Garrett T3 On '90+ Manifold *pics*

[towerymt]

There seems to be a bit of confusion about putting a T3 on a '90+ manifold. Some people say you need to machine the lip off the manifold. Some say you just need to enlarge the opening in the manifold to match the Garrett.

It depends on which type of T3 turbine housing you have. On the left, a Volvo housing with a round indentation. On the right, a Ford housing with a standard flat T3 flange.



'90+ TD04 manifold next to the Volvo T3:



It's pretty obvious how much smaller the opening is in the manifold. Anyone have a picture of a manifold that's been ported to match a T3?



The lip on the manifold would only have to be removed if the T3 doesn't have a Volvo turbine housing.

The Volvo housing shown is a .63 A/R, of which some people have questioned the existance. This one came with a non-watercooled cartridge, so it was probably from an early B21FT.

[TerribleOne]

awesome, thanks for the info. the stud sizes dont look the same on the volvo and ford manifolds

[linuxman51]

the volvo housing is threaded and the ford is not, thats why the volvo one looks smaller. if one wants to apply the volvo t3 to the late style studed manifold one would have to grind out the threads and/or grind down a bit on the flange for clearance for nuts.

[the poi]

a .63 AR Volvo housing?! Where from?

[towerymt]

The volvo housing fits over the studs, but that part of the flange is thicker than the ford housing, so I'm not sure that nuts would go on far enough. I haven't gotten that far.

AFAIK, the .63 was used on early engines. I don't know when, or on which. I bought it from own6volvos who bought it from somone else for a part he needed. I just wanted an uncracked housing, so I was happy to hear it was a .63 to go with the .60 compressor from the ford.

[the poi]

Originally Posted by towerymt

The volvo housing fits over the studs, but that part of the flange is thicker than the ford housing, so I'm not sure that nuts would go on far enough. I haven't gotten that far.

AFAIK, the .63 was used on early engines. I don't know when, or on which. I bought it from own6volvos who bought it from somone else for a part he needed. I just wanted an uncracked housing, so I was happy to hear it was a .63 to go with the .60 compressor from the ford.

lucky bastard! :-) You happen to know how early? 200 series, or the early 700's?

Michael, rather than grinding down the volvo housing to allow enough thread length, install longer studs in the manifold [use lots of WD to loosen the studs]. They are the same size as the exhaust manifold studs at the exhaust ports; the exhaust port studs are about a half inch longer. Intake manifold studs are in between the two in length.

re the .63 A/R turbine housings: all the 240 turbos I have worked on had the .63T housing. On the turbos that had been replaced--clue: watercooled center--some were still .63; some had the .48 housing like the 700s.

I have the .63 housing on mine; and it is mounted on a 90 manifold. I like the volvo turbine housing because I was able to open it up a bit more than I would have been able to if it had been the ford flange. And sorry, I did not take pics of it. The .63 hsg is cracked at the wastegate hole. So I opened up the hole to better match the wastegate flapper, figuring what the heck, why not.

My 90 manifold is also cracked--haven't seen an uncracked one yet. I have two others that have two or more cracks. The one I installed has only one crack. With a carbide burr, I was able to open up the outlet and blend things nicely to flow into the enlarged volvo turbine housing inlet. What a difference the 90 manifold made; along with the enlarged outlet/inlet and enlarged wastegate hole....into boost well before 2500; off boost cruise is less labored: higher manifold vacuum. And manifold glow after a hard run is half what it used to be with the old style manifold.

You will enjoy the results of your efforts.

You might trace the T3 rectangular opening onto a piece of paper and then scribe it onto the late manifold oval opening. Once you have removed the material necessary to match the two, you might find that there is not enough metal lip left to provide a secure reliable long term seal unless you machine the metal lip flat. I know people have just bolted them on without any mods, but I don't think that is ideal. You are just bottlenecking the gas flow before it gets to the much larger opening of the turbo, where it would then slow down as it filled up that volume. Maybe there would be no noticeable effect, but it cannot be as efficient.

I am in favor of porting the late manifold to match, machining both surfaces flat and using no gasket. I am not sure how to stop the cracking. I have cracked two late manifolds and now have a third to try. I may inquire about shotpeening and I may coat it. Can't hurt. Its a pain to change manifolds. I'd rather do it right the first time.

Philip Bradley

[yorkbrick]

Nice post, Micheal!

As Philip suggested, one could trace the size of the opening. Or get a T3 gasket [I have one from volvo for the 81 240T: it used the flat mating surface ala ford; the raised mating suface first appeared in '82]. Using the T3 flange gasket, you can scribe the opening onto the manifold outlet to show how much material you can and should remove. Do compare the gasket to the turbine housing opening to both verify it being correctly sized, and to see if there might be a bit of material you can remove from the turbine hsg inlet to achieve a good match. The flange gasket serves as your optical comparator, assisting in verifying that the openings in both the manifold and turbine housing are sized the same.

My volvo flange gasket has a slightly smaller opening in it compared to generic T3 flange gaskets. Even so, whichever flange gasket you get will give you the straight edge needed for scribing the lines on the iron. The gasket from volvo was around $15; generic gaskets are $5-$10.

I would agree with Philip that not opening up the manifold outlet on the 90 manifold is less than ideal. I would go further and say that not enlarging and shaping/blending the outlet to match a T3 housing inlet would essentially negate the advantages of installing the newer style manifold: that outlet opening is TINY compared to the T3 hsg opening. Let the exhaust gases be merged and compressed in the turbine housing, not in the manifold. Open it up; let it flow.

[The Aspirator]

Good thread, I've got a few more questions to ask/add:

My regular T3 is taken off an '82 242 turbo, it's a replacement cause it's watercooled. So say it's a 42/48 like normal (except for what stealthfti just said) and I want to slap on a 60 trim compressor housing and a 63 trim exhaust housing from a ford turbo...... will this work? I've heard that it'll physically bolt up (to the center cartridge) but are the blades the same/will they work?

Also, what are the older style manifolds like? Do they have the lip or are they flat? So if I got a ford 63 exhaust section, and my manifold has the lip, I'll have to get it machined, and rig up a way to bolt it together?

Thanks! I did tons of seaching a few weeks ago, and have been asking around lots, but to no concrete conclusions.

John

Ohh and when you mount a flat turbo housing to a flat manifold, is a gasket needed? Whereas the lip would not need a gasket.

[towerymt]

The center section is the same between my .60/.48 ford turbo and my ??/.63 volvo turbo, except for water cooling. So I think you can do what you wanted with swapping the housings. I'm replacing the .48 ford exhaust housing with the .63 volvo.

I'm not sure about the necessity of a gasket, but I recall Doug used one with one of his many turbos, so I'm thinking that with two flat surfaces it wouldn't be a bad idea. I thought stealthfti had mentioned that no gasket was needed, but now I can't find where I thought that was written.

No gasket is needed if both surfaces are machined perfectly and are of approximately the same metal composition. Or perhaps if the surfaces are near perfect and you have an interference fit like the OEM Volvo design. Standard T3 gaskets cost about $5. Don't think that they are a cheap solution that will let you do a quickie job. I tried that and the gasket let go eventually. Better to do it as well as reasonably possible the first time.

Philip Bradley

Aspirator - I've never seen a 240 with a 0.48 housing, though I'll concede that there are ones that were swapped on or replaced like Tom said. Dry cartridges on 240s will almost guaranteed be 0.63, though there are still a few dry 0.48s on 700s layin' around. If you're unsure, there is a marking on the cartridge side of the turbine inlet - it should say A/R .63.

Ain't no way you're gonna make a 60 trim Ford housing work on a 45 or 50 trim compressor wheel. Sorry. Notice that trim and A/R are different things altogether. It will bolt up, but you'll have to change the compressor wheel to make it work. If you had a 60 trim 0.42 A/R housing and wanted to put the Ford's 60 trim 0.60 A/R housing on, you could do that with just a cover swap. The turbine sides are interchangable, as the wheels are the same and the only difference is the A/R (area/radius, in case you didn't know)

Tom - I've got a turbo from an '82 and it has the flat surface. I think they started the raised surface in '83, but it's possible that some '82s had 'em. I'm only sayin' that the '82 I pulled one from had a flat housing.

Did you weld up the crack in your manifold, or just let it be? How badly cracked are your other ones? I have access to a TIG at work, and people who know how to use 'em, so I might be interested in a "cracked but repairable" one.

[mAydAy]

I have no pictures right now but in about 2 weeks or so I'll be mating a 60trim T3 onto a 90+ Manifold and I'll post pictures of it. I'll be opening the exhaust manifold to match the size of the exhaust housing and probably port out both of them some, depending on how much I can take out of them. It's a regular T3-Style flange so it will be sporting a removed flange and gasket in there.
-Andy

[The Aspirator]

Originally Posted by Matt Dupuis

Ain't no way you're gonna make a 60 trim Ford housing work on a 45 or 50 trim compressor wheel. Sorry. Notice that trim and A/R are different things altogether. It will bolt up, but you'll have to change the compressor wheel to make it work. If you had a 60 trim 0.42 A/R housing and wanted to put the Ford's 60 trim 0.60 A/R housing on, you could do that with just a cover swap. The turbine sides are interchangable, as the wheels are the same and the only difference is the A/R (area/radius, in case you didn't know)

Matt,
That's the turbo on my car right now. I'm kinda confused by what you said above, but I basically need to know if this will work. You said it's possible if I had a 60 trim .42A/R housing, might I have this? 60 being the wheel and .42 being the housing? I'm so confused. How do I know what wheel I have? And can I tell what the exhaust A/R is without taking it apart?

John

[Willard]

Originally Posted by towerymt

Anyone have a picture of a manifold that's been ported to match a T3?

I wish...

The turbo place that did my work machined the manifold surface flat and installed larger studs to match the turbo.

As you can see (white line) they tried to fix a crack but it did not work. The manifold does not leak when it is not... but the crack is still there.

Add orig.jpg to the end of the link to see a larger version of the picture.

John, I can understand your confusion: it is a confusing situation.

looking at your pic: the A/R is .42...that is referring to the dimensions of the aluminum compressor housing that has those numbers on it. That does not necessarily mean that the compressor wheel that we can see in there is also .42 anything. You would need to measure the distance across the fin tips. That measurement will give you an "idea" of what the wheel "trim" is.

If the distance across the fin tips were to be about 1.83in, then it would be a 60 trim wheel. I highly doubt that the measurement would be that. It will probably be somewhere between 1.484in and 1.674in across the tips. If it measures 1.484in, it is a 40 trim wheel. If it measures 1.595in, it is a 45 trim wheel. If it measures 1.674in across the tips, it is a 50 trim wheel.

I would refer you to the turbonetics online catalog; and go to the Summary pages listing out the components for the turbos and gives their dimensions. The wheel trims that turbonetics lists are not all the wheels that were ever available: just the ones that they use....but that can give you an idea of what the trim of that wheel is.

A/R and trim are two very different things. For this discussion, the trim is the size of the wheels. The factory would not install a 60 trim wheel into a .42A/R housing: it would not be efficient: big wheel in small housing would not flow for crap. With that .42 housing, you would have one of the wheels I mentioned above...or something in between one of them.

There is a lot to know about comp wheels and housings....and it is complicated when people remachine a comp housing in order to fit a different trim wheel. There are websites that show pics of doing that machining; you can find them and look at the pics for clarification of that.

Jumping to the turbine side: looking at the turbonetics listing of T3 turbine wheels; what they call a stageI turbine wheel is what others call the stock wheel. Your volvo turbo and a stock ford turbo would both have the stock size turbine wheel [turbonetics stageI].

To your questions: you can swap the turbine housings if the turbine wheels are the same...AND THEY SHOULD BE!! but when you remove the turbine housings, measure the wheels...then you will know for absolute sure...

on the comp side, that .60 A/R aluminum compressor housing from the ford turbo will fit onto the backing plate...and will fit over the comp wheel of your volvo turbo. AND it will have so much clearance around the fins of the comp wheel that it will not compress air worth a crap...if at all. You would need to have a comp wheel that matches the comp housing machined curve. If you were to disassemble the two turbos, you would see exactly what I mean.

How you go about mixing and matching parts has to follow two principles:

...the turbine housing has to match the turbine wheel dimensions so that there is the proper clearances...[close, but no touching allowed!!]

...the comp housing has to match the size of the comp wheel....for the same reasons.

If you mix and match wheels, then you should have the centersection rebalanced.....ie, if you take the ford comp wheel and want to install it on the volvo turbine wheel/shaft, then you need to have a turbo shop rebalance that. Many diesel turbo repair shops have the balancing capabilities to do that for you. They could reseal the centersection for you at that time also.

Can you get by without rebalancing? maybe. If you don't have it balanced, the chances are pretty d##n good that you will be redoing the job....and probably sooner than later. your decision; your choice on that.

HTH

Matt, I'll get back to you on the manifolds stuff. Just wanted to get John this info.

[The Aspirator]

Man, you ROCK! You're always extremely helpful, and very nice about it. There really isn't much else I can ask after what you wrote.

Other than, I could have sworn that everyone says the exhaust a/r of a normal volvo T3 is around .48 or so, and like Towery said above, some questioned the existence of the .63 ones. So if you say that most all of them are indeed .63, will there be any difference at all going to a ford turbine housing? Doesn't seem like it. Ohh, and why would they have a .42 comp housing and a .63 turbine housing? Maybe I miss-read something in the above....

So if I go with 60/63 ford housings on my center cartridge, I ONLY need the compressor wheel? Not the exhaust one?

Ohh, and can anybody else comment on what Jordan told me here:

Originally Posted by GTJordan

About the shaft play... I noticed on my 60Trim, when I let it sit all the oil drained out, and it moved. Once I got oil primed through it, it tightened up again.

I noticed that my turbo felt loose and rubbed the sides a tiny little bit, but that was after loosing all my oil. So maybe with oil in it, it will tighten up again?

But stealth, that helped me alot. Now I at least know what to go and look for. You da man!

John

[The Aspirator]

For the record, I've got a spare turbo (blown) that was given to me for free. It's off of some 240, and it's got a .63 turbine housing! Schweeeeeet. I just looked at it two minutes ago, and now I can't remember if it was watercooled or not..... I'll check again and update. It's got a .42 compressor housing BTW, just like the pic of mine above.

John

[The Aspirator]

For that spare turbo of mine....

.63 turbine housing
.60 turbine wheel! Roughly 1.8" diameter
non watercooled

By looking at some of my pictures, the turbo on my car seems to have the same sized exhaust wheel. So this might well be a .63a/r also, but it obviously needs to be replaced, and will be with my spare turbo turbine housing..... which is for sure .63a/r. 8-)
http://forums.turbobricks.com/viewto...ighlight=crack

John

John, glad it helped.

to summarize:
...you have a volvo watercooled T3: .48A/R turbine hsg/ .42A/R comp hsg.
...you want to swap the ford .63A/R turbine housing onto that volvo turbo: should be no problem....BUT you will want to verify that the wastegate housing 5 bolt pattern is the same. Some of the 5 bolt patterns were a hair larger than others; so you have to check them.
...you found a junk 240 turbo with a .63 A/R turbine housing...cool. That would be easiest swap...if no bolts break; and if the housing is not cracked at the wastegate hole.
...to swap the ford .60 A/R comp housing onto the volvo turbo, you will also need the ford comp wheel.

soak things down REAL good several times with WD or liquid wrench or PB blaster for a day or so...that can usually help minimize the chances of bolts not threading out/breaking. Sometimes a little heat from a propane torch to get the bolts good and warm; let them cool some; and more WD will also help that.

re bearings....Garretts use floating bearings: the bearings do not contact anything; they float in the oil. Actually, the bearings are there to direct and control the thickness of the oil film that actually supports the shaft. It is kinda hard to make a bearing that has to handle heat and vibration AND spin at 100,000rpm. So they don't. They use floaters that keep a film of oil between the bearing and the shaft, and a film of oil between the bearing and the housing. example: turbine shaft speed 100k rpm; bearings' speed 50k rpm; housing speed zero. The oil is humming through the space between the shaft, the bearings, and the housing.

In light of that, when a turbo sits for a while, the oil drains out; showing the max play between things. If the fins are touching the sides, that would normally indicate excessive wear. BUT, if the turbo is doing that after sitting a long time on the shelf [no oil inside], then I'd want to run some oil through it and check the play again. But even so, the general rule of thumb is that if the blades touch the sides, then the bearings need to be replaced.

Since you are going to swap comp wheels, and will need a balance job....then have the turbo shop replace the bearings and seals when they do the rebalance. For all intents and purposes, you'll have a reman center section then. And chances are very good that the turbo shop will clean the wheels up nice and pretty too! [needed to get the balance right]

Have fun. a T3-60 with .63T should run really nice with 3in exhaust. a late style manifold would be the icing on the cake.

****

just looked at the cracks on the turbine hsg pics you posted...those cracks are way excessive. My .63 hsg is cracked; but less than 25% as bad. A single crack there by the wastegate hole.

hold on a bit: look at the wheel sizes on turbonetics. the sizes I stated before were for the comp wheels. turbine wheels are separate; and have their own numbers. the 1.8in size you state would be for a stageI turbine wheel.

remember, the size of the turbine wheel has nothing to do with the A/R of the housing. the 240s used the same size turbine wheel as the 700s; the 240s used .63 A/R turbine hsgs while the 700s used .48 hsgs. and there is usually a stamping on the turbine hsg giving it's A/R.

finding a .63 turbine hsg that isn't cracked is almost as hard to do as finding a 90+ manifold that isn't cracked.

[The Aspirator]

Hummm, OK. This is what I'm going to do... I will use the turbine housing from my spare turbo (.63a/r) on my center section, and get a ford .60a/r compressor housing and wheel. It seems that I can retain the turbine wheel that's on my current turbo, and that will work with the .63 exhaust section. And I can use the volvo wastegate setup too. Here is a pic of the tiny crack in my .63 turbine housing (click)

Now, about rebuilding:

Originally Posted by stealthfti

Since you are going to swap comp wheels, and will need a balance job....then have the turbo shop replace the bearings and seals when they do the rebalance. For all intents and purposes, you'll have a reman center section then. And chances are very good that the turbo shop will clean the wheels up nice and pretty too! [needed to get the balance right]

I searched abit looking for online shops but didn't come up with any prices. How much would the above job usually go for? Balance, bearings, seals? So you're saying that with a bad turbo that wiggles side to side (but doesn't touch) it can be rebuilt with just new bearings? Then it'll work again? Jeeze, I thought that meant it was toast. Please confirm.

Thanks again guys, you're all so smart compared to noobs like me!

John

that .63 housing with the tiny cracks should work fine. You might want to round out that wastegate hole and blend it a bit...just don't make it larger than the flapper. The flapper disc has made a pattern there for you to use as a guide: just stay inside the circle by about an eighth of an inch. that will improve wastegate flow.

to clarify: just because the shaft wiggles some does not mean that things are bad, or that they are junk. Preferably there will be very little side to side play. IF the play is enough so that the blades do contact the sides, that means that the wear is excessive: and new bearings are needed. If the blades touch the sides, that can be bad: if the blades are actually damaged. If you catch it at the point that the blades have just started touching the sides, but the blades haven't been worn down or chewed up, then you should be able to get it re-bearinged and sealed. If the blades are touching, it will be a judgement call on if the wheel is still useable...but if it's only been a light kissing, then the wheel should be reuseable.

I don't have prices to advise you on. SRK is in your neck of the woods; he might have some turbo shop contacts. Anyone else have suggestions??

Look in the yellow pages for a diesel injection service/turbo repair shop; if they rebuild turbos for the big rigs, they can do your little Garrett.

Get some ideas on the cost of going that route. If you already have the ford turbo for the comp hsg and wheel, the turbo shop should be able to do the swap for you. If you don't have the ford turbo yet, they might be able to supply you the parts: perhaps a used comp housing and wheel; or maybe a used housing and a new wheel.

Prices on doing this swap/upgrade can vary quite a bit...so I would suggest getting a couple of quotes. Check with Herman at Cherry Turbos. And there are some turbo shops like Majestic Turbos in Waco texas that will redo your unit however you want [a customer of mine had them redo his unit...base price was $275 then (2 yrs ago); and with a few extra things needed, the total came out to be just under $400; with a 1 yr warranty]. time and freight can become factors; which is partly why I suggested checking into a local diesel turbo shop. Their thing is usually to repair stuff; not just bolt on new ones. Repairing what you have could be relatively inexpensive; or you might find out that getting a reman unit from an outfit might be cheaper. Too many variables to say which way is best to go; you'll have to do some walkin' an' talkin'.

[linuxman51]

some clarifications on garrett turbos re stealth's comments:
garrett turbos are independantly balanced (i.e. the turbine shaft is balanced, and the compressor wheel is balanced, and then they're balanced together and rotated as needed). So basically as long as its not visibly out of balance (you spin it and it ends up rolling back and forth or something) its alright. I've had my hand in more than one turbo rebuild without balancing and they're still going strong (one is in fact quieter now than it was before).

if the blades can touch the housing odds are the turbo is junk, esp if its on the car.. if they can, they will and 90% of the time already have. (hate it, cold hard truth tho :( ).

Mitsu turbos are NOT independantly balanced and should definitly be taken to get rebalanced when being rebuilt.

housings can and have frequently (mine was for my gn compressor) machined out for bigger nastier wheels, both turbine and compresssor.

All kinds of neat things concerning turbos, but its not rocket science, a bit more care is required (obviously, they spin at obscene speeds) than say on a wheel bearing job, but its certainly not black magic