more crankcase ventilation

[nathaninwa]

Did some testing tonight, and Ill tell you what turbojose, I NEED a catch can. Just with the motor running, it pulls oil out! I need to take the valve cover off one more time to check on my lifters, so Ill baffle the inlet then, and do a catch can, and Ill take some pics for ya too.

But back to the testing.

Engine only, I only see .5 inch vacuum while idleing, any type of driving I see .1 with just the stock system, and under power, it stays at .1. So in my case, there is no crankcase pressure!

With both systems, stock and ford running all the time, I see upto .8 inches of vacuum while cruising and drops to .5 while under boost. So the half inch of vacuum is from the ford motor.

Now if I cap the stock system and run the ford motor all the time, I see almost 3 inches at idle, but gos upto 3.5 while cruising and drops slowly to half inch vacuum under 20psi. The weird thing is with the ford motor running all the time, I go into some positive at the throttle chop, not any more than a half pound pressure, but still its positive with ford motor running and stock system plugged.

[Homer]

Almost done plumbing this provent. The 1" inlets and outlets are goddamn obnoxiously huge. I need to get some reducers to the 5/8" hose.

[turbojose]

Originally Posted by Nathaninwa

Did some testing tonight, and Ill tell you what turbojose, I NEED a catch can. Just with the motor running, it pulls oil out! I need to take the valve cover off one more time to check on my lifters, so Ill baffle the inlet then, and do a catch can, and Ill take some pics for ya too.

But back to the testing.

Engine only, I only see .5 inch vacuum while idleing, any type of driving I see .1 with just the stock system, and under power, it stays at .1. So in my case, there is no crankcase pressure!

With both systems, stock and ford running all the time, I see upto .8 inches of vacuum while cruising and drops to .5 while under boost. So the half inch of vacuum is from the ford motor.

Now if I cap the stock system and run the ford motor all the time, I see almost 3 inches at idle, but gos upto 3.5 while cruising and drops slowly to half inch vacuum under 20psi. The weird thing is with the ford motor running all the time, I go into some positive at the throttle chop, not any more than a half pound pressure, but still its positive with ford motor running and stock system plugged.

If you get a baffle worked out for inside the valve cover, I might need your help to rework a valve cover for me....

[Lando]

Originally Posted by turbojose

If you get a baffle worked out for inside the valve cover, I might need your help to rework a valve cover for me....

I'll snap a pic when I get it done, but I am in the middle of constructing a stainless sheet metal oil separator with the same fitment and roughly the same size as the OEM plastic piece of ****. Mine will feature a larger opening in the baffle, and a stainless steel substrate, about 30mm below the top port.

Might consider selling them if the interest is there.

[745 TurboGreasel]

A wart on the valve cover might be the way to go, depending.

I'm thinking about trying this 03-05 5.9 Cummins part.
inlet is on the hidden bottom side.

[turbojose]

Originally Posted by Lando

I'll snap a pic when I get it done, but I am in the middle of constructing a stainless sheet metal oil separator with the same fitment and roughly the same size as the OEM plastic piece of ****. Mine will feature a larger opening in the baffle, and a stainless steel substrate, about 30mm below the top port.

Might consider selling them if the interest is there.

I think I may be interested if it works for separation better than the stock box.... Keep me posted.

[turbojose]

Hey nathan.... I'm not exactly sure how these work, but couldn't we use one of these to control flow from the valve cover?? seems like it may allow flow during boost, and dis-allow when intake is in vacuum... not sure though. any thoughts.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-f...611_195609.jpg

[nathaninwa]

I like that valve and have been looking for something in the 5/8 size electically. What I would like to do, is run the stock system with the stock block mounted pcv box, to catch can, to preturbo intake tube. (to this point, all I get is moisture draining out of the catchcan, and very so often a hint of oil so that black box on the engine is doing a really good job).


Now, this is what I would like to do.

Find a 5/8 electic valve and moutn that in the line from the catch can to the preturbo line. (that vacuum bypass valve would be slick, if we could find the exact moment it closed to turn the fomoco pump on)

Then I would weld another fitting, or T off the line from the catch can to the valve and run the fomoco hose with its valve post pump closed.

Then program it to shut of the stock line to preturbo when the fomoco pump turns on, letting the stock system work and the catch can already in the engine bay, and then we pull from the acutall crankcase. I have a crank scraper in my motor, so maybe oil mist is kept at a lower state than a motor without.

The ebay company (valves for projects) only gos to like 1/2 inch, and am having a hard time finding a cost effective brass solution that is full flow.

[lookforjoe]

If you're venting the cam cover, you really want a drain back to the block from your catch can. I tapped a port into the base of the stock breather box on my setup, it works.



No reason you couldn't work out a similar drain on the redblock breather. Whiteblocks also have a cam cover equalization port on the breather.

I made a large secondary can that contains the drainback. I followed Cpt Bondo's advice & made sure the ports were all at least 1/2" ID, and that the outlets are at least equal to the inlets. My can is internally baffled to force oil/vapor separation.



I have zero CC pressure under WOT, even running over 8K rpm (VTA - no intake vacuum draw on the setup).

I tested a Vibrant-style exhaust venturi





but, with a vaccum gauge attached, I still got positive pressure under WOT conditions, and no vacuum ever (gauge needle is not @ zero to start with).



The question is, what true benefit is achieved in terms of higher output (over 400WHP levels) by maintaining a vacuum vs. no vacuum, but no pressure either.

Nathan's current setup seems to be pretty much ideal, but in my case I really don't have any room to incorporate another device in the bay....

[nathaninwa]

Your bay is pretty crammed, mines getting there. If I can get something for next friday, Ill see what the vacuum does for dynoing. With the drain back to the pan, is it lower than the oil level? If not, there is pressure from the case in the catchcan too. Would be neat to have the tube like the stock redblock system does. Thats why I was thinking of using the oil drain plug area for this.

[turbojose]

Originally Posted by Nathaninwa

I like that valve and have been looking for something in the 5/8 size electically. What I would like to do, is run the stock system with the stock block mounted pcv box, to catch can, to preturbo intake tube. (to this point, all I get is moisture draining out of the catchcan, and very so often a hint of oil so that black box on the engine is doing a really good job).


Now, this is what I would like to do.

Find a 5/8 electic valve and moutn that in the line from the catch can to the preturbo line. (that vacuum bypass valve would be slick, if we could find the exact moment it closed to turn the fomoco pump on)

Then I would weld another fitting, or T off the line from the catch can to the valve and run the fomoco hose with its valve post pump closed.

Then program it to shut of the stock line to preturbo when the fomoco pump turns on, letting the stock system work and the catch can already in the engine bay, and then we pull from the acutall crankcase. I have a crank scraper in my motor, so maybe oil mist is kept at a lower state than a motor without.

The ebay company (valves for projects) only gos to like 1/2 inch, and am having a hard time finding a cost effective brass solution that is full flow.

I was looking online to try to find a 3 way elec. valve that would allow a switch from pre-turbo to vacuum pump, but had no luck... if you find a 5/8 elec valve, or a 3 way valve in any of searching please do share.

thanks

[nathaninwa]

Originally Posted by turbojose

I was looking online to try to find a 3 way elec. valve that would allow a switch from pre-turbo to vacuum pump, but had no luck... if you find a 5/8 elec valve, or a 3 way valve in any of searching please do share.

thanks

I will. Im running a 1/2 inch valve post fomoco pump to keep it sealed off while not running, but its on the pressure side of the pump so I didnt mind necking down a little. Ill keep searching, something like a fuel valve would be awsome.

[lookforjoe]

Originally Posted by Nathaninwa

Your bay is pretty crammed, mines getting there. If I can get something for next friday, Ill see what the vacuum does for dynoing. With the drain back to the pan, is it lower than the oil level? If not, there is pressure from the case in the catchcan too. Would be neat to have the tube like the stock redblock system does. Thats why I was thinking of using the oil drain plug area for this.

The breather box drain goes into an encased passage that enters the pan below the oil level, effectively the same at the old redblock design. A square passage At about one o'clock in the pic) that comes back up below the lower baffles (not shown)



I'll be very interested to see if your vacuum setup makes a difference on the dyno! That will certainly help determine the added value of the vacuum draw.

[nathaninwa]

I'm going to mak a quickyy catch can this week, even if I have to put the oil back into the case manually, I should have some back to back data.

I actually found some extra power today. My ecu when grounded needs to be 5* btdc, well a recheck today found I used the wrong mark on the balancer! I was retarded 7*! So I was low on timing everywhere, even more excitement for hitting the dyno this week.

[turbojose]

Ok, so after a few weeks of testing, I figured out that i really need to find a way to get the oil from the catch can to drain into the motor when I shut the motor off.... I have been doing some hard driving, and the catch can I have now only hold about a quart and a half, and it fills up after one day of heavy driving.... any ideas on drain backs in a closed pcv system?

[Lando]

Originally Posted by turbojose

Ok, so after a few weeks of testing, I figured out that i really need to find a way to get the oil from the catch can to drain into the motor when I shut the motor off.... I have been doing some hard driving, and the catch can I have now only hold about a quart and a half, and it fills up after one day of heavy driving.... any ideas on drain backs in a closed pcv system?

As others have stated, you have to plumb the return line below the oil sitting in the pan. Otherwise, the crank case pressure pressurizes both ports and does not allow it to return effectively to the oil pan.

[turbojose]

Originally Posted by Lando

As others have stated, you have to plumb the return line below the oil sitting in the pan. Otherwise, the crank case pressure pressurizes both ports and does not allow it to return effectively to the oil pan.

Ok, I get that ideally, it would have to plumb bellow the oil level in order to not pressurize, however, I'm just theorizing here, but who cares if it pressurises, if when you stop, and turn the car off, it drains back to the pan??? just wondering... what would be the drawbacks?

[Rick Dorion]

My Saab 9-5 drains back to the top of the pan OK. I too had an oil consumption issue (common) on the turbo inlet side coming from the PCV. I used an aftermarket separator but like the provent. Where did you purchase it?

[turbojose]

Originally Posted by Rick Dorion

My Saab 9-5 drains back to the top of the pan OK. I too had an oil consumption issue (common) on the turbo inlet side coming from the PCV. I used an aftermarket separator but like the provent. Where did you purchase it?

I purchased mine here: http://www.42draftdesigns.com/catego...catchcans.html

I have a picture of it installed in post #128

[atrokz]

With the way the simple catch cans are seperating via baffling and condensation, and not an actual filtering membrane like ursan's got, do you really want that "oil" making it's way back into your crankcase (so, bearings)? It's not just oil anymore, so why not just dump it and top off the oil now and then? Take a look at the color alone of the oil caught by the CC and see for yourself.

[Lando]

Originally Posted by atrokz

With the way the simple catch cans are seperating via baffling and condensation, and not an actual filtering membrane like ursan's got, do you really want that "oil" making it's way back into your crankcase (so, bearings)? It's not just oil anymore, so why not just dump it and top off the oil now and then? Take a look at the color alone of the oil caught by the CC and see for yourself.

Actually it is just oil. The stock system does just fine dropping the oil back into the pan, its just not very good at it.

[dbarton]

Originally Posted by turbojose

the catch can I have now only hold about a quart and a half, and it fills up after one day of heavy driving

that seems like a lot of oil. Is there a baffle under the hose nipple on the valve cover? If not, I'm thinking that could cause lots of oil to get pushed out.
Dave B

[atrokz]

Originally Posted by Lando

Actually it is just oil.

And gasoline, water, and carbon, which is contaminating the oil. Hence the reason when people drain the oil from CC's it's always a 1 cream coffee color, and looks nothing like the oil in the crankcase should look like. Bobistheoilguy has a few threads on this that supports it being contaminated. It's probably good that the stock seperator isn't very good, and I don't mind topping off the oil every few weeks to keep this stuff out:

Here's an interesting write up by a CC manufacturer
http://www.corksport.com/blog/produc...release-notes/


Do you want that being dropped back into the pan?

[turbojose]

Originally Posted by dbarton

that seems like a lot of oil. Is there a baffle under the hose nipple on the valve cover? If not, I'm thinking that could cause lots of oil to get pushed out.
Dave B

No Baffle.... I would consider it, But I haven't figured out how to do it yet

[Lando]

Originally Posted by atrokz

Do you want that being dropped back into the pan?

There shouldn't be much gasoline getting past the rings or you've got a problem. I understand some HC's get by, and the carbon I can deal with. Thats what an oil filter is for. Thats also one of the reasons why you change your oil. My oil still looks pretty honey colored after 4-5k miles because I use quality synthetic and a proper filter. It's not worth the trouble of having to drain some rigged bottle and top off your oil every few weeks, when a drain back works just fine.

And those numbers seem artificially high. I have seen plenty of oil sample analysis reports and they never have that much silicone, or metals. And these are on toyotas that use silicone only (no hard gasket) for oil pan, valve cover, timing cover etc. Supercharged 5.7's are pretty hard on their oil and i've still never seen anything that high on those.