home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-30-2004, 11:38 AM   #1
RedDragon
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
Default Update on B23 Stroker Engine

I thought I'd post an update on my 2674cc B23 stroker project.

Heads by Paul in Denver has done a great job getting the block bored and decked and it's all ready to go. They sonic-checked the block and then bored it 30/1000's over after making sure the cylinders would handle that much. The old block was too worn to go to 20/1000's. Once all the parts come together, they will lighten my flywheel, too, shaving it down to 18 pounds.

Mile High Crankshaft took 8 weeks to do my crank. They have a reputation as being the best in town but I would definitely never go there again. As for their work, they did a nice job on setting up the 90mm stroke and welding up the sides of the journals so the engine is no longer piston-guided -- now it's crank-guided. It just should not have taken them this long after they told me they'd do the job within two weeks when I first brought the crank in.

The rods are Eagle aftermarket ones: 350 Chevy chro-mo pieces that are 6.25" long. This gives me a decent rod ratio but not much height left in the tops of the pistons. In retrospect, after the crank and pistons (see below) took so long, maybe I should have gone with custom rods rather than trying to find some off-the shelf ones. We'll see how this works out in the end. The rods are rated at 500 hp in a V8. I'm not sure if that means you cut the number in half for an I4 or not? pbonsalb feels this is the case, but what's the concensus? Will I have weak rods that can only handle 250 hp or is each rod in the set capable of 500 hp? Really, we'll only know once I throw boost at the engine, but I was curious what everyone else thought, especially people who've done this modification.

Now, the piston story: I took qwkswede's advice and went with Diamond Racing pistons in Michigan. So far, I have faxed in my order sheet to them three times and I just now heard back from their sales guy about building the pistons. It has taken 4 weeks just to get them to talk to me and I actually got put on terminal hold this morning when I tried to call them. I'm thinking of going with Ross pistons instead. Does anyone have any experience with either of these manufacturers? Would I be better off switching or should I stay with Diamond, assuming I can talk to them? Ross tells me 2-1/2 weeks to make a set and Diamond tells me 4 weeks.

So, anyway, once this is all done, I'll have a 15G, a ported 531 head, 2674cc displacement with 90mm stroke, 3" mandrel-bent exhaust, a mystery cam that came with the head (supposed to be pretty aggressive), cone intake, and adjustable cam gear. I'm pretty sure I'll throw in the browntops I have and get a Walbro fuel pump to handle the fuel requirements if I turn up the wick to 20 pounds. I'm hoping for 300 ponies. Whatchoo think?
__________________
Liquidating my Volvo stuff. Enjoy the Red Dragon, Ken.
RedDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 11:51 AM   #2
MikeSr.
Finish it, Flounder
 
MikeSr.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Acworth, Ga. USA
Default

Sweeeeet! Let us know your final specs.
__________________
I coulda had a V8!
MikeSr. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 12:09 PM   #3
RedDragon
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
Default Will do

That I will, MJ.

By the way, I installed that aluminum hood you sold me. I painted it in black primer and waxed the primer. It has that old Rat Rod '32 Deuce Coupe patina look to it now.

I also put two sets of functional louvers above where the turbo is and deleted the passenger's side high beam to make an air intake for the engine compartment and cone filter.

I've only driven the car once since then, but when I pulled over and kept my electric puller fan running, serious hot air was escaping from the louvers.

So, the hood's working out great. The only thing is, you have to jump back when you undo the latch because the hinges want to fling that light hood up right quick.
RedDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 12:47 PM   #4
dl242gt
Can play the blues
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default Great motor project!

This is looking up to be a really strong motor. How about JE pistons, or Arias? Maybe they can make you something. You could also check with Mahle maybe they have something that would work?

All the best,
__________________
Dave,
1982 242 turbo. 340k miles. Good stuff and lots of rust.
1993 245 Classic, 417k miles, enem V15. IPD bars and chassis braces. Simons sport exhaust from Scandix. sbabbs ezk chip. Been a good road warrior. Genuine Volvo rebuilt leaky M47.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 01:13 PM   #5
linuxman51
BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN!
 
linuxman51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: mont, AL
Default

sounds cool,some of you guys have the worst luck in terms of order-delivery time. Not to go against what qwkswede said, I've heard great things about arias pistons (venolia (sp) as well), but i've never heard of diamond racing.

Should have a beast in your hands when you're done, probably be time for a much larger turbo then. Look forward to seeing it completed
__________________
"They bum rushed them in their own crib, they drank all their beer, they partied with their ladies and they left with the trophy"

Now with in-house Dyno tuning!

Megasquirt Tuning!
Plug and play LH 2.4 Megasquirt, now with stealth mode!
linuxman51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 01:20 PM   #6
CNGBrick
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Caraquet NB Canada
Default

A horsepower comparison of rods only matters in engines of very similar construction (cams, pistons, rpm, fuelling and ignition maps). The main factors that affect rods are the rod to stroke ratio, piston assembly mass, combustion pressure profile and engine speed.

It is worth noting that the most stressful event that a rod is normally subjected to is the piston direction reversal at tdc of the exhaust/intake stroke. A rod that fails in compression likely failed due to an unusual combustion event such as knocking, a foreign object in the combustion chamber or an assembly error/faulty material.

In short, if you don't know what assumptions were made to claim the rod is good for X hp, you can't really tell if it will work in a different application.

I guess that doesn't help you much at this point but it's also a pretty complicated subject.

RT
CNGBrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 01:24 PM   #7
MikeSr.
Finish it, Flounder
 
MikeSr.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Acworth, Ga. USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDragon
That I will, MJ.

By the way, I installed that aluminum hood you sold me. I painted it in black primer and waxed the primer. It has that old Rat Rod '32 Deuce Coupe patina look to it now.

I also put two sets of functional louvers above where the turbo is and deleted the passenger's side high beam to make an air intake for the engine compartment and cone filter.

I've only driven the car once since then, but when I pulled over and kept my electric puller fan running, serious hot air was escaping from the louvers.

So, the hood's working out great. The only thing is, you have to jump back when you undo the latch because the hinges want to fling that light hood up right quick.
Ha! I told you- I took the hood bolts off the hinges and the paint held the hood up! That thing is seriously light.
MikeSr. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 01:30 PM   #8
MikeSr.
Finish it, Flounder
 
MikeSr.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Acworth, Ga. USA
Default

I've heard great things about arias pistons (venolia (sp) as well),

I e-mailed Ronnie Hilmersson about his motor. He uses Venolia pistons with a marine 2.5 crank . An outfit called Sten Parner Motor built his bottom end. He didn't know the specs on the pistons, but Venolia should have some info on these.
MikeSr. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 01:54 PM   #9
Chigga 744SE
Taiwan Panda Racing Unit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: On. Canada
Default

don't you think a 15G is way too small of what this engine's potential?
Chigga 744SE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 02:06 PM   #10
pbonsalb
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Default

I used Arias for my 2.3L 8V pistons. I used them only because the machine shop had dealt with them a lot and thought they might be faster. In the end it did not matter because Crower took months to do the rods. I think you cannot really go wrong with any of the rod or piston makers. The only advice the machine shop gave me was to get the rings from the piston maker because they know what works and they would be more likely to help if there is a problem if you use what they recommend.

Call around, see what sort of lead times the various piston makers offer. We sent the piston and the rod makers stock ones as examples, but your parts may be so custom that this is not necessary.

Philip Bradley
pbonsalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 03:41 PM   #11
RedDragon
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
Default Ross

I decided to go with Ross pistons.

The decision was precipitated by three factors.

First, I called Diamond again and the first time, their phone didn't answer. The second time, I got lost in limbo.

Second, I called Ross to see what their time would be. They told me I'd have my pistons by mid July.

Third, the person I talked to at Ross knew what she was doing, asked the right questions, and was able to take my order over the phone right then.

I never even got a price from Diamond, but Ross is charging me $635 for four custom pistons, their proprietary rings and wrist pins to fit my con rods.

So, sometime in July, I should have the beastie running.

Yeah, I do think the 15G may end up being too small, but I bought it way before I decided to stroke the engine. We'll see how long I can live with the 15G in the new mill before I forget how painful it was to get the 15G to work and decide sure, I can swap the turbo.
RedDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 05:36 PM   #12
MattP
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Default

My 16V pistons from Diamond to my specs with Total Seal conventional rings was $501, but I had to wait about 6-7 weeks. I can't remember, but I jerked the guys chain enough with questions that I felt I was getting as good as I gave. Nice looking pistons. All were within 1 gram of the other. Can't remember the total weight. They did not come with pins, but they were fitted. Good luck.

Matt
MattP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2004, 09:47 PM   #13
qwkswede
faster than you think
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Default

RedDragon,
Sorry to hear Diamond gave you the run around. I had good service from them. I even got calls from them to tell me the status. I always was able to reach them when I called. But unsolicited calls coming my way just to check on some info was a first time occurence from an automotive company for me.

I could have told you that Mile hi cranks would be slow. I was not in any hurry at all, so I didn't mind waiting. But they were pretty slow on mine too. The line up of cranks in front of mine, and 2 running grinders every time I stopped in showed me that they were at least working. There just aren't really any other crank grinders in the area. Especially ones that would want to weld journals. I have heard that from more than one other shop.

I have used Ross in the past too. NO problems ever with them. They were just much more expensive, and didn't really have the pattern for a 16v Volvo head when I wanted it. Though they were willing to make one. I have bought two sets of custom pistons from Ross over the years, and no problems with either one. Exactly what I wanted both times.

About those Eagle rods. There are several similar looking H-beam rods out there. I suspect they are all made in China and re-labeled here. Anyway. I know of one mustang that is running 8.80s in the 1/4 mile using the cheapest chinese H-beam rods available. $250 for a set of 8. I think they are the same as the eagles from what I could tell. ARP bolts, forged H-beam, etc. And there are 100s of passes on that motor. NO problems. Any way you do the math, those things are freaking strong as hell. I don't think you will have any problems with those rods with a nice lightweight custom piston on top of them.

sounds like you got a nice combo coming together. When do you hope to have it assembled by?

-ken
__________________
-Ken
1967 Volvo 122S
1992 Volvo 244 driver
qwkswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2004, 12:54 AM   #14
dbarton
Bored Member
 
dbarton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North of Dallas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDragon
[snip]The rods are Eagle aftermarket ones: 350 Chevy chro-mo pieces that are 6.25" long. This gives me a decent rod ratio but not much height left in the tops of the pistons.

So, anyway, once this is all done, I'll have a 15G, a ported 531 head, 2674cc displacement with 90mm stroke,
Having been through this 4 years ago, I would like to share a few things. The rods you've selected are longer by .110" than the custom ones I had done. Your stroke will be 1 mm longer than mine. You're not kidding when you mention you might not have much height left in the pistons. I had very little also.

I do have very important questions...

What is the volume of your combustion chambers?

Are you planning to put the tops of the pistons at zero deck or higher at TDC?

How large (cc) of a dish or bowl will be cut into your pistons?

These become much more important questions for a stroker than a normal motor, since the increased stroke adds gobs of static compression, which must then be engineered out with larger combustion chambers, larger piston bowls, or a combination of both. Not getting it right can leave you with a high compression motor that will not handle as much boost as you want without a lot of boost retard or race gas... a problem I'm dealing with in my motor.
Dave B.
__________________

'84 242ti, owned since 2003. Always garaged since brand new. Old-school round headlights because they look great. B21FT, EMS: SDS EFI and IGN, TD04HL-15G, T5Z trans, Cooling Mist water/ethanol injection.
April 2018: Volvo seeks Divorce from the Volvo Enthusiast Community: www.prancingmoose.com/#novolvo
dbarton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2004, 12:58 AM   #15
Volvofly
Board Member
 
Volvofly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lafayette, Colorado
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDragon
That I will, MJ.

By the way, I installed that aluminum hood you sold me. I painted it in black primer and waxed the primer. It has that old Rat Rod '32 Deuce Coupe patina look to it now.

I also put two sets of functional louvers above where the turbo is and deleted the passenger's side high beam to make an air intake for the engine compartment and cone filter.
I've been thinking of adding the louvers above the turbo as well. Who did the louvers for you? Are you happy with how they turned out?

Good to hear the monster motor is coming along nicely.
Volvofly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2004, 10:16 PM   #16
RedDragon
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
Default Responses

Okay, first, the hood response: I bought a louver from Summit Racing. I think it was 5" x 13" and had like 9 slots in it. Like I say, that's what I bought. What I actually got from Summit was a pair (2) plastic louver sets that were non-functional. I used my air-powered cut-off wheel to make the pair of them functional. They came with double-sided tape to stick 'em to the hood. I also used rivets purely for cosmetic reasons. It definitely looks cooler with the rivets.

Then, the engine specs: I'll have 1.2" or so of compression height left. If I'm using the right term, that is. More explicitly, there will be 1.2" or so from the center of the wrist pin to the top of the deck. That should be plenty with forged pistons, I hope, I hope.

The rods are I-beams, not H-beams. I hope they're strong enough. They cost $170 for a set of four, for whatever that's worth.

My combustion chambers are 58.1 cc. It's a 531 head that I had the head shop cc for me to be sure.

Piston to deck clearance is copied straight off your page, Dave: 0.4mm or 0.016".

The piston dish is 16 cc to give a final compression ratio of 8.5:1.

Dave, thanks so much for all the very specific information on your page. I used it and then double-checked it on my engine and it all checked out for me, too. I did have my deck shaved just to make sure it was square and straight, but they didn't take much off. I think I ended up with 9.116" all told. I'm hoping that your figure of 1.25mm compressed height for the Cutting Edge head gasket is spot on, because I relied on that figure for my calculations.

Right now, I'm just waiting another week or so for those pistons.

I'll keep you posted.
RedDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 12:01 AM   #17
stealthfti
Guest
 
Default Are all the numbers right?

I added up the numbers you have listed, and they do not add up.

you listed a crank modified to a 90mm stroke................3.543in
you list rods with C to C of.........................................6.25in
you list pistons with comp height
[wrist pin CL to crown] of...........................................1.2in
you list the block with Deck Height
[crank CL to deck} of................................................ 9.116in

take half the stroke............................................ ......1.7715in
add the rod CtoC length...........................................+ 6.25in
add the piston comp height.......................................+1.2i n

total is................................................ ................ 9.2215in

if my math is correct, and if the numbers you listed as the dimensions are correct, then the pistons are going to stick out above the block a total of ......0.1055in

I went over the numbers several times; and redid the calculations at least three times. The total adds up to the same.

I hope that I am missing something here. The one dimension you list that I am not quite sure of is the compression height of the pistons. You give that dimension as 1.2in. Is that the dimension; or is it an estimated dimension? Would you please verify the correctness of all the dimensions; and especially of the piston comp height? And let me know which one or ones I have wrong.

Thanks.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 09:15 AM   #18
RedDragon
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
Default 1.2"

The 1.2" from wrist pin CL to top of deck was an approximation. I'll get back to you when I can get the sheet with all the accurate numbers.
RedDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 09:27 AM   #19
RedDragon
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
Default The right numbers

Sorry to mislead you. I made a mistake on the lenghth of the rods when I posted their dimensions here. Fortunately, I gave Ross Pistons the right numbers.

The con rods are 6.125" not 6.25". That should change the numbers significantly.

So, the #'s are:

96.76mm bore

90 mm stroke

6.125" rod length c to c

9.116" deck height, crank c/l to top of deck

1.203" actual compression height (center of wrist pin to top of deck)

58.1 cc combustion chamber volume in the heads

16 cc of piston dish

0.4mm between top of piston and top of deck

1.25mm compressed head gasket height
RedDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 02:55 PM   #20
Captain Bondo
Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
 
Captain Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Default

Props for going to such lengths on this project! Can't say I have the same initiative when it comes to building a bottom end. ;)

So works out to squish of 0.057"? That ain't bad- it's on the high side but it's easier to remove material than add it. ;)
You thinking of knocking another 15-18'ish thou off the deck?
__________________


-Kenny
(I crushed a 240 with some stuff done to it. Honest.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Turbobricks isn't a car forum any more. Its a forum for lame kids.
Captain Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 04:14 PM   #21
Unregistered
Guest
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Death
Props for going to such lengths on this project! Can't say I have the same initiative when it comes to building a bottom end. ;)

So works out to squish of 0.057"? That ain't bad- it's on the high side but it's easier to remove material than add it. ;)
You thinking of knocking another 15-18'ish thou off the deck?
I think the head gasket thickness is an estimate as few people actually know the exact compressed thickness is. I was more recently told that the CE gasket was closer to 1.0 mm thick compressed. That reduces your squish to a prettier number, although I think you could go up to Zero deck is you wanted. Your piston bowls are 50% larger than mine, which help bring compression down. My estimate is that you will have about 8.8 to 1 static compression so far. Should work out fine.
Dave B
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 05:12 PM   #22
Captain Bondo
Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
 
Captain Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Default

That's news to me at least as far as the stock gasket goes. If the manufacturer says 1.2mm I will believe them. Do you have any reason to doubt elring's specs? Always just assumed elring would be right since they made it...
Captain Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2004, 11:54 PM   #23
Unregistered
Guest
 
Default

CE (Goertze), not Elring, Cap't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2004, 12:24 AM   #24
dbarton
Bored Member
 
dbarton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North of Dallas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Death
That's news to me at least as far as the stock gasket goes. If the manufacturer says 1.2mm I will believe them. Do you have any reason to doubt elring's specs? Always just assumed elring would be right since they made it...

Yes, that was the spec for a Cutting Edge Gasket. But I'll tell you about when I contact Elring and made inquiries 4 years ago, they could not comment on a "compressed" thickness. They could tell me the uncompressed thickness... like that does much good. The 1.25 mm compressed thickness estimate I finally did find did NOT come from Elring, but I believe it was from Mike Aaro in Sweden.
Dave B.
dbarton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2004, 03:23 AM   #25
Captain Bondo
Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
 
Captain Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Default

Very strange. If you search google you should pull up lots of links stating the elring as 0.050" uncompressed and 0.047" (1.19mm) compressed...
I also know of several shops that have verified this via a torque plate. No idea on the CE... I never knew that's what the original poster was using. Being that an o-ring job is 30 bucks and an elring gasket is about the same I've never tried one. Also if the CE is made by Goetze (the South African gasket maker with the yellow and black packaging) I wouldn't touch it- the shop i work at has seen several of their stock ones come in from other shops leaking.

So anyways if y'all didn't know that 1.19mm thing for sure before now- now you do. I would have shared this previously but I guess I thought it was an established fact.
Captain Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:40 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.