriously.

I didn't post this for all of the poor high school students to weigh in on.

This is nearly an exact re-run of the first intercooler post I made probably 5 years ago explaining that the stock IC's sucked and we should upgrade them. Sheep/morons saying "eh you don't need to". Same goes for headers and low backpressure. Look if you don't want to discuss anything technically, just stay in off-topic. Don't use tehcnical threads as your sounding board to explain how poor you are or that you only want 300hp. Nobody ****ing cares. Given that history tends to repeat itself, the fact you think it's a moot point likely means you are just a couple years behind the knowledge curve. BTDT.
You could have simply skipped the childish crap and gone right to your last statement:

Quote:
The bottom line is the info and experience of the few building real motors "trickles down" to the rest of the unwashed, and tis is part of how that process occurrs.
THAT is an appropriate comment.

We get the point of the thread - some end tanks could be improved on. Cool. We get it. No need to bash me for pointing out this is basically a useless modification for the other broke 'Brickers. Let alone actually making fun of the people on your own web forum because they don't throw as much money into their cars as someone else.

Guess I'm on XMas vacation now. See you in a few days!
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:36 AM   #83
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awesome kenny tag team up in here.


This comes back to a common theme on TB, there's lots of good knowledge and info but there's too much noise to filter it out, so rather than digging through archives, most people just dink around for a while, then wander over to eBay and buy the first thing they can afford.

Also we've got the problem that bad info gets spread like crazy and isn't effectively cancelled out. B234 thin walls anyone?

We've hit it in the past, but what about a TB wiki? Would anybody be willing to put in some time to keep it updated and bring in new **** that gets talked about in the forums?
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:37 AM   #84
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Fair enough. I was really just trying to be funny with the "food stamp" commentary but i know that sort of thing doesn't always translate well into type.

And yeah I will essentially go back to being 'banned" now. My attempts at trying to share some thoughts and spark some technical discussion apparently just don't fly here any more. Should not have bothered I 'spose.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:49 AM   #85
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Gonna cop **** for this suggestion, but anyway,

How bout putting a deflector into the ebay IC's to make the air flow through more of the core? kinda like the way aircon vents can be pivoted to aim the air at you, why not weld in a fin/fins to divert some of the air towards the bottom of the core? Saves money on new end tanks, and accomplishes a similar goal with only a minimal restriction to the flow :e-shrug;.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:51 AM   #86
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Awww, don't banninate yourself. It's XMas!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe244 View Post
Gonna cop **** for this suggestion, but anyway,

How bout putting a deflector into the ebay IC's to make the air flow through more of the core? kinda like the way aircon vents can be pivoted to aim the air at you, why not weld in a fin/fins to divert some of the air towards the bottom of the core? Saves money on new end tanks, and accomplishes a similar goal with only a minimal restriction to the flow :e-shrug;.
Well, I guess in theory that works...but wouldn't you have to cut it open anyway to install any decent deflector?
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:55 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianpike View Post
We've hit it in the past, but what about a TB wiki? Would anybody be willing to put in some time to keep it updated and bring in new **** that gets talked about in the forums?
Yes.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:56 AM   #88
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Here, I'll even help you guys out.

For those wondering what the limits of the eBay intercoolers are...check this post out. Please note the boost pressure was over 40 psi on this run (Buschur Racing on an EVO). The info suggests (in my opinion) that the eBay intercoolers are a great upgrade for the money for ~300hp, a good upgrade for ~400, and at ~500+, it may be time to start looking elsewhere or mod the end tanks depending on what was causing this result:

http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/mi...oler-test.html

Then, to play devil's advocate, this guy made a good observation which may actually cancel out the findings of the above test:

Quote:
brilliant test. I am sure you are getting high fives over on that forum too.

the 4.5 race core has 1296 square inches of intercooler heat sink.
the AMS copy and the real one have 840 square inches of heat sink.

what did you think would happen when you remove more heat before it gets to engine?

You would have gotten the same results testing the 4.5 race against the AMS street core.

I am being crass because there are too many idiots making stupid useless comments about e-bay intercoolers. they should not all be grouped together. The CX racing 4 x 24 x 12 (1152sq/in) is a damn good intercooler for the 115 shipped I have paid for them. No shop is going to announce they work well as opposed to buying their 700+ dollar version they want you to.

Gotta make sure we're comparing apples to apples!
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:17 AM   #89
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I'm having my ebay cooler cut up from being side pointing to forward pointing. But should I look at making the pipes a bit angled up as well? The buses and trucks I work on run similar profile end tanks otherwise they are centred which I could see working better. Corky bells turbocharging and supercharging cool covers intercooler end tank design too. Good read. I'm only aiming for 250hp from my turbo, the v6 won't run an ebay cooler and I want 500hp from that and it will cost about 600 from pwr..
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:32 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8 APEKS View Post
Awww, don't banninate yourself. It's XMas!




Well, I guess in theory that works...but wouldn't you have to cut it open anyway to install any decent deflector?
Not if you put them in the inlet pipe neck. Ac deflectors are pretty small.
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:06 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8 APEKS View Post
Gotta make sure we're comparing apples to apples!
Not sure I trust any testing by a guy who freely admits not being able to work hose clamps...
also he doesn't specify the size of either cooler he got numbers from.
And he lost power when he was overfueling and detonating due to him having crippled his EMS. Surprise~!
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:09 AM   #92
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Well, I for one am pleased the subject of this thread was raised.
Engine management and final intercooler choice are the two main remaining areas I have still to come to a firm decision on for my project , and having no personal experience of these ebay units I was after some feedback.


I guess a lot will depend on the airflow and boost levels targeted as well as the type of use the vehicle will get. Output and reliability factors also vary enormously between engines that are required to race for half an hour or more, run flat out for only 10 to 15 seconds, or be driven daily on the street under mixed conditions, and this will likely have as much influence on the choices made as any working budget. What is considered *£@& on one application can be more than adequate on another regardless of cost, and there could also be a realistic upper limit to the need for any future upgrading.

From the examples that have been posted, it appears that the ICs with the greatest frontal area (and in particular height and therefore end tank length) suffer worst from less than ideal end tank design and inlet /outlet connection. A couple of the larger units shown here in the last couple of pages I wouldn't go near due to their appearance alone regardless of how much they cost to buy/ have made/ install.

The comparison with cone and slot intake manifold design is interesting, as there the intention is to even out flow across the cylinders, which would be the same as the intercooler core, and again raises the question of combined intake distribution/ charge cooling possibilities.

Like Vee Que I'm also considering cutting and reworking/ remaking ebay unit end tanks as I'll need to do this at least on one side to fit my set up in a satisfactory way in any case (and probably require routing through the inner wing/ fender).

So, bearing this in mind, is it still worth buying these units just for the core section or would there be a better option in buying another core only and fabricating new custom ends? Does anyone have real back to back test results or experience with these cores, or experience of their construction/ materials/ durability?

Another thing that crossed my mind as I'm using twin turbos, rather than siamesing the compressor outlets before the I/C as I had planned, could be using a pair of shallower ebay intercoolers in the same space which might have slightly better pipe/ tank/core transitions and siamese the outlets before the throttle body instead.

A pair of smaller diameter outlet connections could be easier to package for me, and I can't see any reason for not doing this as the outlet air would be combined before the TB, so there wouldn't be any boost pressure/ airflow differences needing balanced as could happen on a V engine with a similar arrangement and dual intake. Any thoughts?

BTW, I can see merit in both sides of the recent 'discussion' about value and selection of these parts depending on the different standpoints, budgets and goals, but having to wade through post after post of it doesn't half make following the subject and the search process drag!
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:01 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHESH740R View Post
Fancy a sour brandy to drink??
is that what they call that? well it's more than sour, i'll have one next SE though.

also, since i am in need of an intercooler, i like using this information to choose what might be next for me. i am interested in spending some money but at the same time i want to cheap like every other person on here at some point.

i think something used might be the ticket since i can get a baller product at a discounted rate.

any suggestions?
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:27 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 745 TurboGreasel View Post
Not sure I trust any testing by a guy who freely admits not being able to work hose clamps...
also he doesn't specify the size of either cooler he got numbers from.
And he lost power when he was overfueling and detonating due to him having crippled his EMS. Surprise~!
The Honda-Tech link Capt. Bondo posted earlier was a much more interesting read, but even there, they don't come to any concrete conclusion (yet) as to appropriate end tank design. Basically, I'd like to see some hard data from someone that can quantify the expense in revising the end tank design will actually provide returns that justify that expense. I for one would certainly like to improve my IC system to optimize flow & minimize power loss, but I'm not going to revise it all again based on speculation. The oval port option brought up early on - I think it was on a Bentley IC - is another interesting route. Isn't the oval piping supposed to improve flow over tubular also?
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:30 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bready View Post
This is like a trip down memory lane....



Good to see Kenny back after quitting the forum a couple weeks ago.

Merry Christmas everyone.

KTP

Weren't you the one who pissed Kenny off and almost made him leave for good? Or am I high?
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:12 PM   #96
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no, don't think you are high, sounds accurate.
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:17 PM   #97
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mine.
No good?



I've always wanted the radiator/ic combo
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:47 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbeam View Post
I guess a lot will depend on the airflow and boost levels targeted as well as the type of use the vehicle will get. Output and reliability factors also vary enormously between engines that are required to race for half an hour or more, run flat out for only 10 to 15 seconds, or be driven daily on the street under mixed conditions, and this will likely have as much influence on the choices made as any working budget. What is considered *£@& on one application can be more than adequate on another regardless of cost, and there could also be a realistic upper limit to the need for any future upgrading.

From the examples that have been posted, it appears that the ICs with the greatest frontal area (and in particular height and therefore end tank length) suffer worst from less than ideal end tank design and inlet /outlet connection. A couple of the larger units shown here in the last couple of pages I wouldn't go near due to their appearance alone regardless of how much they cost to buy/ have made/ install.

The comparison with cone and slot intake manifold design is interesting, as there the intention is to even out flow across the cylinders, which would be the same as the intercooler core, and again raises the question of combined intake distribution/ charge cooling possibilities.

Like Vee Que I'm also considering cutting and reworking/ remaking ebay unit end tanks as I'll need to do this at least on one side to fit my set up in a satisfactory way in any case (and probably require routing through the inner wing/ fender).

So, bearing this in mind, is it still worth buying these units just for the core section or would there be a better option in buying another core only and fabricating new custom ends? Does anyone have real back to back test results or experience with these cores, or experience of their construction/ materials/ durability?

Another thing that crossed my mind as I'm using twin turbos, rather than siamesing the compressor outlets before the I/C as I had planned, could be using a pair of shallower ebay intercoolers in the same space which might have slightly better pipe/ tank/core transitions and siamese the outlets before the throttle body instead.

A pair of smaller diameter outlet connections could be easier to package for me, and I can't see any reason for not doing this as the outlet air would be combined before the TB, so there wouldn't be any boost pressure/ airflow differences needing balanced as could happen on a V engine with a similar arrangement and dual intake. Any thoughts?

BTW, I can see merit in both sides of the recent 'discussion' about value and selection of these parts depending on the different standpoints, budgets and goals, but having to wade through post after post of it doesn't half make following the subject and the search process drag!

This board seems to be 70% street cars that never see a track, 20% drag strip with only short bursts of thermal load on the IC and each run starts out cold, and 10% AutoX or other sort of racing.

That application certainly should be taken into consideration.
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:48 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post

Has it occurred to you and your Southern Shadow that while many may be interested in measurable differences in end tank design that they, plural as in MANY, don't want to hear about your (imagined) superiority complex..

Nor do the want to see moderators act like total douche-bags and threaten people with getting banned.

The BULK of your and Kenny's posts is crowing about how great you are, very little substance....

YOU need a ban for abuse of power.
awww john, merry christmas you underachieving bloviating north westerner!
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:58 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by 500dollar744ti View Post
any suggestions?
yep. ask lateapex and john v. They are both clearly the way, the path, and the light when it comes to volvo tuning and power production. I'm sure they can put you on the right path.

it is amusing though watching john founder amongst the 'commoners'.. bring an opinion to a thread counter to what he's sellin..err saying, and he'll tell you that you're an idiot and to prove it, all the while going off on some whimsical side-rant about something else completely unrelated.

but when you bring evidence and experience to the discussion, you're "showing off" and "crowing about your achievements".

So where are his? balled up on the rally roads after they fell apart and almost killed someone? Installed backwards? Left out of the crank case? Maybe they're too thin to work correctly (heeyy, that's a three-fer there if you're in the know)?

Please john, lead us the vast unwashed unedjukated injurnearingly challenged from the deep dark forests of mediocrity..
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