home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > projects & restorations

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-01-2017, 03:22 PM   #301
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

I pulled my trans and took it apart to check out the fifth gear assembly. Here is how I had it assembled:

Slider with the big chamfer out


Thing that holds the keys with the step out to fit the lock ring


Fifth gear as normal


Upgraded bearing retainer


Is something wrong with this setup? I think it's the only way that makes sense. My keys didn't seem really out of place either. Do the brass syncros have to go on a specific way? What else could be causing my fifth gear to pop out? My fluid does look metallic in the catch pan.

I also learned I'm using the wrong hydraulic throwout bearing for my pressure plate. It has flat fingers, so I should be using a radial bearing like Culberro. That's an expensive lesson.
__________________
1982 242 Turbo.

Last edited by t8fanning; 10-01-2017 at 03:54 PM..
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2017, 05:47 PM   #302
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Is there a brass synchro between the slider and 5th gear?

The 3 that I have had apart have all looked like this:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4934.JPG (133.1 KB, 446 views)
__________________
Cult Person. Pissing in your Kool-Aid.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2017, 06:44 PM   #303
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Is there a brass synchro between the slider and 5th gear?
Yeah there is, I just didn't take a picture of it. I pulled mine from a 1994 mustang. I think the newer T5's had the extra syncro and brake.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 09:36 PM   #304
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

For the release bearing, you can get just the bearing and not have to replace the entire unit. Still ~$50 though: http://tiltonracing.com/product/repl...-bearing-kits/

On the trans, does the slider snap into the keys? Were the detents in the slider matched up with the keys? The slider should be somewhat difficult to move by hand.
What's the end-play on the mainshaft and countershaft? Maybe it's rocking a bit under load and popping out?
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 11:30 PM   #305
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
For the release bearing, you can get just the bearing and not have to replace the entire unit. Still ~$50 though: http://tiltonracing.com/product/repl...-bearing-kits/

On the trans, does the slider snap into the keys? Were the detents in the slider matched up with the keys? The slider should be somewhat difficult to move by hand.
What's the end-play on the mainshaft and countershaft? Maybe it's rocking a bit under load and popping out?
I already have one of the 52 mm radius face bearings. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with my piston, so I ordered a new one of those too. I'm just glad I don't have to buy a new hydraulic base. That's the expensive bit.

The inner part of the slider assembly slides around in the outer part while the keys remain in the neutral position. There is no end play in either shaft. That's the whole reason I took the transmission apart. Second gear would pop out on downshifts. After I adjusted the play on both shafts, it stays in second no matter how hard of a downshift. So I don't think that's the problem either.

I ordered new 5th gear syncros, keys and springs. I'm hoping I just did something wrong with installing the keys last time because I have no idea what else the problem could be. In any case, parts should hopefully be here by next weekend and then I'll install it again and hope I didn't mess up.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2017, 02:22 PM   #306
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

I replaced the 5th gear syncros, keys, and springs with no problem. But when shifting to reverse, the reverse slider moves the 1-2 slider, which seems wrong to me. Does the 1-2 shift fork hold that slider in place during normal operation?

t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 12:41 AM   #307
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Since I had the transmission out, I decided to address the heavy clutch pedal feel. The problem was that the flat face bearing I was using reduced the moment arm on the flat pressure plate fingers.You can see where it was hitting here:



The solution is to get a radius face bearing. These are made to work with flat finger pressure plates, but I didn't know there was a difference when I ordered my bearing originally. You can see the difference between the flat face (left) and radius face (right) bearings:





Unfortunately, the radius face bearing requires a different piston because it has a smaller inner diameter than the flat face bearing, so I had to change that as well. To install the bearing, I put the piston in the freezer for a couple hours and the bearing slid on no problem. Tilton said you could use a small press. It really doesn't require much. There should be a small gap between the bearing and piston step, so don't try to push it down too hard.

For reference the Tilton part numbers are:
Piston 62-612
Bearing 62-002

I got my piston from Summit and my bearing from Pegasus racing because they had them in stock.

To meet the smaller ID of the radius face bearing, the piston has a step. The flat face housing has an inner threaded section that is 0.140" taller than the housing that comes with the radius face bearing, and hits the step of the new piston. This reduces the overall travel of the bearing, but the Tilton engineer I talked to said he didn't think it would be a problem. I'll see when I actually install the transmission in the car. The pressure plate doesn't need to be actuated that much, and I'll still have 0.435" of travel accounting for the air gap when the bearing is fully retracted.

To get the new piston to fit, I had to modify the input shaft bearing retainer pretty heavily. I cut the nose down so that it was shorter than the threaded section, but I also had to remove some aluminum from where the threaded adjustment sleeve rests to get enough distance to properly adjust the new, longer bearing. You can see the machining marks here. I scratched the sleeve a bit, but it shouldn't be a problem because the adjustment sleeve still sits securely. It was a pretty easy job, just 30 min or so on the lathe. A professional machinist could surely do it faster.



You can see that the threaded adjustment sleeve is longer than the bearing retainer sleeve:





I adjusted the bearing to rest 0.125" above the pressure plate fingers and installed the bellhousing.





I'm a little concerned that the bleed hose isn't much higher than the pressure hose, but I hope to be able to get all the air out with my power bleeder. I'll try to install the transmission in the car tomorrow. Hopefully the release bearing is fine and fifth gear works. If it doesn't I have no idea what's wrong with my transmission.

Last edited by t8fanning; 10-17-2017 at 12:22 PM..
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 08:56 PM   #308
mikezohsix
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: granville ma
Default

My son sent me this thread, impressive build!
Looks familiar in many ways.......

My experience with transmissions popping out of gear has always been related to the shafts "walking" in the case. Admittedly, most of this is Saab experience where the main shaft is also the pinion gear, but I have seen it on the Muncie trans that come in the "old" muscle cars.

Another comment, there is a picture of the input shaft housing (if that's what its called) with a couple of bolts in it. I didn't see any marks on the bolts indicating the grade of the bolt. No marks, usually means cheap bolts ( grade 2, or worse, from China), which you don't want to use. I'd go grade 5 (three radial marks). Some people always go grade 8 (5 marks), but that's not always the best way to go, and would be overkill.
__________________
97 V90, gone but not forgotten,
- it's a driving car now with a 350hp all aluminum LS1 with T56 six speed manual transmission, and it hauls ass! Check the for sale section if you're interested in the car - http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=235015.
mikezohsix@yahoo.com
mikezohsix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 10:13 PM   #309
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
I replaced the 5th gear syncros, keys, and springs with no problem. But when shifting to reverse, the reverse slider moves the 1-2 slider, which seems wrong to me. Does the 1-2 shift fork hold that slider in place during normal operation?
That's from the reverse idler sliding into the side of the 1-2 slider. The 1-2 shift fork keeps it from moving when it's actually going into reverse. If you keep the 1-2 slider in the "neutral" location, it'll go into reverse. If you let the slider move rearward and engage 1st, you couldn't rotate the trans by hand.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 10:51 PM   #310
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikezohsix View Post
My son sent me this thread, impressive build!
Looks familiar in many ways.......
Thanks! Sometimes I feel like I copied his car, but his car is definitely much cleaner and nicer than mine. His car is definitely a huge inspiration to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikezohsix View Post
My experience with transmissions popping out of gear has always been related to the shafts "walking" in the case. Admittedly, most of this is Saab experience where the main shaft is also the pinion gear, but I have seen it on the Muncie trans that come in the "old" muscle cars.
The reason I even went into the trans was to reshim the counter gear so it would stop popping out of second, so I don't think the 5th gear issue is shaft movement. But that was a problem I had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikezohsix View Post
Another comment, there is a picture of the input shaft housing (if that's what its called) with a couple of bolts in it. I didn't see any marks on the bolts indicating the grade of the bolt. No marks, usually means cheap bolts ( grade 2, or worse, from China), which you don't want to use. I'd go grade 5 (three radial marks). Some people always go grade 8 (5 marks), but that's not always the best way to go, and would be overkill.
Thanks for looking out for things like that. Fortunately, those bolts are class 10.9. They're probably overkill anyway because the torque spec is something like 16 ft/lbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
That's from the reverse idler sliding into the side of the 1-2 slider. The 1-2 shift fork keeps it from moving when it's actually going into reverse. If you keep the 1-2 slider in the "neutral" location, it'll go into reverse. If you let the slider move rearward and engage 1st, you couldn't rotate the trans by hand.
That's what I was hoping when I reassembled. Thanks for the confirmation.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 12:32 AM   #311
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

Let's see a big version of that Sig pic.

Is that shift fork boot a new one? Where did you get it? I run mine sans boot, But seems like I probably should have one.

Keep up the good work.
__________________
1986 245
1980 242 Turbo
Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 02:50 AM   #312
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncleknucklez View Post
Let's see a big version of that Sig pic.

Is that shift fork boot a new one? Where did you get it? I run mine sans boot, But seems like I probably should have one.

Keep up the good work.
What sig pic?

I got the boot new from IPD or FCP a couple years ago.

I installed the transmission tonight and took it for a test drive. The clutch feels so much better. It feels like a stock cable clutch. Huge improvement, totally worth the time and money.

However, my transmission still pops out of gear. Now it's fifth and second. This makes me think it's something to do with the shifter, so I'll drive it to work tomorrow with no tunnel foam and no shift boot to see what happens. I'll also adjust my stops out again.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 10:07 AM   #313
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post

I installed the transmission tonight and took it for a test drive. The clutch feels so much better. It feels like a stock cable clutch. Huge improvement, totally worth the time and money.
yeah! Happy to hear this, and also glad you broke the path on this one. Really excited for a lighter pedal now
__________________
'79 242
943 pickup
Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 12:35 PM   #314
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
What sig pic?

I got the boot new from IPD or FCP a couple years ago.

I installed the transmission tonight and took it for a test drive. The clutch feels so much better. It feels like a stock cable clutch. Huge improvement, totally worth the time and money.

However, my transmission still pops out of gear. Now it's fifth and second. This makes me think it's something to do with the shifter, so I'll drive it to work tomorrow with no tunnel foam and no shift boot to see what happens. I'll also adjust my stops out again.
My bad, Avatar pic
Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 12:40 PM   #315
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 02:19 PM   #316
stick70
All the gauges
 
stick70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: North Carolina
Default

What spoiler are you running? It looks damn good.
__________________
Kyle and the "Projects" -- '84 242 TI -- '66 220 S -- '89 Supra Turbo -- '84 Rabbit GTI
stick70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 02:24 PM   #317
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Thanks. It's from some Saab. I don't know which one though, My friend had it sitting in his garage for a long time. If you're curious, I could grab the part number if you want.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 03:37 PM   #318
Quin
ಠ_ಠ
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Soldotna, AK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
yeah! Happy to hear this, and also glad you broke the path on this one. Really excited for a lighter pedal now
i really, really enjoy when harald and tate trial & error their way through something so i can just copycat it later.
__________________
Quin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 04:34 PM   #319
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
Thanks. It's from some Saab. I don't know which one though, My friend had it sitting in his garage for a long time. If you're curious, I could grab the part number if you want.
1st gen 9000 spoiler I think? although I thought they had more wrap on the corners.
Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 04:37 PM   #320
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
1st gen 9000 spoiler
Thanks. I always mix the 9000 and 900 up and have never seen another one of mine in the junkyard so I didn't know.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 04:46 PM   #321
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
Thanks. I always mix the 9000 and 900 up and have never seen another one of mine in the junkyard so I didn't know.
actually I think it's from a C900 notchback, which is a really rare car.

Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 04:49 PM   #322
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

I think you're right. That would explain why I've never seen another one.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 08:47 PM   #323
stick70
All the gauges
 
stick70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: North Carolina
Default

Gotcha, thanks guys. Car looks awesome dude.
stick70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 09:53 PM   #324
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
actually I think it's from a C900 notchback, which is a really rare car.
The true SAAB 900 notchback was the prototype for the convertible. I believe they were made only in either 84 or 85, a one year deal. The "notch" is a 2 door with a trunk as the convertible has. I damn near bought one back in my SAAB days.

The pic is a 4 door turbo, also a rare bird in North America. I'm pretty sure they only offered it here for a single year, again around 84. Plenty of years of 4 door Turbo 900s around the world, but not in the States.
__________________
Project "cheap thrills" build thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...67#post4211467

Feedback thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=198746
DET17 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2017, 10:39 PM   #325
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
Dewd, she's a beaut
Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.