home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2012, 02:24 PM   #1
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
klr142's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: OR
Default 140 brake upgrade, what's your experience?

On the General Leif Chumpcar we are looking to improve brake life... Currently it has the stock 140 solid discs and Girling calipers up front and uses the same pads as 240s.

240 Girling front calipers and vented rotors:
Things bolt up after you "machine" down the mating surface on the calipers to re-center them, BUT, the calipers sit "out" too far, as if they need slightly larger rotors(~1/8-1/4" larger diameter overall). So, you're missing out on some pad surface if you just make 240 stuff work on 140 spindles.


240 Girling calipers and '72-75 164 vented rotors:
Calipers require same work as above, but the 164 rotors are both larger in diameter(~1/4"? didn't measure) and thicker(larger vented area) so they BARELY squeeze into the 240 calipers. The opening for the rotor in the 240 caliper isn't quite large enough and comes into contact with the 164 rotor both on the sides of the rotor(pad biting surface) and the outer diameter.

164 ATE calipers and 164 vented rotors: This is a bolt on affair, from first look. The thing that makes us hesitate, is the reduced availability of components and MAINLY, the ATE calipers use a smaller pad. I haven't measured the piston diameters to see if they differ, but the pad itself is "shorter" and the effective pad surface area is reduced by ~10%....

We are going to have custom pads made because there isn't anything "performance" available for the ATE calipers but I wanted to see what people have done first for track use.
klr142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #2
NChoy
18 bricks and counting
 
NChoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Porsche Big Reds. 'nuff said.

Seriously, I've always been partial to the 164 vented brake conversion, even with the lesser pad surface area. Did this on the Red Baron and on the '72 142 Marc and I sold to Terran... both worked out very nicely.

Of course, both cars have not seen the track time the General is seeing...
__________________

Nick Choy
Founder, Oregon Volvo Tuners
——————————————————————————
'04 S60R, '98 V70R AWD, '93 244DL, '89 245DL, '71 142e, '67 122s


Feedback Thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=20272
NChoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 02:33 PM   #3
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
klr142's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: OR
Default

Thanks Nick. Yeah, I'm of the opinion that Volvo found it an upgrade, so it should still be an upgrade for us, regardless of pad area. I am also curious if there's a difference in piston area, it's something we'll have to measure next time I'm over there.
klr142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #4
towerymt
the real Towery
 
towerymt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: VA, USA
Default

240 calipers, 240 rotors...are the pads hanging off the outside edge of the rotor? How much area are you losing? If it's determined not to be that big of an issue, that's the direction I would go just because parts are so cheap & plentiful. machine up a spare set of calipers to have on hand, the rest is cheap/easy to buy or borrow. That 140 weighs less and has less power than our car, so I wouldn't think braking would be an issue even if you did lose a little bit of pad area.
__________________
1987 244 | Project Thread | The 87 | Now with 74 mods and counting
1992 244 | The 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poik View Post
244s are drop dead ugly and suck.
towerymt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 04:04 PM   #5
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BFE Desert east of Cali
Default

I'm actually running 240 calipers and 164 rotors without any issue. Had to clearance the calipers for width, don't remember having to clearance for diameter at all. Been running that set for a few years, haven't had a single issue with it at all, probably won't being everything is cryo'd as well, plus the car never gets driven. ;)
__________________
RIP
Doug Williams "Mr. Doug" 4/15/2009
Pete Fluitman "fivehundred" 7/14/2013
Mick Starkey "TrickMick" 1/10/14
Mark Baldwin "blue850t5" 7/19/18
Nick Fengler "fengler" 8/6/18
Thomas Fritz "stealthfti" 10/11/18
Bob Davi "bob davi" 10/2021

74 144 B20
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=224983

90 745Ti
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=334698

If you need Superpro bushings PM me for price and availability!
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 04:26 PM   #6
John2x240
Board Member
 
John2x240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sarsfield,ON
Default

If I may add something, the brake system should be tailored to the car: weight, tires, intended use, etc., especially given that it's not the brakes that stop a car but the tires. As towery says, your car is not that heavy, and it's also not that fast, so you won't need a super-dooper full race system such as those on a Ferrari and such like. In fact, such as system could be dangerous unless you have really sticky tires as you would be locking up at a mere tap on the brake pedal, so I agree with towery on the 240 system. All you would need after that is to do some pad testing to see which are the best for your purposes.

My FBRX7 weighs about 2150 lbs all up with fluids and driver, I run (or have been running) Toyo RA1s, I have the stock Mazda front and rear calipers and rotors, and run Hawk blues at the front and blacks at the rear, and have never had problems stopping the car even going down the chute into turn 5a at Mosport ... except for the time when the rear flex line broke and I wound up into the tire wall.

When selecting your brake system, bigger and fancier is most often not the best.
__________________
'88 Volvo 240 auto (now a parts car), '89 Volvo 240 5 spd. (now a daily driver), '92 245 5 spd. (new my car), '80 Holiday Rambler/Ford E350 (tow vehicle and track crash pad), '95 GMC K2500 (local hauler/back-up tow vehicle), '83 Mazda RX7 (race car when I have the funds), '99 Miska 20' car hauler.

The man's prayer: "I'm a man, but I can change, ... if I have to, ... I guess."
John2x240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 05:16 PM   #7
towerymt
the real Towery
 
towerymt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: VA, USA
Default

Run the biggest you can, and use less aggressive or larger pad. I wouldn't give up pad size or pad choice.

Hawk blue are great, but I wouldn't race them using street tires like we do. That wasn't really mentioned, but we're having to run street tires.

For as good as the Volvo brand pads and rotors work, hard to pick anything else. Our price on front pads is 17.50 and rears are 22. rotors are around 25-35ea and last several races.

I bought a set of rear akebono ceramic pads, hoping they'll last longer. we've had rapid rear pad consumption at 2 out of the last 3 races. usually they'll last 10hr, but last race they only lasted 8hr but saturday was 10hr, so we had to swap during the race just to finish the day.
towerymt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 10:52 PM   #8
John2x240
Board Member
 
John2x240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sarsfield,ON
Default

Hmm, street tires; I've never run on them. Have you ever had the brakes overpower them under hard braking? OTOH you're experienced so you've probably learned a lot about pedal modulation under braking. Anyway, I have no racing experience with 240s, so I'll shut up now and just learn about racing bricks.
John2x240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 01:19 AM   #9
towerymt
the real Towery
 
towerymt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: VA, USA
Default

I ran some hawk blues on my autocross car for a track day. Put them on a few days before and "tested" them on the street. Pretty easy to lock up. I wasn't very aggressive on the brakes on the track day so I didn't make it an issue.

On the 24hr lemons car we run dunlop star spec street tires, 200 treadwear. They're cheap and last a long time, so it's good for the series. Get well over 30 hours of road racing out of a set. The volvo brand pads & rotors hold up to the heat and abuse and they're not too grabby so they work well. Stand on the pedal and they are not prone to lockup. need more braking? just press harder. I've had some minor lockup or oversteer from weight transfer, but rarely does the front lock up.
towerymt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 12:36 PM   #10
itb-volvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: P-town Or
Default

A couple of things. We are no longer running a B20 we have a B230 in there now. In the last race I ran a 1:38.something (at PIR), thats the best lap I have ever done in my IT so the cars no slouch. I think some of the things we are looking for in the brakes is longevity and the ability to break deeper than other cars out on the track. We ran off the shelf Volvo pars for the 12 hour race on Saturday with about a 25%/75% mix of rain/dry. While the Volvo pads performed well they did not last for the 12 hours. If not for a bunch of yellow flags and a 30-40 red flag stop I'm not sure we would have kept the 2nd place spot. So if we can find a setup that can last for 12 hours (24? I doubt it) and stand up to some hard deep braking for that 12 hours that would be nice.

Marc

Last edited by itb-volvo; 01-21-2012 at 12:41 PM..
itb-volvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:14 PM   #11
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BFE Desert east of Cali
Default

Marc...thought about cryo'ing the pads? Sounds crazy I know, but it'll help the life, and MIGHT get you the extra time you need. It's more than doubled the life on the pad's on mom's minivan and she's hard on brakes as is the van by design. Brakes still performed 100% like stock, just the extra life (and lack of me needing to do another brake job) is a welcome deal.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:43 PM   #12
towerymt
the real Towery
 
towerymt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: VA, USA
Default

There's not much left, but we've never worn our front pads metal to metal during a race. 14.5hr usually, and they survived a full 24hr at PBIR when the car was non-turbo. I kind of doubt they would last 24hr now as we keep increasing power, but the front 240 volvo pads haven't given us any problems. Just the rears.

We had a kinked rear line that led to wearing rear pads to metal every 8hr at the 24hr@PBIR. Fixed that, tried some Hawk HP+ rear pads and they lasted the entire weekend at NJMP with material to spare. Went back to Volvo pads at Summit Point and they at least survived the ~10hr saturday session, may have changed them Sat. night. Then at Charlotte we went to metal 8hr into saturday and had to change them before the last driver stint. ~2hr sat. and ~5hr sunday, and they're almost dead again. Need to inspect rear brake system.

I'll be trying Akebono ceramic pads on the rear for the next race. Still gonna stick with the volvo front pads, but I'll have some used HP+ fronts and hawk blue fronts just in case. I bring a LOT of brake pads.
towerymt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 06:17 PM   #13
itb-volvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: P-town Or
Default

Fist Off thanks for all the input.

So I have heard of cryo'ing the rotors but not the pads. You do mean pads right?

Maybe will try the 240 setup with the Volvo pads and see what happens. Next race is a 10hr/7hr race I think so we will be able to how they will hold up for the 12hr

Marc
itb-volvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 06:21 PM   #14
Redwood Chair
- Stock PSI Or Bust -
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ocean Beach S.F.
Default

I have some old school ATE front pads for the harder original rotors before they went to organic pads and made the rotor material softer, and wear out like a 240.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=241978
__________________
Raise The Lowered


Image hosted by servimg.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi stock cna sprout?


Redwood Chair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 07:17 PM   #15
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BFE Desert east of Cali
Default

Yeah, pads indeed Marc. The local cryo shop I use actually recommended it. I was curious at first, it didn't cost much, and given the results, I'm VERY impressed. Elliott (orie) also has the full cryo'd setup on his wagon and loves it. Mom's minivan (07 grand caravan) would get around 35k from a set of front pads if she was lucky. Swapped to some mid-line raybestos pads, cryo'd em along with the rotors, and at 60k the pads are around 40-50%, rotors show no discernible wear, same driving style, and far less brake dust as well.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 08:41 PM   #16
Captain Bondo
Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
 
Captain Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Default

164 rotors are not quite bolt-in, 164's used wheel studs with a different shoulder on them. The parts were also getting difficult to source last time I bought them.

What do the rules allow? Are there any restrictions?
__________________


-Kenny
(I crushed a 240 with some stuff done to it. Honest.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Turbobricks isn't a car forum any more. Its a forum for lame kids.
Captain Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 09:35 PM   #17
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BFE Desert east of Cali
Default

The 164 studs pressed into my 140 hubs just fine.

For the OP....Bondo brings up a good point. You'll need the longer 164 studs as well, since the hats are a bit thicker.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 03:14 PM   #18
towerymt
the real Towery
 
towerymt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: VA, USA
Default

some pics of the 164 parts
http://www.pbase.com/blkaplan/bigbrakes

In 24hr lemons, brakes are not part of the budget. I've seen a crown vic wearing wilwoods on all four corners. So if you're willing to spend the money, you can do whatever you want. S60R brakes and 17x9 with 255/40/17 would be great. But would cost more than the whole car cost to build. We wouldn't have any more fun and we wouldn't win because of it, so it's not worth doing.

Our goal is the cheapest solution that will work. Like dog food and gasoline, start cheap, only spend more if you have to. I'm not willing to drop $155 on a set of Hawk front pads when $17.50/set will work. But when the cheap stuff stops working, I'll spend more.

I did PM Todd K about the R brakes, though.
towerymt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 05:26 PM   #19
itb-volvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: P-town Or
Default

With Chumpcar you can spend 2x as much as the factory part. I dont know what this stuff goes for from Volvo I suspect that there not cheap. But there is no reason to spend a bunch of money on something that does not need it. I knew about the studs and planed on changing them. I'll take all this info and put it to good work and let you know what we ended coming up with.

Marc
itb-volvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 11:06 PM   #20
itb-volvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: P-town Or
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
I'm actually running 240 calipers and 164 rotors without any issue. Had to clearance the calipers for width, don't remember having to clearance for diameter at all. Been running that set for a few years, haven't had a single issue with it at all, probably won't being everything is cryo'd as well, plus the car never gets driven. ;)
Question for ya. What did you do when it came time to attach a brake line to the lower hole on the caliper. I was planning on using a steal braided line but know see why Volvo has that little loop over hard line there. The lower balljoint gets on the way. Tried the little hard line but it looks as if the 140 caliper has a flair where the 240 caliper has a tapper. I suppose I could get a new hard line made up with the tapper but thought I would ask first.
Thanks
Marc
itb-volvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 02:45 AM   #21
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BFE Desert east of Cali
Default

I did go with a fresh hardline for that one. Just a short one with the correct caliper end and the correct end for the lines I had as well.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.