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Old 07-26-2004, 10:36 PM   #1
TheBMEPDr
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Question Porsche Brembo "monoblock" conversion

Hello Folks,
I'm well aware of the fact that I'm a "newbie" in your wonderful forum and perhaps my eyes are deceptive in attempting to retrieve worthwhile information in reference to "Big Binders" (brakes) utilizing the "search function".

This is quite odd...I'd think that vehicles with (relatively) prodigious performance capabilities, especially considering substantial "mass in motion" would have a myriad of sources to choose from in this vital area. Can anyone steer me in the proper direction? The reason for my querry is simple...At DME...(Deutschmarque Engineering) we believe that a symbiotic relationship between all vehicular dynamics MUST exist...Velocity/acceleration, directional change behavior, as well as braking capabilities should all coincide..One, without the others, is just not a dynamically balanced platform, or, "ergodynamically correct". At DME we've engineered various braking systems based on proven Porsche "monoblock" caliper/rotor units for many other makes...Nothing new, many others have...Question is....why no Volvos?

Thanks for any responses in advance..
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Old 07-26-2004, 10:40 PM   #2
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Porsche uses Porsche Caliper not Brembo
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Old 07-26-2004, 10:52 PM   #3
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im getting the impression that joe runs a company that creates conversion kits for various cars. from what i gather he has a preety damned good idea of what hes talking about.

when it comes down to it most of us are poor. that doesnt mean that it isnt a consideration on our parts.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=21050
this is about as big as most of us ever get. its a fairly new modification to be done. if drop in kits were made for the RWD cars that offered better braking systems for the RWD bricks, im sure there would be some people interested, and even some who would buy them. but we are mostly frugal, and i promise your not going to get alot of customers from this crowd, but if you kept a few units around, you would get some customers.

personally i would love to convert my wagon to larger discs, and calipers, but right now i dont have the money. eventually of course i will, and it will happen. but no one at the moment has engineered a means by which to adapt anything near 13in or alike. my biggest concern is the increase in unsprung mass, and the increase of rotational mass. even with 2 peice rotors, you cant match the weight of a 10in disc, yet when you increase your rim size from 15in to 18in you are most certainly increasing the rotational mass, and the smaller brakes are probably not going to do a very good job of keeping up.

thats all i have to add at the moment.
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Old 07-26-2004, 10:55 PM   #4
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At VOLVO THEY THINK BEFORE THEY BUILD..
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Old 07-26-2004, 10:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horse
Porsche uses Porsche Caliper not Brembo
nope. porsche, volvo, and even ferrari have contracts with brembo.

porsche brakes are brembos.

nick

p.s. The 13in brakes off the volvo S60R can be adapted to fit older volvos for less than half the price of new brembos.... install them front and rear... and you'll stop on a dime ;)

Last edited by TRBO242; 07-26-2004 at 10:59 PM.. Reason: forgot something...
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Porsche uses Porsche Caliper not Brembo
Au Contraire
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:24 PM   #7
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when it comes down to it most of us are poor. that doesnt mean that it isnt a consideration on our parts.
nohbudi, thank you very much for the link, much appreciated...
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:26 PM   #8
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At VOLVO THEY THINK BEFORE THEY BUILD..
I just don't know how to respond to this one, so I wont.
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18yr240t
At VOLVO THEY THINK BEFORE THEY BUILD..
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I just don't know how to respond to this one, so I wont.
well if you wont, i will.

that statement is preety lame. in the context your suggesting that volvo has the one up on everyone else in the market place. yet in the spirit of advancment im going to ask you to sit back, take your brickboard cap off and listen to what joe has to say.

it may be true, that the braking systems on volvos have been adequate for the task at hand (stoping a stock volvo) and theyve been preety good about it for several decades. keep in mind of course, that the brakes are engineered to stop a car that is never driven much above 90mph. altho they are capable of stoping the car from higher speeds, how many times can they do this? porsche on the other hand, while not nessicarily being the tractor a volvo is, they are designed to stop from speeds in the excess of 150mph repeatedly. in the volvo tuner community, speeds in excess of 150mph are becoming common place, and our braking systems are not capable of keeping up with it. i know i would kill for a better set of discs and calipers. not to say i have bigger calipers and discs, but because VOLVO didnt think about my specific desires when they designed my car.

this is where a person like Joe comes in, and takes care of that little issue. albeit an expensive issue. its a very important issue. my 0-60 time may have droped 4 seconds from when i bought my car, but my 60-0 is the same. this in my oppinion is not acceptable, and braking should be improved upon.
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:36 PM   #10
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Sorry...wasn't logged on...
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Old 07-27-2004, 12:25 AM   #11
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330X28mm brembo discs, Brembo 4pots no more than 1k installed (even on the high side).

That's a pretty sweet deal. That being said, Im ALL for new comers and innovation in brick tuning. Personally, I was looking into 6pots just because I can

Nick, the car stops unbelieveably hard. Theres NO reason to upgrade the rears.
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Old 07-27-2004, 12:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBMEPDr
Hello Folks,
I'm well aware of the fact that I'm a "newbie" in your wonderful forum and perhaps my eyes are deceptive in attempting to retrieve worthwhile information in reference to "Big Binders" (brakes) utilizing the "search function".

This is quite odd...I'd think that vehicles with (relatively) prodigious performance capabilities, especially considering substantial "mass in motion" would have a myriad of sources to choose from in this vital area. Can anyone steer me in the proper direction? The reason for my querry is simple...At DME...(Deutschmarque Engineering) we believe that a symbiotic relationship between all vehicular dynamics MUST exist...Velocity/acceleration, directional change behavior, as well as braking capabilities should all coincide..One, without the others, is just not a dynamically balanced platform, or, "ergodynamically correct". At DME we've engineered various braking systems based on proven Porsche "monoblock" caliper/rotor units for many other makes...Nothing new, many others have...Question is....why no Volvos?

Thanks for any responses in advance..
Im sorry but im a little confused on what your saying? are you asking if we want big brakes? im kinda confused on what your saying. please stuplfy it for me.
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:15 AM   #13
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Eurosport tuning makes a brembo kit for fwd:
http://www.eurosporttuning.com/Merch..._Code=estbrkit

they also list an ap racing kit. Between these kits, the s60r upgrade, and the fact that a 240 with drilled/slotted brembo's and good pads stops very well as-is, you have some tough competition. But if you can do it at a marketable price (by marketable I mean not far beyond the 1k'ish doug qouted on the R stuff) I'm sure people would be interested, especially for the 700/900 since they got cheesier front brakes.
That I've always liked is the ford willwood conversion Dick did (www.ovlov.net). Seems like a cool option too.
Best of luck!

Thanks for ignoring the children, by the way.
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Old 07-27-2004, 02:14 AM   #14
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Old 07-27-2004, 03:22 AM   #15
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kirby you thief, J/K

other pics of that setup can be found at my site here http://www.pbase.com/ravennexus/dutch240
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Old 07-27-2004, 03:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoop Dougy Doug
Nick, the car stops unbelieveably hard. Theres NO reason to upgrade the rears.
Maybe you should do some testing on a track before declaring that there is no reason to upgrade the rear brakes. What if the rear brakes are doing too much work for their size, overheat, and boil the fluid in the calipers?

Nice Porsche brakes...and that even looks like it could be a 5x130 pattern on those rotors.
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Old 07-27-2004, 04:02 AM   #17
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what car are those on?
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Old 07-27-2004, 04:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vurbo
what car are those on?
i know it's late so i'll post it again

http://www.pbase.com/ravennexus/dutch240

Quote:
Originally Posted by towerymt
Nice Porsche brakes...and that even looks like it could be a 5x130 pattern on those rotors.
yeah they are if you goto my site you see he uses a spacer to fill in the area missed when he cut the 5x108mm pattern into the disc mountings, the gallery even carries onto his engine and porsche rear brakes.

shame i haven't heard from him in a while. lost his contact details too.

Last edited by MikeHardy; 07-27-2004 at 04:39 AM..
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Old 07-27-2004, 04:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towerymt
Maybe you should do some testing on a track before declaring that there is no reason to upgrade the rear brakes. What if the rear brakes are doing too much work for their size, overheat, and boil the fluid in the calipers?

Nice Porsche brakes...and that even looks like it could be a 5x130 pattern on those rotors.
I will agree with doug there is little incentive to change the rear brakes. Having spent some time at Thunderhill a few months ago with my new R brakes, I have no issues with boiling fluid (using ATE Super Blue and EBC Greens). The only flaw I experienced then was a front brake bias if I was too agressive on the brakes, which has now been ironed out after eliminating the rear reduction valves. My brakes now stop unbelievably hard as well... I tried them out with my brother in the car the other day... gave him some warning and waiting until I was right on a stop sign at 60 mph... then jammed the brakes hard in as close to a panic stop as you can get without locking things up. The car ground to a halt immediately... very similar to my brother's M5 (with ABS). The only thing that messed up was when my front tires hit the painted limit line and screeched the last 2 feet. I'm telling you... the difference between these brakes and my old brakes (using Mintex pads) is like night and day.
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Old 07-27-2004, 06:33 AM   #20
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Default Rear brakes

As you improve your Volvo brakes you load up the fronts more and more, so the rears have less and less work to do due to weight transfer. The Volvo 2L 850 and S40 Supertourers in Australia ran huge fronts with 19" wheels, but near stock rear brakes looking tiny inside those big wheels. The Ovlov.net 740T has Mustang 330mm x 28mm front rotors plus 6-piston AP calipers and huge Ferrodo 3000 pads, but the stock rear ATE 2-piston calipers and tiny DB2 pads with "Comp 2" linings work just fine.
By the way, I've just found and bought a 240T GpA prepared and run in Oz in '87 by a privateer. After a restoration job it will be out racing next year in Australian Historic GpC/GpA racing. Watch my space!
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Old 07-27-2004, 07:54 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBMEPDr
Hello Folks,
I'm well aware of the fact that I'm a "newbie" in your wonderful forum and perhaps my eyes are deceptive in attempting to retrieve worthwhile information in reference to "Big Binders" (brakes) utilizing the "search function".

This is quite odd...I'd think that vehicles with (relatively) prodigious performance capabilities, especially considering substantial "mass in motion" would have a myriad of sources to choose from in this vital area. Can anyone steer me in the proper direction? The reason for my querry is simple...At DME...(Deutschmarque Engineering) we believe that a symbiotic relationship between all vehicular dynamics MUST exist...Velocity/acceleration, directional change behavior, as well as braking capabilities should all coincide..One, without the others, is just not a dynamically balanced platform, or, "ergodynamically correct". At DME we've engineered various braking systems based on proven Porsche "monoblock" caliper/rotor units for many other makes...Nothing new, many others have...Question is....why no Volvos?

Thanks for any responses in advance..
All of the aftermarket companies trampled over themselves in a mad rush to make high performance parts for the very, very few owners of 10 to 20 year old Volvo family cars who wanted better brakes. Many of the current owners of these cars are high school and college kids whose parents gave them the cars, and have limited budgets. If someone put together a Porsche monoblock brake kit for $250, there might be a surprising amount of sales. If the price is $1,250 or more, expect few sales.

A few of the serious racers, show car people, and sophisticated project people have done one off brake conversions. I'll probably get around to this project next year. I don't race and better brakes have not been a high priority for me. If there is a reasonably priced kit around, I would certainly consider it. Otherwise, I'll probably consult with Wilwood and put one together myself. We have a BMW 635 with Wilwood front and rear brakes and it stops well, and I know of at least two people with Wilwoods on Volvos who race. I would be interested in dropping some unsprung weight through aluminum rotor hats and calipers.

Philip Bradley
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Old 07-27-2004, 10:46 AM   #22
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keep in mind, the rear brakes on a 240 are BIGGER OD (though not in surface area) than the fronts. Your best bet would be to maybe adapt the front OEM 4pistons to the rear.
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Old 07-27-2004, 11:23 AM   #23
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Default This is a good thread

This is great to have interest by Joe! I hope something can come of this because with all these guys making 300hp Volvos. There is a need for better brakes. I'd also be interested in improving my brakes to another level. To have more choices would only help all of us enthusiasts. If there was an adapter to mount the stock front calipers to a larger rotor with an aluminum hat to save weight would be a big help. I don't know if that can be done but it's a thought I had for affordable better brakes.

There is hp in the turns and one of the ways to get it is to be able to slow down faster.

Best regards,
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:37 PM   #24
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Default control arms?

Just a reminder, if you are upgrading the front braking power on your 240, you MUST reinforce the front control arms, or they WILL bend, and jeopardize your handling performance. Ask John Lane about bent control arms! He bent the arms on his rally car, while braking in GRAVEL!!! I am surprised that Mr. Barton has not had problems with this yet!

Just something to consider, that when you put more force on the brakes, this transfers to the control arms, the bushings, the bearings, and so on. Got poly bushings yet? It's time. Also, weld up those control arms!

Eric
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Old 07-27-2004, 05:05 PM   #25
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I'd like to thank all of you for your responses and efforts in posting photos. I realise the Volvo aftermarket performance arena isn't saturated with the veritable cornucopia of choices pertaining to upgrading performance, at least, not to the same degree as many other marques. I'll research the market a bit more diligently to determine the feasibility of our possible involvement in the future. Engineering firms/manufacturers have an invaluable resource in reference to the ability of "surveying" the market place via the internet and gaining valuable input and feedback from wonderful people like you....

Joe

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