Things from a different point of NOoB

[Dysfunxion]

Hello all,
just got my "shiny new" 86 760 and after chasing fuel leaks it's ready to drive (btw put in all new 3/8 fuel line instead of the tiny 5/16 LOL click here to find out why http://www.stevetek.com/R-FuelSys.html ) being that i come from a school of turbo owners, i once owned 3 DSM's in a previous life, i have done all the tune-up and routine maintenance and want to start in on the fun. But first i have a question or 2. Has anyone played with a "grounding kit"? yah know one of those 10 wire kits that I or anyone else could make at home for half the price? most of the wires in the engine bay are corroded or in some way oxidized and iI have seen real world gains on just about every car that has had one. Next why hasnt anyone "Hardwired" their fuel pump? Or did everyone do it and not mention it? by hardwire i mean run a new direct from the battery power wire to the pumps power and use a bosch (or other) relay and the factory power to turn it on at the relay? it helps alot http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumptechtip.htm and "everyone else is doing it!" from eclipses to the turbo gods of the buick GN......

anyways im sure i'll come up with more later but had to drop in and share my .02$ TTFN!

[the poi]

Grounding is useful if you have bad grounds, not really a consistent problem with Volvos. Same with the the fuel pumps, for that matter. And in any event, the pump circuit is as direct as you can get, power is switched directly by a two coil relay to the pumps.

[Dysfunxion]

not to be a S#!* starter but ok you heard that have you tested that my general theory is if it works for hp/tq numbers on EVERY CAR MADE than why not for the volvo plus guys face it most of our cars we are speaking of here are at least a decade old. Rust happens Grounds are good please do some research........

As for your reply to "hardwireing" your pump have you tested the voltage at the pump? I haven't...geuss I will. (I'll post results in a few days when im back home) and direct is not the issue voltage loss over wire is. If it will help any hi-po Jap car (supra rx-7 skyline) or even as i mentioned the Buick GN. why would you say your car which was NOT designed for factory performance be ok?

Again not to start sh!# but some times my tone of type comes off that way......

[Forg]

You can't get more power by adding extra ground wires, where things are grounding properly in the first place. In fact, there's so little current flowing through the majority of ground-wires that it could be 90% rusted-up, and the car would still work just as well.

It's the same deal with the pump power supply. It is not true that more voltage = more fuel = more power!! Think about how EFI works; if the pump couldn't supply enough fuel, the engine would lean-out & you'd get error codes. So the pump is already supplying as much fuel as the engine can handle, and all you do by giving the pump more juice (if it does increase fuel-flow) is extra unused fuel flowing back to the tank.
To my mind, if you're modifying a car & an extra 0.5v at the pump is required to get your car running properly, then you should really be fitting a better pump anyway; you're stretching the existing pump too far, which is looking for trouble.

[the poi]

ya, what forg said. More grounding won't help unless you're having a problem due to bad grounds... a miniscule increase in fuel flow wont help unless you're losing fuel pressure. Theres cheaper ways of making actual power, don't waste money on neon power...

[740TurboPerformance]

First, welcome to the forum, second . . .

I have to disagree with some of our guys about the grounding issue . . . . many vehicles, including ours are not in fact grounded as well as they could have been in the first place, adding a secondary ground to my alternator actually felt as if it helped a bit, I'M NOT SAYING it made a big difference but I know my Volvo really well and feel every little difference when I change or experiment with things. May sound more like a pathetic mod contrary to installing a bigger turbo and running 15-20PSI of boost but it can help a little, the old ground setup doesn't have to be dirty, inadequate or rusted necessarily either. I was reading in some import and sport tuning magazine that even brand new Hondas, where the grounds were reinforced with thicker gauge cable that there was up to a 7HP increase DYNOED, DOCUMENTED, BEFORE AND AFTER. Of course, different types of vehicles will surely vary. These are late model cars you'd expect to be grounded well enough and probably are for normal applications. I thought it was BS but after adding a secondary ground, grounding it out to my intake manifold where the fuel injectors are grounded in addition to my already brand new alternator ground (OE, revised slightly thicker replacement), this actually felt as if it helped a little. Even if it's just 1HP or half a HP, quarter HP. Even if for some reason doesn't do anything but keeps your voltmeter a tad higher when using your headlights and battery charged better, it helps. Bigger grounds help get more voltage and more consistant and less interuptable voltage (turning on headlights, foglights, air, stereo). More voltage (not more than what is acceptable of course), helps. I can say this with confidence because the lower my voltmeter is my Volvo feels a little slower, same with my other Volvo. Improving alternator and engine grounding can also help supply more power or more consistant, less uniteruptable power to your coil to help with a stronger ignition system. Maybe because I run a .044 gap I needed the increase in voltage, which is why I felt the slight difference, I don't know but something like this that can't hurt and will only likely only help can't hurt or whatever. Now on the other hand, I personally don't think that changing the OE wiring setup to the fuel pump is necessary unless you need a lot of fuel, I mean a lot and are upgrading to a more powerful fuel pump where the voltage requirements are increased. Thicker Fuel lines probably not necessary either unless you need a lot of fuel I'd say. I mean there are guys here that have ran up to 22PSI of boost probably the OE fuel lines.

[740Weapon]

umm. our fuel pumps are big enough to support injectors that are nearly twice as big. nuff said. if you want more fuel pressure u change regulators. if you want more fuel you change injectors. fuel pump rewires are a hick thing rx-7 owners do. because those cars have some strange issues.

if you want to ground the hell out of your engine thats your buisness. i will when i do an engine swap this summer. i dont expect any gains from it. its just something to do as part of a quality engine bay. and the honda thing... it probably gained 7 hp from the sensors being grounded better and the readings changing slightly that go to the ems.

[740TurboPerformance]

I don't have a Honda and I noticed a small difference? Not 7HP but I noticed a bit more pickup. It's not just Hondas either, it's other imports too, that's why these "grounding" kits are so popular, they've been verified to provide increases when dynoed before and after. Voltage does have something to do with power gentleman. As my voltmeter would start to read lower, the amount of power I felt used to slightly decrease along with it. I don't think that putting huge ground wires all over the engine bay is going to do much better than adding some secondary ground wires, you can only ground everything out so much so I'm definately not for those huge ground wire kits. But keeping the grounds clean, replacing the alternator ground wire after 13 years and adding a secondary wire can definately help throttle response and power, enough where you can feel it if you are able to notice small differences in your car. I have no reason to lie, I it didn't do anything I'd love to jump on the bandwagon and say it didn't and doesn't but that's not necessarily true.

[the poi]

Originally Posted by 740TurboPerformance

I don't have a Honda and I noticed a small difference? Not 7HP but I noticed a bit more pickup. It's not just Hondas either, it's other imports too, that's why these "grounding" kits are so popular,

they're popular cause they're cheap, easy to install and noninvasive. Other things that aren't invasive: neon lights, gauges, spoilers.

[740TurboPerformance]

So people are stuck on an assumption that they do absolutely nothing for you and are only for looks? They're popular because it's made a dynoed difference in many cars, you'd have to be pretty pathetic to go around "hey, hey man, how about I open my hood and show you my engine grounds", let's be adult here. I don't think the ground kits and neon lights are the same thing. I just think you guys are stuck on being anti-import, which is fine, I understand becuase I stereotype ricers myself however there are a few that aren't playing games like the looser civics and integras I was beating before I even modded anything on my car.

[the poi]

Originally Posted by 740TurboPerformance

you'd have to be pretty pathetic to go around "hey, hey man, how about I open my hood and show you my engine grounds",

...but thats what people do... cause thats all they're really good for...


and goddamn it, its "loser", stop it with the extra goddamn 'o' .

[740TurboPerformance]

but thats what people do... cause thats all they're really good for...
and goddamn it, its "loser", stop it with the extra goddamn 'o' .

WTF? why don't you stop it, your misinformation is that re-inforced grounds can't do anything, that's bullsh**t, just cause it's what you'd like to think doesn't make it true. Even if it can yield a half HP it does something for you, even if it helps your electrical system provide more consistant voltage, it helps your engine management run better. VOLTAGE CAN MAKE A F***'n difference EVEN IF SMALL AND I WONT STOP IT! And I'll just keep going just cause you told me to stop, just to spite you. I'm not saying that going with one of those overly humungous ground kits is what our members need, but re-inforcing your alternator and engine grounds can help, even if it's just a small bit. I've done it, I know, now you stop!

[scubthebub]

now, now children... behave

[740TurboPerformance]

hahaha, dammit nOoB, see what you started! J/K!

[jpbturbo]

I wish I had a Honda.
With an F20C

[mikep]

Greetings, Dysfunxion.
You are right about checking voltage drops first before adding the wiring.
Higher performance pumps might pull enough amps to make upgraded wiring necessary.
But remember, like you said about "you heard", those HP gains might be seat horsepower, not rear wheel horsepower

it sounds more like a different way to show laziness.

the potential for improved fuel pump preformance via improved wiring sizes/dual relays has been discussed at least four times here in the past 18 months. I would suggest some due diligence in searching and reading before pontificating.

the need for added ground wires may be quite applicable in other makes of cars. While not perfect, Volvo has done a better job of providing ground circuit paths [including redundant cables] in their cars for years, when compared to most domestic AND asian imports. I again suggest due diligence in research to know what you are even trying to push as some new essential mod. Adding in redundant ground cables on cars that never had them is a laudable endeavor. FYI, Volvo has been doing that for years.

Even so, the need to verify ground path effectiveness has been a fairly regular hint and reminder given in the maintenance forum....for a long time. To the point that, many times when a problem is brought up, the seeker of assistance mentions that he has gone over his ground circuit connections. For the third redundant time, I suggest due diligence in research to know the subject, and your audience, before pontificating.

Perhaps what is most tiresome is the attitude that if ricers need something because the factory was too cheapass to do it right on the assembly line, then all cars need the same thing. Due diligence in research would dispel that delusional notion....possibly....but somehow I doubt it.

Welcome to the forum. I would suggest a lightening up on pushing "new hotness" rice mods [that aren't new or hot] that many here have been doing since before most of the ricers got out of diapers.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

[240Psycho]

great you anul bastards scared another guy off

[coldfusion21]

maybe thats a good thing. the last thing i need is some guy saying that because he owned 3 DSM's and he did stuff with them, that thats the right thing to do with my car. if he wants to do that with his time and money, sure, go for it. but no way should he come in here and start saying that its "essential" or that everyone should do it.

BTW welcome to the forum, you will learn lots...


Jared

Originally Posted by 240Psycho

great you anul bastards scared another guy off

I'm disappointed; and I feel cheated. If you want to call me a name, and want me to feel bad, then please get the spelling correct.

I'm sorry: I really wanted to enjoy the moment of your calling me a bad name, but I felt like something was missing...it lacked something....no pizzazz.

Then it hit me: you misspelled the bad name. Don't you realize just how much that spoiled the moment? Not spelling it correctly just takes SO MUCH away from it.

[it is a-n-a-l......not a-n-u-l...]

Please....next time, try to get it right. We will both enjoy the moment so much more if you do.

Thank you.

TF

[AJS]

Best way to know if this is going to help you car is to buy a multimeter and check to see if there is a grounding problem. If there is then clean the contact points or replace the factory wires that have started to fail. Still not fixed? THEN build your grounding kit.
IF a car has insufficent grounding then you might find a detectable increase in "power" by grounding. Since "we" don't genrally have that issue I have a hard time believing that grounding a properly gounded Volvo will make any detectable difference. I would also think that few drivers can detect any change under 5% (which is what were talking about). There are alot of feel good mods out there. Alot of ppl think caps increase stereo output, electric "turbos" increase HP and super lubes give more power. Ricers have a reputation for buying fashion not usefull products. I've had alot of ppl swear this or that mod give XX increase in power yet if/when a product is tested it's found not to be the case. Then we see denial. This also happens with some of the aftermarket product suppliers. Electric water pumps are a good example.
If you ground your Volvo and find it make an improvement then you probably had a grounding issue and you've fixed it. Great Just don't assume volvo's have a problem because other makes do. We have our own issue to deal with

[V8BRICK]

To make sure you get that 7hp increase on the dyno, throw a bag of ice on the intake while you're swapping out those ground wires ;)

[Fuse]

And btw dynos are not so accurate. 7hp gain or loss is well within the margin of error. Temperatures etc... will affect to the final result also so I wouldn't put much weight on that. Of course it is good to keep your wiring in good condition. I myself have replaced all corroded wires and plugs. Looks better and I don't like when things are half done. :P

[volvo9]

Originally Posted by V8BRICK

To make sure you get that 7hp increase on the dyno, throw a bag of ice on the intake while you're swapping out those ground wires ;)

Will that make VTEC engage sooner?

[JohnMc]

Originally Posted by AJS

Best way to know if this is going to help you car is to buy a multimeter and check to see if there is a grounding problem.

Exactly. Start 'er up and check for *any* current flow from the motor to the carr body. I can't imagine there will be any measurable flow due to

PS - My own (non Volvo!?!) grounding story: In the summer of 1999 some dimwitted beeeeeyotch pulled a right-on-red *right* in front of me, sailing through a green light at the speed limit. Well maybe +5? In any case ABS buzzed, she didn't scoot, I didn't have enough room and whump, the soft nose hit her Grand Cherokee's rear bumper. Some $4k in repairs ensued. About a year later the new radiator sprang a leak. Weird! I tried some leak stop stuff but it just got worse. So I took it out and took it to a radiator repair shop to get it fixed. They said it looked like electrogalvanic corrosion, warned me to get that squared away before just driving around again, and charged me $60 for an epoxy repair. Back home I carefully reinstalled everything and when I started it up I stuck a multimeter on the radiator. nothing. Then I switched on the AC (which turned on the fans) and checked it again. !! Pretty hefty current potential! I never did find a loose or missing ground wire, otherwise I would have reamed the body shop. But for some reason the motor was now grounding to the radiator. And it, being mounted on rubber bushings, was then grounding through the coolant to the engine block. This had the effect of reverse electorplating the aluminum from the radiator and (possibly) plating it inside the engine. Eventually it removed enough metal and ate through the rad.