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19t>>15g

MrSteve said:
So you guys are saying take a 15G, have a compressor wheel of choice (19t, etc) put on the center section and the compressor housing machined to match the new wheel? Sounds fun to me.
Click to expand...

yeah, +1. we asked around to have that done on a T3, but over here no one will do that.

the 19T is a good turbo. But i wouldn't keep upgrading the compressor only, the exhaust side wants some flow too. better step up to the TD05 series if you want 300+ hp (guestimate...).
 
Did you have that done locally? Looks like a 3" v-band. I have both flat and conical housings in my parts stash.

blkaplan said:
The conical exhaust housing is pretty bad compared to the straight exhaust housing.

I have been told the angled is even better but never very good for use in rwd apps.

This is my attempt to improve the straight.

Its still a work in progress

110097958.jpg
Click to expand...
 
lookforjoe said:
No, they bend the stock rods because they can't handle that much pressure/boost at low rpm, nothing to do with the tune. You can only torque the (stock) whiteblock motor so far under 2500
Click to expand...

So, therefore, you use the tune to limit the power output. After all, that is the reason why people get their calibration, "tuned", to get more power or less power depends on their need.


lookforjoe said:
This is what it's meant to run with.. your can see the difference between my straight outlet (13/15/16t) and the late 19T angle outlet

XC19TDP0007.jpg
Click to expand...

Personally, I think that 180 degree bend hurts more flow than just the flat flange housing. The angle of the housing is going to matter much more to FWD guys than RWD guys.
 
BDKR said:
If what you say about whiteblock motors is true, then it's due to some other factor/behaviour in/of the whiteblock that can only be looked at as a liability. If this is the case, has anyone identified it?.

My guess would be that the ignition timing is too advanced for the amount of air that turbo is flowi
Click to expand...



Yes, the rods are weak. Higher RPM's can handle it, it's just excessive torque @ low rpm - it's no different than NOS - you wouldn't want a sudden massive increase @ low rpm, it just can't handle it.
 
tryingbe said:
So, therefore, you use the tune to limit the power output. After all, that is the reason why people get their calibration, "tuned", to get more power or less power depends on their need.
Click to expand...

Correct. The point is that the 19T produces large amounts of power early. You need a tune/MBC/IEBC that will PREVENT high boost @ low RPMS, all the same thing.
 
740Weapon said:
Thats right.

Swapped in a 19t compressor today into my conical 15g exhaust housing.

Compared to the full 15g run the same day, the additional power is astonishing... i mean astonishing.

IMO this is THE turbo anyone with a stockish long block should be running.

Quick spool+devastating top end.

I broke something in my drivetrain tonight during the test ride...on street tires. that says something considering i beat the bag out of the car at the strip all last year without really breaking anything. My hope is center support bearing death.
Click to expand...

Can't wait to see numbers...

Finally someone with the same setup as me except a different longblock, chassis, and engine management :lol:

It is interesting to see that your thread was started with the sole purpose of expressing the profound difference in *compressor wheels* but by the second page there are a few posts doubting that it is much of a difference. I personally can't wait to see how my car does with the angle-outlet housing, I think we will see some very encouraging results from that. Speaking of which... I need to find a flange for that damned thing.

BDKR said:
That's not really true brother. That's like saying my heart has a hard time at rest and is less likely to fail then during my daily 4 mile runs. On the surface of it alone, the statement doesn't make sense unless you have no idea of the forces at work on the bottom end of an engine.

As the revs increase, the amount of force working on the rods is going to increase. There is no way around it. Additionally, the increase is far greater on boosted motors.

If what you say about whiteblock motors is true, then it's due to some other factor/behaviour in/of the whiteblock that can only be looked at as a liability. If this is the case, has anyone identified it?.

My guess would be that the ignition timing is too advanced for the amount of air that turbo is flowing at that RPM and the resulting detonation is what's bending the rods.

Didn't see that problem on my 13c/15g Frankenturbo with 2.4 and that thing was spooling hard by 2K if I had my foot in it. :oogle:
Click to expand...

I think it's something to do with cylinder pressure and piston speed, coupled with sensitivity to ignition timing. The 4 valve chambers are very fast-burning chambers, the 850's rod-stroke ratio sucks, and cylinder pressures are very high with high boost levels at low RPM. One degree of ignition angle means a whole heck of a lot more on an 850 than on a huge open chambered 8 valve redblock, and a lot more than at high RPM when you have more overall advance and the piston is moving a lot faster. This in addition to the fact that with a very heavily bleeded or blocked wastegate signal spells very very tough to control boost spiking characteristics above a certain boost level, really makes it a dangerous turbo if you don't know what's up at all times. (Say, 20-24 psi peak pressure on a 6 psi wastegate, now we're talking danger, have seen 28-29 psi spikes on my old 850).

So yes, you can get a more thorough and logical explanation to suit your understanding of engine operation, but the bottom line remains that the 19T is a dangerous beast in a whiteblock application :) It is also capable of a lot though.

I have a suspicion that we will see some good numbers of it this year in a redblock app now that there are two functioning setups with drivers behind the wheel who don't mind going to the track or dyno.

L8 Apeks, I would suggest your setup would benefit pretty greatly from the upgrade. The 19T is at the peak of bolt-on performance and I think you would be surprised as to the difference from a 15G given your appraisal of the situation ;)
 
TD04HL-13G-6cm2
360 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
324 practical max CFM

TH04HL-15G-6cm2
428 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
405 practical max CFM

TD04HL-19T-6cm2
500 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
430 practical max CFM

...from Stealth 316's site. The jump from 15G>19T is smaller than the jump from 13C>15G...it's an improvement for sure, but my only beef with the 19T is cost and availability. Very rarely do they come up for sale, and new ones are close to $1000 on eBay sometimes.

Hard to turn away a Holset that makes very similar numbers and costs $165, and is available everywhere.
 
740Weapon said:
and as far as i am concerned a holset is a terrible choice (for dragracing). you can't spool the things properly off the line so any additional amount of horsepower they can make doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...



Eh.. I woudln't exactly say that.. see with our small tired cars it's kinda easy to overtorque the car coming out of the starting beams and with a TD04HL turbine housing of even 7cm you're choking the exhaust stream big time past 5000 which is where you end up going through the gears on a drag run, especially 1/4 mile tracks where wind resistance becomes even more of an issue.

So to say a holset is terrible for drag racing would be an un-true statement.

Pair your 19T against my 60-1 in equally setup 240s with the same tires etc..
up to the 330 mark it'd probably be reaction time and shift points.. but after the 1/8 mile I'd probably start walking you by a half car because I can move more air into the engine with a properly sized compressor housing, and I'll have less EBR to face once I get past 6800 where I usually shift. Ideally I'd trap a speed 2-3 mph faster.. which would indicate more HP which is kinda what I'd want with a car with small tires on a dragstrip.
 
Im hanging out with the Rice Krispy dudes Snap and Krackle around 12psi on 15g. Stock 2.4 with bigger injectors. 15g hits fuel cut too No point in going bigger unless some tuning is done. I dont want to hang out with Pop.
 
to l8:

one could say the same about a 15g, which CAN cost more than an equivalent t3, t3/t4 or holset

to each his own, but from what i've seen, the 19t is clearly bigger and better for a redblock than a 15g, so i agree with the op
 
L8 APEKS said:
but my only beef with the 19T is cost and availability. Very rarely do they come up for sale, and new ones are close to $1000 on eBay sometimes.
Click to expand...


I'm working to bring out some rebuilt 19T, for under $650.


Nice things about TD04HL type of turbos are, they are drop-in for 90+ or FWD guys with no modification needed or you can easily buy parts that are made for them.
 
L8 APEKS said:
TD04HL-13G-6cm2
360 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
324 practical max CFM

TH04HL-15G-6cm2
428 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
405 practical max CFM

TD04HL-19T-6cm2
500 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
430 practical max CFM

...from Stealth 316's site. The jump from 15G>19T is smaller than the jump from 13C>15G...it's an improvement for sure, but my only beef with the 19T is cost and availability. Very rarely do they come up for sale, and new ones are close to $1000 on eBay sometimes.
Click to expand...

I can assure you that the performance difference going from 15/16 to 19T is vastly superior to the 13g/15g upgrade, regardless of what is posted on stealth's site (not tested on a Volvo, as I'm sure you're aware - the characteristics of the mitsu V6's they're testing them on are quite different. Also, the late angle housings are 7cm2, not 6 as he tested. Brand new (sold as reman, of course) 19T's from the dealer are $695 wholesale. Cheaper than 18T's.
 
lookforjoe said:
Yes, the rods are weak. Higher RPM's can handle it, it's just excessive torque @ low rpm - it's no different than NOS - you wouldn't want a sudden massive increase @ low rpm, it just can't handle it.
Click to expand...

Still doesn't make sense, but that's cool. :) I still like the Whiteblock motors and Mitsu's. I have a Garrett now and I'm sure it's going to get closer to the promise land tho. :lol:

BDKR said:
My guess would be that the ignition timing is too advanced for the amount of air that turbo is flowing at that RPM and the resulting detonation is what's bending the rods.
Click to expand...

EricF said:
I think it's something to do with cylinder pressure and piston speed, coupled with sensitivity to ignition timing. The 4 valve chambers are very fast-burning chambers, the 850's rod-stroke ratio sucks, and cylinder pressures are very high with high boost levels at low RPM.One degree of ignition angle means a whole heck of a lot more on an 850 than on a huge open chambered 8 valve redblock, and a lot more than at high RPM when you have more overall advance and the piston is moving a lot faster. This in addition to the fact that with a very heavily bleeded or blocked wastegate signal spells very very tough to control boost spiking characteristics above a certain boost level, really makes it a dangerous turbo if you don't know what's up at all times. (Say, 20-24 psi peak pressure on a 6 psi wastegate, now we're talking danger, have seen 28-29 psi spikes on my old 850).
Click to expand...

It seems Eric that you agree with me. :rofl:

Just to make sure we are all cool, I'm still a fan of the TD04HL. A 19t on a Redblock even with an M cam would spell fun and giggles like it's going out of style. :)
 
Yeah, like I said...it's something to think about...but there are a lot of other viable options in the $700 range, ya know? Lots of comparing to do.

What T-brickers have posted numbers with this 19T unit? Doesn't seem to be very common.
 
L8 APEKS said:
TD04HL-13G-6cm2
360 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
324 practical max CFM

TH04HL-15G-6cm2
428 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
405 practical max CFM

TD04HL-19T-6cm2
500 max CFM @ 2.0 PR
430 practical max CFM

...from Stealth 316's site. The jump from 15G>19T is smaller than the jump from 13C>15G...it's an improvement for sure, but my only beef with the 19T is cost and availability. Very rarely do they come up for sale, and new ones are close to $1000 on eBay sometimes.

Hard to turn away a Holset that makes very similar numbers and costs $165, and is available everywhere.
Click to expand...

+1! The bang for buck ratio here is way out of whack. If you insist on staying with a Mitsu, you would be far better off with a TD05 setup.

For half as much money as people are talking about for the 19t, I built my Cossie hotside, .70 ar T04E 46 trim turbo and I have another 70 CFM flow potential at the least and perhaps more based on using the larger compressor housing. Never mind the fact that Cossie hotside is far superior to the TD04HL wich really looks to be smaller copy of it.
 
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