Converting to struts

[BB-Q]

Lately I've been starting to restore my front suspension and attempting to convert to rack and pinion steering on my 142.

This has brought to light a few problems, mainly:

Getting the steering rack in the correct position is awkward. It has to sit just a little too far forward. This can be offset with err, offset track rod eds a la 850/960. Nevertheless, it is not ideal.

With a RHD car getting the steering column in place is almost impossible. An additonal factor to consider is that I cannot place the turbo until I have finished the steering.

I can't have power steering without getting very imaginative. The steering rack I narrowed to suit the car is just 410mm between steering knuckles! Whilst narrowing a manual rack is easy, PAS rack have a ram built in to them and so are much more complex.

The stock crossmember/subframe makes getting the engine in and out a complete pain in the arse. You have to drop the crossmember first. This is with a B18 sump fitted.

The suspension arms are pretty feeble. They seem to be prone to failing if subjected to any uprated springs, shocks, sway bars. To compund this, mine are heavily corroded and replacements are expensive. Poly bushes for 142 lower arms cost slightly less than the Trade Deficit of a small, badly performing country (that'll be the UK then).

Lowering the car to the level I want it is proving very difficult due to the agricultural ground clearance. The spindles are desinged to make the car ride as high as possible. I would have to have dropped spindles made to get it down and retain some useable suspension and keep reasonable geometry.

So I was thinking that I may be better off transplanting a complete 240 setup in there (for those who suggested it in the past I have to concede that, yes- you told me so....). The track width of a 240 is only 20-30mm wider than a 140. Given that the 240 has wider wheels with less inset, I think it can be assumed that the difference in track is mainly due to wheel size and design (140 has 44m, 240 has 12mm).

The advantages as I see them are:

Whilst the track is very similar, the 240 chassis rails are further apart. This would allow me to place the shorter lower arm (roughly 85mm shorter taken from a drawing) pivot points on the outside of the chassis leg rather than underneath it. Whilst they'd still have to be in a position which would still allow me to mount the rack, I should be able to get the car a lot closer to terra firma.

I can use the stock steering rack, and so have power steering with the option of a quick rack later on (subject to JohnV and Fidel's afforts).

The 240 column sits a lot lower than the 140 one, and is almost a bolt in solution given that I would be using virtually stock 240 geometry.

I don't have to fabricate suspension arms, which is very time consuming and potentially expensive (poly bushes have to be found, parts require machining, ball joints require speccing and sourcing).

240 polys are cheaper!

I think I know where there's a dead 264 sitting in someone's back garden.

The only downside I can see is that I already have a 25mm IPD sway bar for the 140 that I obviously wouldn't be able to use with the 240 suspension, and shipping across the pond on oversized stuff like that is extortionate. Maybe Volvorsport would be willing to make me one? Eh Dave?

I had a whole list of pros and cons, but they've vacated my head now I've sat down to type them out. Must've had a senior moment......

Anyway- discuss? What have a glossed over, what have I missed? I don't pretend to be an expert at this stuff. Fixing broken cars at the roadside? Yes. Modifying stuff? I'm still on a very steep learning curve!

[Dr Dokeh]

Hey Mark, there's a 164 (T6! ) project with this being done on savarturbo that has quite a few pics that should give you a pretty good idea as to what's involved.

http://forum.savarturbo.se/viewtopic.php?t=21229

It seems like a pretty good plan, making compromises with the standard stuff given your goals with the car just seems silly.

[BB-Q]

The first guy (with the blue car) has turned that into a LOT of hard work! It's much easier to amke a new subframe than to replace the front chassis legs!

The guy on the last page is a lot closer to what I was thinking- he's still using the original legs.

Got to go- work beckons....

[945ti]

Buy early 242. Attach 140 front sheetmetal and cut accordingly.

Have 142 with struts and rack and pinion?

You could start with a non-rusty shell (we give those 70s 240s away it seems like), and if you are willing to put struts in a 140, putting 140 style sheetmetal on the front of a 240 and changing the rear trunk panel to use early 140 tail lamps and switching doors seems the less painful way to me.

If you are modifying the car to the point where the originality is not the object and adding a lot of 240 parts, would it not make sense to just use a 240?

Were it me, I'd convert it to LHD and use a 140 power steering box and all new everything. They drive pretty good with offset a-arm mounts, lowered with power steer. As good as a 240 with a nicer camber gain curve and faster tighter steering and better handling with softer wheel rate springs. All those joints like regular attention, but it isn't like it is your DD *shrug*. The center feel and driving is really about as good as a 240 with everything new/rebuilt wear items. You also lose less originality of the car I think, though LHD is we hope does not require extensive cutting.

[volvorsport]

ill make anything you want mark .

lets start with the steering , i can make the strut suspension into wishbones even if you use the std 240 bottom wishbone length and steering rack, thast pretty much locost suspension with a sierra high ratio rack .

i could even make the cross member for you too .

as a pointer , start thinking about this .

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.s...davesshop3.JPG

[BB-Q]

Originally Posted by 945ti

Buy early 242. Attach 140 front sheetmetal and cut accordingly.

Have 142 with struts and rack and pinion?

You could start with a non-rusty shell (we give those 70s 240s away it seems like), and if you are willing to put struts in a 140, putting 140 style sheetmetal on the front of a 240 and changing the rear trunk panel to use early 140 tail lamps and switching doors seems the less painful way to me.

If you are modifying the car to the point where the originality is not the object and adding a lot of 240 parts, would it not make sense to just use a 240?

Were it me, I'd convert it to LHD and use a 140 power steering box and all new everything. They drive pretty good with offset a-arm mounts, lowered with power steer. As good as a 240 with a nicer camber gain curve and faster tighter steering and better handling with softer wheel rate springs. All those joints like regular attention, but it isn't like it is your DD *shrug*. The center feel and driving is really about as good as a 240 with everything new/rebuilt wear items. You also lose less originality of the car I think, though LHD is we hope does not require extensive cutting.

1: We never got 242's over here. Hell, we never got 240 turbos.

2: If we did they'd all have rotted away by now.

3: I am NOT going LHD.

[John V, outside agitator]

Originally Posted by BB-Q

1: We never got 242's over here. Hell, we never got 240 turbos.

2: If we did they'd all have rotted away by now.

3: I am NOT going LHD.

Harumph, eh!

No theres some really fools over here in the US who think having RHD is "extra cool", and having driven LHD in a RHD country, and RHD in a LHD Continent, all i can say is NO F***ing way!


And whaddya mean you didn't get 242s, as in 2 door 240s?

[BB-Q]

Originally Posted by volvorsport

ill make anything you want mark .

lets start with the steering , i can make the strut suspension into wishbones even if you use the std 240 bottom wishbone length and steering rack, thast pretty much locost suspension with a sierra high ratio rack .

i could even make the cross member for you too .

as a pointer , start thinking about this .

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.s...davesshop3.JPG

Nice idea on the struts, Dave. If I go over to a 240 setup though I'll just stick with struts and get the coilover conversion kits for them- they're only about £20 a side.

What I'm trying to do is work out the most beneficial and cost effective way of doing this. The penny really dropped when I realised that I'd have to reposition the upper steering column- something I really wanted to avoid. The angle of the column is just too tight otherwise. The other option was to use a bevel gearbox from a Jap van. I bought one of those, but the column position is not much better than it was originally, so I'd have nowhere to put the turbo.

Back to square one.

If I stick with the stock setup I've got to build lower arms, have a slightly compromised steering rack, still have the column in the way and still have to drop the crossmember to remove and refit the engine.

With the 240 setup I can easily make a new crossmember to hold stuff in the stock 240 position and know it will work. I'll also have the benefit of power steering and a bit more room for the turbo, because everything is already designed to work together. I can also shape the new crossmember so that removing the engine is easier. The front brakes are being changed regardless, so that's not an extra expense, and the bushes to tighten up the 240 suspension are about a quarter fo the price of the 140 stuff.

There must be some cons I haven't spotted- I haven't properly thought this through yet, and really won't be able to properly until I can find a 240 to measure. Sadly, they're starting to get scarce too nowadays.

I know what I DO need Dave- and that's a T3 divided flange in mild steel.

[945ti]

You like doing everything the hard way then. Makes me feel old to see someone with that much energy.

Seriously though, buy 75-77 242 with no tin-worm LHD for like $100. Not like the parts to switch it to RHD don't interchange between all 2 series regardless of door #.

Weld in tail panel. Install good 142 doors if wing windows and 140 handles are to your taste.

Trim inner fenders and stick 140 sheetmetal on the front.

I just think it is hilarious that people want a-arms in a 240....ok...buy a 140!

Then they want struts and rack and pinion in a 140...ok...buy a 240!

Early 240 and late 140 might as well be the same car except for the front suspension, which you wish to switch between them.

For this amount of work, it is comparable to making a 244 into a 242.

I'd prefer RHD in an RHD country too, but I'd also prefer not having a clusterfsck of an engine bay that is the RHD volvo RWD cars. But really, what is there on that 140 will handle real nice OEM (as good as the 240 parts with the right work done). If poly bushings hurt you cost wise, putting strut everything in a 140 is not the conclusion I naturally draw. I'm also pretty sure the guts for the power rack are LHD and RHD specific.

People have made cars with steering boxes and a-arms handle pretty darn nice for years. What makes you believe that it can't be done? For that matter, those a-arms there arguably will handle better than the strut setup. I'd restore it, build a hot B20 for it and see if you actually, like the car. If not, sell it. If so, get crazier. A good 140 with a 200hp B20 and above mentioned front end work is actually hysterically fun.

[volvorsport]

I know what I DO need Dave- and that's a T3 divided flange in mild steel.

funny you should say that - ive just come back from belgium with a free holset .

its got a T3 divided flange .

ive got plenty of std T3 flanges , i might weld a 10mm bar in between one for ya .

[Mattis]

Originally Posted by BB-Q

The guy on the last page is a lot closer to what I was thinking- he's still using the original legs.

Looks like he just cut the mounting brackets off the 140 front crossmember and welded them over on the 240 crossmember, looks like an easy thing to do..
I say do it, since you are tube framing the front end, you might aswell change the front axle while your at it + I imagine you need all the room you can get to fit the turbo and header.

[BB-Q]

Originally Posted by Mattis

Looks like he just cut the mounting brackets off the 140 front crossmember and welded them over on the 240 crossmember, looks like an easy thing to do..
I say do it, since you are tube framing the front end, you might aswell change the front axle while your at it + I imagine you need all the room you can get to fit the turbo and header.

Thank you Mattis- at least someone else can see my point of view!

[BB-Q]

Originally Posted by volvorsport

I know what I DO need Dave- and that's a T3 divided flange in mild steel.

funny you should say that - ive just come back from belgium with a free holset .

its got a T3 divided flange .

ive got plenty of std T3 flanges , i might weld a 10mm bar in between one for ya .

Std T3 will do me- it's not difficult to weld in a divider.

[BB-Q]

Originally Posted by 945ti

You like doing everything the hard way then. Makes me feel old to see someone with that much energy.

It makes me tired thinking about it- I'm going to be 40 in 3 months time.

Originally Posted by 945ti

Seriously though, buy 75-77 242 LHD for like $100 here and put it on a ship.

Yeah, cos shipping it and import duties don't really cost £1K

Originally Posted by 945ti

Weld in tail panel. Install good 142 doors if wing windows and 140 handles are to your taste.

Trim inner fenders and stick 140 sheetmetal on the front.

I just think it is hilarious that people want a-arms in a 240....ok...buy a 140!

Then they want struts and rack and pinion in a 140...ok...buy a 240!

Early 240 and late 140 might as well be the same car except for the front suspension, which you wish to switch between them.

I'm really not going to argue with this- they really are similar cars. Except mine has 100's of hours of work invested in it already. It's not exactly stock, rmember? Back halfed and a narrowed 8.8 with adjustable four link? 10x15's under stock arches? Upright B234 engine and t5 'box? New floors, new sills, chassis reinforcements and ties?

Originally Posted by 945ti

For this amount of work, it is comparable to making a 244 into a 242.

I disagree- I hate doing bodywork. Fabrication, on the other hand, just takes a bit of time.

Originally Posted by 945ti

I'd prefer RHD in an RHD country too, but I'd also prefer not having a clusterfsck of an engine bay that is the RHD volvo RWD cars. But really, what is there on that 140 will handle real nice OEM (as good as the 240 parts with the right work done). If poly bushings hurt you cost wise, putting strut everything in a 140 is not the conclusion I naturally draw.

Have you seen the cost of polys for a 140? and what would you like me to do about the rotten lower wishbones? I also need some coilovers for the front (they work out much the same price as new shocks and springs), so that isn't really part of the equation.

Originally Posted by 945ti

People have made cars with steering boxes and a-arms handle pretty darn nice for years. What makes you believe that it can't be done? For that matter, those a-arms there arguably will handle better than the strut setup.

I never said it couldn't be done and for that very reason was trying to stick with the original set up, but discovering just how bad the lower arms were was the straw that broke the camels back. That and realising that to have the main benefit I wanted from going rack and pinion- more room in the engine bay- I was going to have to lose another bit of originality by moving the column.

Let me find a picture that will explain it better than I can:

[BB-Q]

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator

And whaddya mean you didn't get 242s, as in 2 door 240s?

Correct. And we only got 142's for a year- 40 years ago, hence the somewhat rotten one I jumped on as it was the only one I'd ever seen.

[Mattis]

This might also be a solution to the space problems, mounting the turbo sideways infront of the engine.


After a bit of browsing in your project tread I think it may be a tight sqeeze to get an "regular configuration header" and a big turbo to fit in that gap even if you use a 240 front axle, but Im not sure... But a 240 front axle would take up way less space than the 140 axle anyways.

[BB-Q]

I don't think I quite have enough room at the front for that, but I'll have a look because it's a bloody good idea!

[DNAsEqUeNcE]

Good Lord, Mattis! What is that crazy contraption you posted a picture of?

[Mattis]

You run the exhaust over to the intake side of the engine also (and run the exhaust on that side of the transmission tunnel/car). that way you can free up even more space to the steering etc.. But it might be hard on the timing-belt considering there will be a glowing downpipe infront of it (I guess you can solve that with heatshield infront the timing-belt and wrap the downpipe) also changing the belt will requre removing the downpipe.

[Mattis]

Originally Posted by DNAsEqUeNcE

Good Lord, Mattis! What is that crazy contraption you posted a picture of?

A volvo pv

[DNAsEqUeNcE]

Linky?

[Mattis]

Originally Posted by DNAsEqUeNcE

Linky?

http://forum.savarturbo.se/viewtopic.php?t=7326

65 pages, in swedish..

[Fivehundred]

Buy a scrap 240 and transplant everything forward of the bulkhead. The bulkheads are essentially the same so it is doable without major grief, major work yes, but doable

[BB-Q]

I'm not changing the chassis legs for the sake of modifying or fabricating a crossmember. That just doesn't make sense.

[Fivehundred]

Originally Posted by BB-Q

I'm not changing the chassis legs for the sake of modifying or fabricating a crossmember. That just doesn't make sense.

Yeah right, cos this whole car modifying lark is so sensible

Where's your sense of adventure????