Woodgas 240 needs more power

[Dutch John]

All,

I converted a '91 240 GL with B230F engine to wood and woodgas as alternative fuel:







However, woodgas is a poor gas. It contains 35% less energy compared to gasoline. And the generatorunit weighs a lot. Max speed is about 100 km/h. I estimate to have 40 hp left.

My question: Is is possible to add a turbo to gain a little more power. High rpm is not possible because of the slow burning gas. I need torque between 2000 and 3000 rpm. Guess a normal Volvo turbo will not do. Could anyone calculate what smaller turbotype can be used. Woodgas can handle a compresion of 15:1 without detonation.

Where to take the oil from; and what about the return? Also a point to consider: there is engine vacuum needed at the gas/air mixer (the thing with the Mickey Mouse ears). The turbo is exposed to this vacuum. Will it draw oil through the seals?

When driving on woodgas, the ecu's are cut off. An older TZ-28-H is the ignition, because it can easy be advanced. When driving on petrol, the ecu's come in, but I hardly drive on petrol anymore.

Regards,
Dutch John
Netherlands

[2turbotoys]

[jimjoebobfunk]

Wow. I looked at that and thought of back to the future steam train. Then photoshop, then just wow. Again.

I'm sure some Einstein will pipe in here sooner.. or later.

[Fivehundred]

If you add a turbo into the mix then the engine won't always see vacuum. Per definition the inlet side of the engine will be pressurised. In more conventional fuel setups this is compensated for using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. It can be a real issue even when converting to LPG. Is your wood gas delivery system capable of delivering fuel into a positive pressure inlet manifold?

Would it not be easier to simply up the compression ratio and resign yourself to using high octane petrol when you do use the car on petrol?

Originally Posted by Dutch John

All,

I converted a '91 240 GL with B230F engine to wood and woodgas as alternative fuel:


However, woodgas is a poor gas. It contains 35% less energy compared to gasoline. And the generatorunit weighs a lot. Max speed is about 100 km/h. I estimate to have 40 hp left.

My question: Is is possible to add a turbo to gain a little more power. High rpm is not possible because of the slow burning gas. I need torque between 2000 and 3000 rpm. Guess a normal Volvo turbo will not do. Could anyone calculate what smaller turbotype can be used. Woodgas can handle a compresion of 15:1 without detonation.

Where to take the oil from; and what about the return? Also a point to consider: there is engine vacuum needed at the gas/air mixer (the thing with the Mickey Mouse ears). The turbo is exposed to this vacuum. Will it draw oil through the seals?

When driving on woodgas, the ecu's are cut off. An older TZ-28-H is the ignition, because it can easy be advanced. When driving on petrol, the ecu's come in, but I hardly drive on petrol anymore.

Regards,
Dutch John
Netherlands

[2manyturbos]

It can be done with a little rework. If you set up the turbo just like any 740/940 turbocharger system is done from the factory, it will work fine. Your gas/air mixer will have to be upstream of the turbocharger along with the air mass meter. Then, it will always see vacuum. As long as the gas/air mixer isn't a huge restriction, the turbo will not see any more vacuum than it does in a typical install and will work fine. You do not want turbo charger seals to operate in a high vacuum situation. It takes very little vacuum to cause seal leakage.

BTW, nice work. I've heard of this being popular in Europe during WWII. I have never seen one of these conversions.

[Dutch John]

Originally Posted by Fivehundred

Is your wood gas delivery system capable of delivering fuel into a positive pressure inlet manifold?

The engine vacuum draws an creates the gas in the gasifier.

The mixer needs vacuum to mix gas and air. Actually, the Mickey Mouse ears are vacuum governors. Both of them are connected to a second air valve. When the vacuum in the gas line from behind is bigger than the vacuum from the air filter, this second valve chokes the air untill both vacuums are equal again. Gas and air have to be mixed 1:1.

The inlet manifold will, can and must be pressurized by the turbo, while the turbo pulls vacuum in the mixers. So far so good, but when the gas and airvalve (simultanously commanded) close to idle, the vacuum is also in the turbo. Compare it to a turbo between carburettor and manifold. Also asking for trouble. I am looking for a solution: Now I have the original air valve in the manifold given about 30 degrees advantage compared to the mixer valves. This can be less. Thus not creating a huge vacuum at the mixer at idle, but have it "softend" by the original valve. But some vacuum will always exsist at idle.

Am I right that the vacuum will be the bottleneck? Would there be a way to bypass the turbo when vacuum occurs?

Unfortunately, increasing compression will not bring enough power.

The air mass sensor has become part of the mixer.

Regards,
DJ

The first gas is flared, untill the temperature is right. Gives nice views at night:

[Fivehundred]

I'm not sure I have got my head round this properly. If you're mixing air and gas, which is then drawn into the engine would it be possible to set up a small supercharger between the mixing chamber and the manifold. If the mixture is effectively sucked from the the mixer then it will see vacuum.

It would be easier to control than a turbo. Presumably the lack of power isn't a huge issue around town? Get the car onto an open road, flick a switch and hey presto the mixture is delivered under pressure.

[Ruben]

Or maybe just up the CR to 11.something:1 with a 531 head, find a nice cam that will work for you, fit a turbo exhaust or a simons/ipd sport exhaust (2.5") efan and some other small mods. Maybe a header... And the new B230 N/A chip from fred.
Should be able to get you the 30HP you'd like and will not screw up your vacuum fuel mixing..

[Midgie245R]

Wow this thing is phenomenal!

[Jordan]

Lol, convert to gas for more power!

Seriously though, have you thought of a super charger? It'd have to be small since you only have a 40 horse credit, but it could be worth it.

[the poi]

Just turbocharge the car as normal, and draw the gas in from before the turbo, just like a draw through carb.

[tjts1]

How long does it take to get that thing fired up in the morning? How about range? I thought this technology was dead with the end of WWII. Did the Germans invade again?

[Dutch John]

Originally Posted by Fivehundred

I'm not sure I have got my head round this properly. If you're mixing air and gas, which is then drawn into the engine would it be possible to set up a small supercharger between the mixing chamber and the manifold. If the mixture is effectively sucked from the the mixer then it will see vacuum.

It would be easier to control than a turbo. Presumably the lack of power isn't a huge issue around town? Get the car onto an open road, flick a switch and hey presto the mixture is delivered under pressure.

Fivehundred,
Your image on the principle is right. But superchargers are very rare here. Do you know a reliable firm where to purchase it? How do superchargers handle a backfire? When the supercharger is not on, how does the mixture pass it?

tjts1,
It takes 2-4 minutes to fire the generator and drive. Range with a full fuel bin is about 100 km. No, the Germans did not invade....... Actually the knowledge on woodgasifying is kept alive by a group enthousiasts in Finland. That is where I got part of my plans. Have a look at some Finnish setups:
http://www.ekoautoilijat.fi/tekstit/kalustoesittely.htm

Ruben,
Your are going too fast for a layman like me... I am a quick lerner, but not that quick. Could you explain with a few more words?

I like this forum! The woodgasvirus is contagious, but turbocharging is catching me too!

Here another pic: the gasifier is on the right; the big part is the fuel bin. In the middle is the prefilter; a cyclone. It is amazing how much dust it takes out. On the left is the main, hot filter, where the gas is dry filtered. It goes in above dewpoint temperature. The cooler/condensor, to take out the water, is on the front of the car.

[Ruben]

Originally Posted by Ruben

Or maybe just up the CR to 11.something:1 with a 531 head, find a nice cam that will work for you, fit a turbo exhaust or a simons/ipd sport exhaust (2.5") efan and some other small mods. Maybe a header... And the new B230 N/A chip from fred.
Should be able to get you the 30HP you'd like and will not screw up your vacuum fuel mixing..

Well if you buy a head from a B230FB engine you have a slightly better head. A B230FB puts ou 131 HP if I'm correct, compared to a B230F with only +- 116 that's a 15HP difference even with a slightly lower CR.
If you take it to a machine shop and let them skim the head to raise your CR. Buy a cometic headgasket for tight squish.
The 531 and higher CR should help you quite a bit and quite cheap as well.

If you need the engine to be a bit tourquier try a T cam perhaps but the M cam is a already a very low revving cam.

You can buy a bigger exhaust to help flow and gain a few HP. If use a header (spaghetti uitlaatspruistuk) that should help quite a bit. But the stock manifold might be ok if you can't use the engine above 3000 rpm. In that case just a bigger exhaust and downpipe like JT exhaust//abgastechnik or SAM sells for the Volvo original cup might be ok.

Small things like an efan from a 940. Better ecu. Change the intake piping/tubing for something that will cause less turbulence.

Chips from Fredrik will help you as well. I think his chip will give you a 10-15HP gain.

The turbo seems not to be the best option if you can't figure out how to let the engine/wood gas setup handle something else but vacuum.

If you stay N/A you don't have to change how you are getting the gas in the engine.

edit: someone on marktplaats sells new mercedes superchargers.

[Dutch John]

Thanks Ruben,

That clears the sky. Other ecu's or chips will not do for the woodgas system because it uses the extra TZ-28-H ignition from an old model. The ecu's are too smart for woodgas and surely will get confused by the lambda sond. And woodgas needs 20-30 degrees more ignition advance. The dumb TZ-28-H can do that, manually. All power to the ecu's is cut off when driving on woodgas.

[Fivehundred]

A lot of Ex BMW Mini Eaton superchargers come up for sale, check out UK Ebay. I don't know if it is actually a better solution, it just stuck me as an alternative, They are set up with an internal vacuum operated bypass, primarily to aid economy when cruising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_type_supercharger

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...gers/index.htm

[Janspeed]

you can also find some superchargers from a M-B 200CLK Kompressor. They pop up on the second hand market every now and then.

[pwschuh]

Wow, that an impressive looking hippie-power set-up. Clean install, but I can see why you'd want more power. How much weight did it add and what did you do for rear springs??

[GreatDaneShane]

know anyone with the last name DeVries?

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by Dutch John

tjts1,
It takes 2-4 minutes to fire the generator and drive. Range with a full fuel bin is about 100 km. No, the Germans did not invade....... Actually the knowledge on woodgasifying is kept alive by a group enthousiasts in Finland. That is where I got part of my plans. Have a look at some Finnish setups:
http://www.ekoautoilijat.fi/tekstit/kalustoesittely.htm

Very cool. Your fabrication skills look top notch.

[boostdemon]

I'd say that qualifies for the "EcoBricks" club... nicely done sir!
I've seen a green 240 on youtube with a much more crude setup but worked well just the same. Always though there might be a better fuel source than wood though.

[kyote]

Originally Posted by GreatDaneShane

know anyone with the last name DeVries?

I'm a DeVries. And I ****ing love you! Seriously!

[745 TurboGreasel]

As i understand this is much like an LPG conversion, with an added part on the back which 'refines' fuel on demand.
if this is the case, and output is low, that comes from a shortage in fuel supply.
To get more fuel, you have to smoke more wood faster...by turbocharging that reaction~!
Like so...

see http://www.nyethermodynamics.com/
later, when you crave yet still more power, think about twin turbos front and rear.

Your work looks top notch

[Janspeed]

Originally Posted by kyote

I'm a DeVries. And I ****ing love you! Seriously!

'de Vries' is the single most common family name in NL, just a silly factoid.

about the setup on the back of the car: why don't you make that a stationary setup and cram the gas coming from the woodchips into an LPG-tank? Use 2 or 3 LPG tanks that you can easily switch ( with some snapon couplings, like they use on forklifttrucks). That way you don't need to drag the whole setup around everywhere you go and the aerodynamics will be restored. (this all takes power you would really like to use for driving the car.)

If you can manage to actually fill the LPG tanks to a reasonable pressure then you can also add a compressor/turbo for more power because the pressure in the tank helps to deliver fuel to the engine.

[Ruben]

Good idea!