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Old 05-30-2004, 01:06 PM   #1
Two 87s
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Question Talk me into the T5 swap

I just bought a manual 240 turbo wagon to replace the 940 turbo sedan that my wife drives. (I'm happy enough with the AW71 in my 764ti for now, but my wife demands a manual transmission.) Well, the clutch pedal is really stiff and engages really close to the floor. This was tuff240's brown wagon that I bought from jackbombay, and tuff240 had put a Centerforce clutch in it a while back. I'm starting to think that clutch may be on it's last legs. (I've already tried adjusting the clutch cable and can't get any better performance from it.)

As far as I'm concerned, that leaves me with a choice. I can either replace the clutch with a stock Volvo clutch or replace the entire transmission with a T5.

Either way, I'll be doing the work myself. I'm sure I can do either one (I've done all my own engine and suspension work for the last few years). The car currently runs a selectable 8/15 psi of boost on the B21FT. I know there's a danger that the M46 will eventually go.

With replacing all of the parts that could possibily be worn on the stock/CF clutch, I'm looking at around $500. With the T5 swap, I'm looking at more like $1500 plus the cost of the tranny. (That includes an aluminum flywheel from v-performance, an aftermarket shifter, bellhousing adapter, throwout bearing, pilot bearing, slider yoke, a custom driveshaft locally (estimated at a conservative $200), clutch, pressure plate, modified fork, and speedometer adapter.) My estimates may be a little high, but that's good, as far as I'm concerned.

So the question is: which should I do? If I can get all the parts together, it seems like an equal amount of labor to do each one, and the T5 swap has been tested quite a bit now. The T5 is more expensive, of course. Is it safer than the risk of sticking with a M46 that has an unknown number of miles left in it?

I'm leaning towards the T5, obviously, but I'd like to hear some thoughts from you guys. We've still got the 950 turbo sedan to drive while the swap is done, but I need to get the whole thing finished in the next two months, since I'm moving at the end of July.

Thanks,
Aaron
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:22 PM   #2
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I think it boils down like this:

Completed T5 swaps: Atleast 8
Getrags: 1

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE MY T5!!! The gearing is perfect, everything is perfect.
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:44 PM   #3
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it's a stiff center force clutch and if it was worn out it would be disengaging near the top of the pedal stroke (seen this alot) not the bottom.

go T5 if ya want, or covert the M46 to hydro operation
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Old 05-30-2004, 05:33 PM   #4
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goddamn, after driving a 242 for a while and getting back in my car, the damned hydro clutch feels so goood!!! it's so easy to engage the clutch! The getrag swap really is pretty simple, and easy on a 240 too... a little bit harder on my car.
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Old 05-30-2004, 06:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravennexus
it's a stiff center force clutch and if it was worn out it would be disengaging near the top of the pedal stroke (seen this alot) not the bottom.

go T5 if ya want, or covert the M46 to hydro operation

my thoughts too. go hydro. master and slave from a 740 and pedals from a 260.
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Old 05-30-2004, 07:09 PM   #6
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I recently swapped my 17 valve 740 to an M46 with the hydraulic clutch and an aftermarket stock type clutch with grippier material. I'd suggest this type of clutch over stock volvo. The stock one I'm guessing is meant to deal with stock hp and running 15 psi of boost isn't quite stock. My clutch is great since it's a stock style but grippy because it can be all civilized when needed (a slight bit more work but barely noticable) and a realy barnstormer when you give it. Can you say rubber first (if you get traction you launch), hard rubber second (howlin away) and a very large loud chirp going into third. Imagine that clutch with a turbo motor maybe making more than my modded 16 valve.

James (mmm grippy clutch and crappy old bald rear tires)
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Old 05-30-2004, 07:10 PM   #7
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Hmm I forgot to sign in but I'm the 126 valve 740 guy. If anyone is interested I will talk to my tranny guys about which clutch I bought again I totally forgot the brand.
James
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Old 05-30-2004, 08:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoop Dougy Doug
I think it boils down like this:

Completed T5 swaps: Atleast 8
Getrags: 1

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE MY T5!!! The gearing is perfect, everything is perfect.
wow.. is this some sort of competition? getrags should be 3 (count peter linssen, ben, and adam...4 counting kiri, but the car is not driveable yet)... at least 3

-patg
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Old 05-30-2004, 10:49 PM   #9
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Wow... I didn't mean to start a war between the Getrag and T5 folks. I'm leaning towards the T5 if I go with a non-Volvo tranny. I'm sure the aftermarket for the T5 is much larger.

Lots of people suggesting that I go for a hydraulic clutch. I've got this car, as well as an '87 240 with the M47, and my mother has an '85 740 turbo with the M46. I'm not sure whether these other two are hydraulic or cable, but as a comparison, the clutches on the other two are much easier to disengage. I'll check the '87 240 sedan tomorrow. I thought it was cable, though, and its clutch is really easy to disengage. If cable is capable of being smooth and not too hard on the leg muscles, I'm gonna stick with that, whether I go T5 or stick with the M46. I like the simplicity.

I've thought it over and the whole thing is basically gonna come down to money. If I can afford the T5 swap, I'm gonna do it. I'm sure it'll be much better in the long run. I should know by next week.

Aaron
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Old 05-31-2004, 12:33 AM   #10
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Since you mentioned money, I'd say go for the T5, it's easy to find, cheap, and parts will be a lot easier to find come rebuild time.

I bought a new clutch cable for my install, I've driven some Volvo's with new cables and they where very smooth and easy, they get stiff and sticky when old. When it wears out I'll likely go hydro.
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Old 05-31-2004, 01:35 AM   #11
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Default T-5 Recommend

I recently installed a T-5z into my 82 242 ti, using the adapter from v-performance and the clutchnet pp and clutch. I am totally impressed with the improvement over the M-46 that I had in there. This transmission requires a much heavier pressure plate than the M-46 or a regular T-5. The T-5z has a 2.95 low gear vs 4.01? for the M-46, and 3.31? for the T-5. I don't think a lady would enjoy driving this setup without the hydro clutch. The close ratio trans is a blast to drive tho. No holes between the gears and it shifts great.
I also need to mention that a lot of the people who have done the T-5 swap have had a few problems. When I first put mine in, I could not shift into reverse without shutting the car off. This eventually improved as the clutch wore til it shifts fine when cold, and as long as you put it in a forward gear first, it shifts to reverse fine when it is hot. I believe this problem can be attributed to the clutchnet clutch being .335 thick, compressing to .315. The Volvo plate is .315. I think the extra .020 of the clutchnet plate is enough to turn the input shaft of the trans, causing the shifting problems til the clutch wears. The one other problem that I have is a vibration under hard decelleration. Since I drive in the mountains a lot, using the engine as a brake, this is especially annoying to me. The guys running the T-5 do not report this vibration however, so it might be a T-5z thing. If I solve the vibration problem, I would have nothing but rave reviews for the conversion!!
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Old 05-31-2004, 02:26 AM   #12
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Default T-5

t-5 in and love it for under 1000.00
inculding World Class T-5 (lucky junk yard find)
my wife loves driving my 82' 242 (ceterforce pp ,6 puck clutch net disc, new clutch cable)
only thing is the noise under hard decelleration ,but its not as loud as a over worked M-46.

tony
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Old 05-31-2004, 02:45 AM   #13
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It sounds like the clutch is healthy, its just a matter of getting used to a heavy duty pressure plate. I'd say ask Pat (tuff240) first if it always acted like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it has. Also, could the cable have stretched and be near breaking or something like that? that could explain some of it also...High performance clutches can act like this sometimes..

-Andy
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Old 05-31-2004, 03:10 AM   #14
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I put a new clutch cable in it just before I sold it, ~200 miles on the cable when the car left my possesion. The clutch was always heavy the whole time I had the car, but never slipped. FWIW I think the car would be nicer with a different clutch, throw a T5 in there and it would be real nice, no more electric OD...
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Old 05-31-2004, 03:37 AM   #15
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by volvo9
Since you mentioned money, I'd say go for the T5, it's easy to find, cheap, and parts will be a lot easier to find come rebuild time.

I bought a new clutch cable for my install, I've driven some Volvo's with new cables and they where very smooth and easy, they get stiff and sticky when old. When it wears out I'll likely go hydro.
60-80 bucks per tranny for getrag (not we have possession of 4 getrag 265 trannies.. pick n pull, baby!) 150-170 for adapter plate and pilot bearing bushing, 150-200 for clutchnet disc (375 for pressure plate and disc), 150 for driveshaft (includes new support bearing and bushing), 30-50 for welding plate to tranny cross member, 50-80 for bellhousing holes = 590 US bucks

i was going to go with the T5, but the v8 t5's are nowhere to be seen at the pick n pull.. what can i say.. you can find us at the pick n pull. i'll stop now. this is a T5 thread, not a getrag thread. *zips*

-patg
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Old 05-31-2004, 04:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 916volvosport
wow.. is this some sort of competition? getrags should be 3 (count peter linssen, ben, and adam...4 counting kiri, but the car is not driveable yet)... at least 3

-patg
so 5 counting mine, i didn't do it thought the previous owner did it and it was done by the guy who did the first adapter plates at MVS
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Old 05-31-2004, 05:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravennexus
so 5 counting mine, i didn't do it thought the previous owner did it and it was done by the guy who did the first adapter plates at MVS
soon to be counting me.. i'm almost done.. just gotta do the driveshaft.. do you have any pictures by any chance? :-)

-patg
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Old 05-31-2004, 06:58 AM   #18
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i've added a few to the end of the gallery. ignore the oil, looks like the 265 is leaking (like there renowned for)

http://www.pbase.com/ravennexus/242&page=all
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Old 05-31-2004, 07:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravennexus
i've added a few to the end of the gallery. ignore the oil, looks like the 265 is leaking (like there renowned for)

http://www.pbase.com/ravennexus/242&page=all
nice door panels :-) looks like my door panels.. yanked from a bertone :-) we replaced all easily accessed seals (speedo, front, shifter)

-patg
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Old 05-31-2004, 07:37 AM   #20
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haha you like them i aready got rid of the bertone seats cause there awefull, door panels are next i've got some stock 242 ones which i'll paint black.

sorry for going OT
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Old 05-31-2004, 07:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravennexus
haha you like them i aready got rid of the bertone seats cause there awefull, door panels are next i've got some stock 242 ones which i'll paint black.

sorry for going OT
man.. guess it just looks sick in my car.. 81 black 240 2-dr.. bertone front and rear seats and door panels.. limo tinted rear windows.. yeah.. now has bertone chrome mouldings.. bling bling
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Old 05-31-2004, 08:01 AM   #22
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there going as i ain't into huggy bear pimp style.

i'd quite fancy a T5 swap instead of getrag, with the one problem i have over you fellows . the T5 only came in ford cossies and TVR's over here, neither of which is good for one wallet .

where as getrags popup now and again for less money, i'll have to pull mine and see where is leaking from.
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Old 05-31-2004, 10:46 AM   #23
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As jackbombay said, the clutch cable is new (and looks it), but the clutch is still really tough and (dis)engages really close to the floor. I got it up on ramps a few days ago and tried to adjust the cable. There's no free play to speak of at the fork. So I adjusted it almost all the way one direction and still didn't notice any free play... but the clutch wouldn't disengage (grinding gears--eek!). So I adjusted back the other way, still trying to find some free play at the fork, and it's still just a tough clutch.

I have to be honest: I know hardly anything about the mechanics of a manual transmission. (Well, I've read the "theory" but I've never pulled a tranny or replaced a clutch.)

Patt (tuff240) said that when he put the CF clutch in, it was the only model CF sold for the Volvo (9" clutch on this one, I believe). He said it was no more than 10% to 15% stiffer than stock, if that.

I really don't know if it's just worn or what, or if I just don't know anything about adjusting the cable.

It's good to hear about the T5 swap being done for as little as $1000. That's really a whole lot better than my estimates. I know I need to find a tranny for a good price (anyone got any leads?) and then it's just a matter of getting all the other bits and pieces (looks like most of them can come from John Parker at v-performance).

I haven't read up on the Getrag swap, and my intention isn't to disparage it at all. The T5 tranny should be fairly plentiful near me, I'd think, whereas we don't see a lot of old BMWs or Volvos in the boneyard around here (redneck Kentucky).

My thinking is to go with a regular World Class T5 (not the Z), and to find a clutch/pressure plate that's a nice balance between the easy pedal of a stock clutch and the grippiness of a high performance clutch. I want it to have a fighting chance of holding around 15 psi of boost (maybe a little more eventually) while not killing the legs for in-town driving.

Thanks for all the advice so far gentlemen...
Aaron
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Old 05-31-2004, 10:54 AM   #24
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you could try spacing the pivot out a little. that would change the angle of the clutch fork freeing up some slack on the cable. which would hold you over till the T5 swap is ready to go in.
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Old 05-31-2004, 05:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reeferman
t-5 in and love it for under 1000.00
inculding World Class T-5 (lucky junk yard find)
World Class T5s come standard in all Mustangs(and some other T5 equipped vehicles) after 1985. So it won't be hard finding them.

The T5Z is a Ford Motorsports aftermarket transmission.

http://www.5speeds.com/t5/index.html
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