How much Power can you get out of a N/A 240

All this arguing and posting of numbers is pointless, the OP is not going to do any of it.

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Possibly, but that doesn't mean others are not intersted, in a least the knowledge of how to do it.

Plus, it's interesting to see what the Volvo n/a race teams did. One day, I'd like to build a n/a B230 hot rod myself.

Masa71 said:

I?ll put in an example, quess Fuse is still busy translating the whole thread


B230E
- lightened flywheel
- 96 mm bore
- 405 head, "cleaned" and shaved 2mm
- Cam 272/109/12 (Rintakarin "H+")
- CR 11,5:1
- header 4-1 (38-60 / 730)
- exhaust 60mm, single 2,5" silencer
- electric fan
- LE-jet + stock intake
- Renix, no limiter + relocated sensor

173 hv @ 5530 rpm 242 Nm @ 4440 rpm B230E (cam H+, 4-1 header, LE-jet)
181 hv @ 5700 rpm 247 Nm @ 4800 rpm B230E (cam H+, 4-1 header, LE-jet, -0,2 mm shaved from block)


Dyno chart, blue lines are B230K results.
http://crazyracing.pp.fi/pics/b230e_b230k_272_109_12.jpg

Click to expand...

So it has a bit more power than a stock mildly warmed up boat motor (or equivelant) that runs regular gas, isn't really made to go that fast, just go at all, but runs premium 94 (we have horrible ca 91 available) or race gas?

Why a 405 and mismatched timing cover instead of 531 on b230e thing? (same difference with more matching hardware).

Honestly, the boat motor probably has 160-170hp stock with appropriate timing curve, decent exhaust manifold, even on non-emissions 6cylinder size Venturi bowl non emissions stock ci injection with lovely smooth idle, easy to use torque...just a slightly larger displacement longer stroke b23e h cam arrangement basically...lower static compression ratio preheated air carb pistons...and on regular gas and predictable service (relatively for something modified or swapped).

a lot depends on fuel/alltiude/dyno type and target use.. but just to anoy the protaginest!! the max hp target with modified ome parts is{envelope please} 125 hp{sae} per liter at flywheel . the reason every body should know how to build the max na engine is if yuo change the cams fuel sys and add a sorted turbo sys to a maxed na you should get 200hp per liter and still have a d/d with longevity {drive style excluded} {ive killed engines that wouldnt have died} so read the parts list, auto/marine/industrial and do the sums... p.s. the pump and gen units made by penta, ie the aq171 equivelent made 196 hp and were not more than tweked up versions with rewoked fuel systems.. just an after thought, dose NO2 rate as na or boosted overthere? theres little mention on here, is it legal or dont you use it for some other reason? just to even the record... agood system with run/boost apps will return 160/200 hp per liter but costs{fuel price/no2} and shortens engine life considerably!!!

So, with some very careful clean up, in good health (maybe carefully rebuilt?), the hottest oem b23E or b230e has about 20ish more hp in it?

No compromise, regular gas, don't need to know anything special to keep it on the road if factory installed in the car, good economy.

A tbricker would be lucky to get to that point, using mostly free junkyard everything in good shape. Plus tools, skill, experience, machine shop access and dyno time. Guilty as charged.

There's na options, just not so much no compromise readily there on $200 max a whack budget and race car dreams with experience and wisdom of a rock. I don't even believe that most tbrickers recognize value in even the mcammed b23f and fully understand why it is the way it is configured.

Pretty moot when a heater fan, wiper motor, wiring harness, seat foam, engine parts and on and on are nla for the cars and there's no money or volume in just keeping them on the road or whatever. Or broad factory supported knowledge base (teams of guide in white labcoats wih factories and labratories) and millions to work with.

vvpete said:

It's 100 hp/liter you need to surpass, which is 1.6X more than 1hp/ci
like asking for 500 hp from a350 sbc, not so easy w/stock parts or motor

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Comparing HP without looking at the torque numbers is worthless when comparing displacements with such a large variance.
Torque is the real power, a 1l may make 160+hp, but how much torque per litre?

John V said:

Well there isn't anything in those motors other than the normal old hot rodder tricks.. and maybe we should use the word 'tricks' since it's all very basic things; compression, a camshaft that actually does something, valves big enough---and it seems that 46mm is about the limit, few CFM are seen above that., and enough air and sprinkle in some fuel---and light it off at the right time...
Basic stuff.
230 from a 2340 is damn good but at the same time its what we'd expect when we see other 4 cylinder 2,0 motors doing 200-210 bhp...

Rememeber these guys want fat meaty torquey delivery, so the 230 is at realistic rpm---7000 isn't crazy...

And since we know the definition of HP is "torque x rpm" , ya want more, then rev it more...

Of course my interests are always more ft/lbs so hp to me is incidental to gobs of torque+ability to over-rev when needed.


The article doesn't get into any juicy details, its all about the comparison between the Standard, the VOC car and the crazy differences in the "typical" club car....
The one interesting point they did say was the acceleration figures are impressive but don't forget that the TIME on Special Stages will be effected also by the much better brakes, and final drive compared with the other 2 cars....

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I noticed at lot of these "suped" up NA blocks run carbs. Is it possible to get similar power with FI?

Masa71 said:

I?ll put in an example, quess Fuse is still busy translating the whole thread


B230E
- lightened flywheel
- 96 mm bore
- 405 head, "cleaned" and shaved 2mm
- Cam 272/109/12 (Rintakarin "H+")
- CR 11,5:1
- header 4-1 (38-60 / 730)
- exhaust 60mm, single 2,5" silencer
- electric fan
- LE-jet + stock intake
- Renix, no limiter + relocated sensor

173 hv @ 5530 rpm 242 Nm @ 4440 rpm B230E (cam H+, 4-1 header, LE-jet)
181 hv @ 5700 rpm 247 Nm @ 4800 rpm B230E (cam H+, 4-1 header, LE-jet, -0,2 mm shaved from block)


Dyno chart, blue lines are B230K results.
http://crazyracing.pp.fi/pics/b230e_b230k_272_109_12.jpg

Click to expand...

NEEWMAANNN!!!!

You guys and Newmans! lol thanks for the translation. See that's the type of information we need. Power Recipes, love 'em. Got any more?





John V. and Masa71, if I start a thread in Article Composition, would you guys be willing to ad the NA info you have there? My plan is to take all of your information, work it together into one informative post (of course site you guys as contributors and sources) and try to get it stickied. What do you guys think?

In the forum/conversation format, everyone has a voice and conversations tend to take tangents.

Proprietary information published for free backed up by factories with their liabilities of full disclosure in scientific format it is not.

Limiting air time of voices as the default method, however loud and crudely they shout a perhaps narrow message, probably won't help greatly. But giving equal air time to no experience, no punctuation, no long term or short term observations wih no value attached and documented might not help a lot, either.

aaronllewellyn said:

Of course you could +t but how much estimated horsepower could you gain from other modifications, like a different Camshaft (and what is considered the best camshaft?) to eventually build up to a turbo project.

I see allot about cams from IPD, RSI etc..., what kinds of power gains have you had from them, from what I read stock Volvo 240 cams seem like garbage. (personal experience is a plus)\

the Volvo I own is a 1987 Volvo 240DL, currently with the IPD sport exhaust, and turbo sway bars, sport springs and Bilstein struts in the mail (thanks to fellow Tbrickers)

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Redwood Chair said:

I do believe the topic is as follows;

How much Power can you get out of a N/A 240

Not;

How much is a broke assed turbobricker unwilling to spend on NA power

<---

Carry on...

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so the title of the thread may be one thing, but the actual question was about NA cams(and similar upgrades) and possible power from those upgrades

so yeah, sorry if i don't want theoretical "if i can make _____ engine make _____ hp i can easily make a NA redblock make OVER 9000 HORSEYPOWERS!!!111!!!11!1!1"

but when we have as many NA redblocks making 250whp as we now have turbo redblocks making 250whp, then i'll give a **** about these "easy" high hp NA redblocks.

till then, cam, exhaust, tuneup, ditch weight and drive the piss out of that 100hp beast

Masa71 said:

I?ll put in an example, quess Fuse is still busy translating the whole thread

Click to expand...

Yeah, ~13 Word pages of N/A info. I'll post it tomorrow.

945ti said:

So it has a bit more power than a stock mildly warmed up boat motor (or equivelant) that runs regular gas, isn't really made to go that fast, just go at all, but runs premium 94 (we have horrible ca 91 available) or race gas?

Why a 405 and mismatched timing cover instead of 531 on b230e thing? (same difference with more matching hardware).

Honestly, the boat motor probably has 160-170hp stock with appropriate timing curve, decent exhaust manifold, even on non-emissions 6cylinder size Venturi bowl non emissions stock ci injection with lovely smooth idle, easy to use torque...just a slightly larger displacement longer stroke b23e h cam arrangement basically...lower static compression ratio preheated air carb pistons...and on regular gas and predictable service (relatively for something modified or swapped).

Click to expand...

How many of these boat motors can you find in a shape which can be raced immediately? I guess none. I guess it's hard enough even find these boat motors to install in a road going car...

Basic engine jobs are quite cheap in here, I don't know if it is the same deal across the pond, but for example if you want to get a cam welded and grinded for custom ~300 degree cam it's about 50 to 100 euros in here.

If you can put the engine together your self, it's not like you'll need tens of thousands of dollars or euros to build a decen't powered ~200hp N/A machine. If you are racing in some motorsport class then it's another thing but then you have sponsors and you can buy an EVO Engine from MDS.

-Marko

olov said:

so the title of the thread may be one thing, but the actual question was about NA cams(and similar upgrades) and possible power from those upgrades

so yeah, sorry if i don't want theoretical "if i can make _____ engine make _____ hp i can easily make a NA redblock make OVER 9000 HORSEYPOWERS!!!111!!!11!1!1"

but when we have as many NA redblocks making 250whp as we now have turbo redblocks making 250whp, then i'll give a **** about these "easy" high hp NA redblocks.

till then, cam, exhaust, tuneup, ditch weight and drive the piss out of that 100hp beast

Click to expand...

If you don't care about this topic, then why the hell do you keep coming in here and trying to stir something up. If you don't like this thread either report it or stay out of it. And if you know how to fully comprehend what you read you would notice this:

Of course you could +t but how much estimated horsepower could you gain from other modifications, like a different Camshaft (and what is considered the best camshaft?) to eventually build up to a turbo project.

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He asked about "other modifications" and used a camshaft as an example of some of the information he was looking for. Not limiting it to camshafts. If that was a case then the original post and title would of been "what is the best NA camshaft for a 240"

This is not the off topic section, so stay out if you have nothing to contribute.

Fuse said:

Yeah, ~13 Word pages of N/A info. I'll post it tomorrow.
-Marko

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Thanks Marko, I look forward to checking out what you have for us.

The problem is the "best camshaft" isn't going to be the same for every engine, there are too many differences in every build.

He gave his input, if you don't like it that's your problem. The NA power discussion is one that has gone on for years, years of answering the same questions over and over again, all with the same results. For some an A cam might be best, others might want a KG8. It all depends on how it is matched to the rest of the engine and powertrain. The best cam will only be the best in that car without knowing all of the factors.

JohnV knows a bit about NA Volvo stuff from his rally experience, and several on here have raced NA cars. They have added some input into this thread and others over the years this horse has been beaten.

badvlvo said:

The problem is the "best camshaft" isn't going to be the same for every engine, there are too many differences in every build.

He gave his input, if you don't like it that's your problem. The NA power discussion is one that has gone on for years, years of answering the same questions over and over again, all with the same results. For some an A cam might be best, others might want a KG8. It all depends on how it is matched to the rest of the engine and powertrain. The best cam will only be the best in that car without knowing all of the factors.

JohnV knows a bit about NA Volvo stuff from his rally experience, and several on here have raced NA cars. They have added some input into this thread and others over the years this horse has been beaten.

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You mean like the whole turbo discussion

But this is why we need to have an NA performance FAQ stickied here in the performance section. New members are constantly joying (I'm constantly recruiting Volvo-ites) and the search sucks. Plus when ever someone mentions NA power they get brow beaten into either shutting up or going the +T route. And you can't say that it is not true.

If someone is looking for more power beyond what a cam and exhaust will give on an NA they are going to be steered towards a turbo.
These cars were available as turbo, and it's very easy to add a turbo to the car. You can get 200whp out of a turbo car for what it would cost to get 140whp out of an NA car, and do it without opening the motor beyond a cam swap.

The TURBO discussion exists because that's where you can make real power with these engines. You notice that there aren't any high HP NA motors on here? For the same money or less you can make 50-300% more power. If you want to make power why would you **** around spending thousands for a motor that makes 200hp when you can make 200hp off stock **** easily with an MBC?

There's no point in a FAQ when people don't understand how all of the components work together and how this relationship creates power. A cam swap won't provide the same increase in HP in every instance, this will vary based on the condition of the engine and the components surrounding it, and how it works with any other modifications. This is TURBOBRICKS, not NABRICKS. Spend your money where you want, don't bother listening to those of us who have been doing this for years, and know a little something about making power, it makes no difference to me.

badvlvo said:

If someone is looking for more power beyond what a cam and exhaust will give on an NA they are going to be steered towards a turbo.

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Umm.. No? For example many motorsport class regulations at the Nordic area regulate turbo motors out quite clearly....

These cars were available as turbo, and it's very easy to add a turbo to the car. You can get 200whp out of a turbo car for what it would cost to get 140whp out of an NA car, and do it without opening the motor beyond a cam swap.

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Opening a motor doesn't cost you a damn thing. If you put a turbo on a motor without opening it I think you would be retarded. Basic engine rehaul costs you at max couple hunderds, that's nothing when you count what keeping the car alone costs you yearly.

The TURBO discussion exists because that's where you can make real power with these engines. You notice that there aren't any high HP NA motors on here? For the same money or less you can make 50-300% more power. If you want to make power why would you **** around spending thousands for a motor that makes 200hp when you can make 200hp off stock **** easily with an MBC?

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Just because there aren't too many N/A high powered engines at the other side of the pond, doesn't mean that the N/A powered engines would be totally irrelevant. Like I said, you can make about 300-350hp easily with "just boosting the **** out of it", but if you want to make anything more than a highly restricted redblock with a turbo you really have to do all the same things you would be doing with an N/A engine..

There's no point in a FAQ when people don't understand how all of the components work together and how this relationship creates power.

Click to expand...

If you don't understand then it's your problem. Read god damnit, it's not rocket science.

This is TURBOBRICKS, not NABRICKS. Spend your money where you want, don't bother listening to those of us who have been doing this for years, and know a little something about making power, it makes no difference to me.

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Yeah this is TURBObricks and you fellows probably don't have the best available knoweldge about N/A redblocks..

And yeah my fastest car is equipped with a TURBO redblock, but still I understand the god damn basics of an engine tuning... Of course if you are building your stuff with $1 budget, JB Weld and zip ties then it's another thing...


-Marko

CaliMeatWagon said:

If you don't care about this topic, then why the hell do you keep coming in here and trying to stir something up. If you don't like this thread either report it or stay out of it. And if you know how to fully comprehend what you read you would notice this:

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post #3 of this thread

olov said:

cam will do a lot to help it rev easier. i ditched ac/power steering, efan would help too, manual transmission(m47 is nice but 1st is still short) with a 3.73 rear end(from an automatic car usually), my rear muffler got clogged so i tossed it and left the resonator(it's straight through) ditch whatever weight you can, stiffen the suspension and it'll feel better for sure.

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i listed what i did to my NA redblock - 88 240 - hey, very similar to the OP's, but yeah, that's me being an ass and unhelpful, and uninterested in the topic

how about if YOU want to pick jv's brain search his old posts or pm him

and if YOU have no idea how to make NA power google it(since our search sucks). the quick and dirty(or what i've read from my previous tb research) bore it, stroke it, lighten it, up the cr, port it, cam it, good flowing manifold/exhaust, and rev it, just like this said

B230E
- lightened flywheel
- 96 mm bore
- 405 head, "cleaned" and shaved 2mm
- Cam 272/109/12 (Rintakarin "H+")
- CR 11,5:1
- header 4-1 (38-60 / 730)
- exhaust 60mm, single 2,5" silencer
- electric fan
- LE-jet + stock intake
- Renix, no limiter + relocated sensor

Click to expand...

Fuse said:

Umm.. No? For example many motorsport class regulations at the Nordic area regulate turbo motors out quite clearly....

Click to expand...

Ok, that's the specific rules for your motorsport class. Variations still occur in even identical builds.

Opening a motor doesn't cost you a damn thing. If you put a turbo on a motor without opening it I think you would be retarded. Basic engine rehaul costs you at max couple hunderds, that's nothing when you count what keeping the car alone costs you yearly.

Click to expand...

So maybe in Finland your gaskets and fluids are free, and you get paid time off work to tear down your motor whenever you blow it up?
Retarded to turbo a motor without opening it up? Really?

How many here have +t'd their car without opening the motor? Many of them drive these cars daily without problems. I guess they are all retarded

Keeping my car costs me very little yearly, but would go up by a lot if I decided to tear down my engine yearly.

Just because there aren't too many N/A high powered engines at the other side of the pond, doesn't mean that the N/A powered engines would be totally irrelevant. Like I said, you can make about 300-350hp easily with "just boosting the **** out of it", but if you want to make anything more than a highly restricted redblock with a turbo you really have to do all the same things you would be doing with an N/A engine..

Click to expand...

A "highly restricted redblock with a turbo" will make more power than your NA with aftermarket internals, expensive head work, custom cams and a peaky powerband.

Sure, you can do internals on a turbo motor the same as an NA, then you can make even MORE horsepower.

If you don't understand then it's your problem. Read god damnit, it's not rocket science.

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I understand more than most, but many do not. That's what I said, and since you can post in English I am sure that you can understand the English language well enough to read again and MAYBE understand.

Yeah this is TURBObricks and you fellows probably don't have the best available knoweldge about N/A redblocks..

And yeah my fastest car is equipped with a TURBO redblock, but still I understand the god damn basics of an engine tuning... Of course if you are building your stuff with $1 budget, JB Weld and zip ties then it's another thing...


-Marko

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Well "Marko," many of us have a pretty good understanding of redblocks both NA and turbo, and engines in general. Think about the money being spend to build a 250hp NA redblock, and then think about how much more power you would make adding a turbo.

If you want to get condescending and be a prick I can play this game.


Just to jog your memory-

The OP of this thread said:

How much Power can you get out of a N/A 240

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you could +t but how much estimated horsepower could you gain from other modifications, like a different Camshaft (and what is considered the best camshaft?) to eventually build up to a turbo project.

I see allot about cams from IPD, RSI etc..., what kinds of power gains have you had from them, from what I read stock Volvo 240 cams seem like garbage. (personal experience is a plus)\

the Volvo I own is a 1987 Volvo 240DL, currently with the IPD sport exhaust, and turbo sway bars, sport springs and Bilstein struts in the mail (thanks to fellow Tbrickers)

Click to expand...

But I guess he's retarded too for wanting to add a turbo?
The cam that works best with an NA application will not the be best for a turbo application. And this all depends on how it works with the other modifications, and who knows whats been done.

badvlvo said:

So maybe in Finland your gaskets and fluids are free, and you get paid time off work to tear down your motor whenever you blow it up?

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Gaskets and fluids cost few hundreds mostly per one engine build. If that kills your budget you shouldn?t be building an engine? I don?t count a hourly pay for my hobbies, because that is something I enjoy doing at my free time. I haven?t yet blown up any engine. But I have build a few..

Retarded to turbo a motor without opening it up? Really?

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Yes. I wouldn?t build a single engine without opening it because opening an engine doesn't really cost you anything. Gaskets, bearings and such are peanuts. If that kills your budget, you should really be considering your priorities about spending money.

Keeping my car costs me very little yearly, but would go up by a lot if I decided to tear down my engine yearly.

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My -98 S90 takes about 1000 Euros in insurances per year, if I drive 10 000km with it the gas cost wil be around ~2500 Euros at least. Vehicle taxes are around ~250 Euros per year and then there are all the actual costs for maintainance etc? I have also an -82 240 with mildly tuned B23A engine and I also have a quite highly modified -87 360 GLT Turbo, which also have insurance costs, gas costs, taxes, MOTs and suchs.. So gaskets and fluids for these vehicles really don?t count a damn thing in the whole scheme.

A "highly restricted redblock with a turbo" will make more power than your NA with aftermarket internals, expensive head work, custom cams and a peaky powerband.

Click to expand...

Are you sure? Here?s a good example what a properly built N/A redblock can do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLRxncNG67I

I understand more than most, but many do not. That's what I said, and since you can post in English I am sure that you can understand the English language well enough to read again and MAYBE understand.

Well "Marko," many of us have a pretty good understanding of redblocks both NA and turbo, and engines in general. Think about the money being spend to build a 250hp NA redblock, and then think about how much more power you would make adding a turbo.

Click to expand...

250hp in turbo form is of course more easily achieved. I don?t think I have made any other statements. But 250hp in N/A form doesn?t require a billionaire budget, if you are a person who has a steady job you can build a 250hp N/A engine if you want.. That was my point.

If you want to get condescending and be a prick I can play this game.

Click to expand...

I don?t want to be condescending and be a prick, if I would I would be writing you in Finnish or in Swedish and I would be posting your name in quotes as you did with mine. But as I?m above that I won?t be doing that.

Just to jog your memory-
But I guess he's retarded too for wanting to add a turbo?
The cam that works best with an NA application will not the be best for a turbo application. And this all depends on how it works with the other modifications, and who knows whats been done.

Click to expand...

No He is NOT retarded, but also not everyone are retarded who are considering N/A power above the turbo solution.

The expense of gaskets isn't that great, but many people don't want to get into that when they add power to their car. And many have added significant power to their cars without opening the engine.
It's not necessary.

Sure, it's always nice to tear it down and freshen everything up, and in a perfect world we would all have the time and money to do so. But in reality many of us are doing this as a hobby and don't want to spend money that isn't necessary for our performance goals.

I have not said that people who want to build an NA motor are retarded, but they are not spending their money as effectively to make horsepower in an application where the engine isn't getting a total rebuild.

Then there's the drivability. I have yet to see a high output NA motor that is more drivable than a turbo motor of equal or even greater output.

Redwood Chair said:

The serious Volvo people never hang out long.

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FFS I don't wonder why anymore... (Though don't worry I'll be still posting the engine recive vs. dyno chart list soon).

Like I said this isn't about pissing contest about TURBO vs. N/A.

I don't see what would be disadvantage if people would see what gains can be achieved with different N/A upgrades... It won't be taking anything from the TURBO crowd... I my self own both engines so I'm not biased in any direction. I just hate ignorance.


-Marko