T5 swap, all you need to know

[linuxman51]

maybe, but you're still going to need an adapter plate so that adds further to the length, and then you might run into issues with the shifter location. definitly be interesting to look in to tho, would certainly make fwd swaps into rwd cars a bit more do able

[n xntrx volvo]

[quote:897df23b12]That sucks, since the position of the shifter fore and aft is much nicer for a 7/9 series. Perhaps with the right mounts, the tail position would be ok, even with a 2pc driveshaft (it must work on the camaro (though with a 1pc), eh?)
[/quote:897df23b12]
the camaro is meant to have the ****er angled towards the driver, so to get it pointed straight up again, requires tilting the trans. imagine taking your trans and tilting it 30 deg to fit a camaro, and what that would do. it can be done, just more work than its worth. the mount would be diff than anybody elses, but i guess you could bend it use a really long bolt, and a s$#t load of washers. but the offset of the tailhousing would mean being very very carefull about pinion angles, since not only does it have to "bend" down more than a two piece, but also to the side more
as for the adapter, what i was refering to was before the belhousing, between the eng & bell, not bell and trans like this

to go from whiteblock bell bolt pattern, to gm bell bolt pattern.

[Hank Scorpio]

already talked about this... do a search. Already decided the best way do a whiteblock in the states is make a "automatic" type adapter (between the block and bellhousing) on a domestic trans'.

Theres aplace in sweden who does make redblock -> gm trans adapters.

search please.

my driveshaft does nothing wierd at 120+, so Im not going to change it.

[stick940T]

Doug, sorry about that. It was late at night, and I found the other thread after I posted here. However, I do have in-thread stuff about longer T5s for 7/9 cars.

I've been trying to find a solution for a 7/9 series that does not require _any_ cutting around the shifter hole or a bent set back (very far) shifter.

On the camaro T5, I think the situation is that the bellhousing for a camaro t5 rotates it 17 deg toward the driver. The shifter is thus rotated 17 deg. It sounds like GM set up the mounts on the bottom of the extension housing (or tail housing) to be parallel to the ground, so they are 17 deg off from where they would be on a mustang t5. (please, correct me if any of this is wrong)

So, I think what this means is that you could use the same adapter plate as you would for a mustang, and have a straight up shifter, but you would have to fabricate or modify the crossmember differently. I would expect the output shaft to be in line with the crank, because the input and output shafts should be in line, even in the camaro. the driveshaft would also be a different length, but this doesn't matter for us.

What I'm trying to say is, that the only important difference on a camaro T5 is the mounting to the crossmember, which shouldn't be that hard to fab. Am I nuts?

Also, the input shaft length on a '96 camaro v6 t5 is within half a millimeter of the -93 mustang. Decent ratios are another matter.

Another possibility is the t5 from a 280ZX turbo. these were in 82-83 at least, and they have the shifter in roughly the same place as a camaro, but they are NWC, with 260lb-ft torque rating. Honestly, though, I don't think one would bust open right at 260! they also have nice ratios, _really_ similar to an M90:

http://www.geocities.com/zgarage2001/borg.html

I do not believe these transmissions have any goofy tilt stuff going on like the camaro, but I don't know for sure. However, according to that same page, the input shaft length is different from camaro or mustang T5s. Thus, the input shaft would have to be swapped from some NWC with a 7.18" length.

for a world class setup, one might be able to use a 280ZX tail housing (NWC/WC tail housings interchange) but you would have to use an output shaft from a WC to get the right length. I don't know if the 280ZX and camaro output shafts are the same length, although they ought to be pretty close, by the eyeball. According to this page (under "shifter position"), the 5th gear assembly has to be swapped over as well.

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Tr...nsmission.html

Worth it? I'm not sure. Unless people, er, "change" my perspective :slap: , I would be tempted to either fab a crossmember for a camaro unit or swap the input shaft on a 280Z unit (having a rebuild done at the same time) and just _see_ if I ever break a NWC.

For those of us with "millions" of horsepower in 7/9s , here's a picture of a Tremec TKO2 (on a Z T5 BH, BTW) with a modified shifter position (if you look closely you can see the box where the shifter normally sits) next to a normal NWC 280ZX T5. Maybe you could do a shifter position mod like that on a ford t5 and skip all the rest of this business. I have an email in to the guy with the TKO2 in the Z to see what that shifter setup is.



hmm, I'm sure I got something wrong, but did I provoke some thoughts?

Andy

[linuxman51]

280's had t5 transmissions in them?

(nissan 280 Z that is)

[stick940T]

yep, from drivetrain.com:

Nissan 280ZX with Turbo 1982-83
Nissan 300ZX with Turbo 1984-86

<edit>
of course the 300ZX here is the old one, not TT

looks like the 280ZX trans is the one with ratios very close to an M90. The 300ZX has a first gear similar to a mustang, but it still has an OD gear that is reasonable for our 4-cyl turbo cars (.75 vs .63 5th on the mustang, which is IMO too high of a gear for us). Basically, 300ZX trans is probably OK too. Torque rating on both of these is 260lb-ft, _I think_ (I claimed this in my previous post)

more details on the ratios here:

http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/GearRatios.html

However, the high 5th can be swapped on a mustang with a gear from another T5WC, for example a Camaro V6, of course you are basically in for a rebuild at that point.

I would imagine that the dimensions on these two ZX trans are the same, like length and shifter position, but I really have no hard data.

Stick Turbo ZXes in this year range might also be pretty rare.
</edit>

Andy

[linuxman51]

!!!!!! whats the holding capacity on em? **** i know where i can get one for like 100 bucks!

[Captain Bondo]

Kenny,
He mentioned they are 230-260 I think.

I'm wondering what the real story is on the T5. Are they just going to become the new m46? Can be be beefed or is it the same thing with the case deformation? I'm going to have to put something behind my new motor but I'm not interested in needing a new tranny every few months.

I'm guessing the getrag is tougher? This is the toughest choice of my whole project right now.

[stick940T]

Kenny, I'm sure this could be debated quite a bit, but here is my assessment:

I believe that M90, WC T5, and Getrag are all roughly the same strength. I'm sure I'll get arguments, but that's my position. T5 gets a bad rep because it's behind V8s all the time, M90 gets a good rep because it's behind 4 cyls all the time. M90 is hard to get, Getrag is expensive to repair. so T5 looks appealing since it's easier to find and repair.

I would say for a 240, use a mustang WC T5 if you're not going to make much more than 300lb-ft, and use a Tremec 3550 set up for a mustang if you're planning on manking between 300 and 350-375lb-ft, which is what they are rated for. 3550 should be more expensive to buy than a T5, but not really any harder to put in. However, if you are really making that much torque, it should be easily justifiable. also, there is a TKO version of the 3550 that is even stronger, but you'd have to have a pretty killer setup to need it behind a 2.3 (or 2.5) turbo four.

As far as weights, T5 WC weighs ~75lb, 3550 weighs around 110, so they are not that heavy.

Andy

[stick940T]

here's a picture of a camaro T5 mounted straight-up under a FC RX-7 (FC=2nd Gen).



seems to me we 7/9ers could use this trans under our cars with creative crossmember fabrication, as I mentioned previously. Again, input shaft length is basically the same between a mustang T5 and a ~1996 camaro V6 T5 (which is also world class so it has essentially the same torque spec)

Andy

[Hank Scorpio]

Andy that wasn't meant at you, great info.

Kenny, what do you think would be cheaper to upgrade? A ford T5 that came in god knows how many cars or anything that came in a Bimmer.

I beat the living **** out of mine, 6k clutch drops, power shifts through all 5 gears and I haven't heard a complaint out of it.

[linuxman51]

Originally Posted by Green Death

Kenny,
He mentioned they are 230-260 I think.

I'm wondering what the real story is on the T5. Are they just going to become the new m46? Can be be beefed or is it the same thing with the case deformation? I'm going to have to put something behind my new motor but I'm not interested in needing a new tranny every few months.

I'm guessing the getrag is tougher? This is the toughest choice of my whole project right now.

yea it was late, i skimmed over that part. If thats true then theres little point in my swapping that in as i'm already making 30 ft/lbs more than what they're rated at. The flip side to this is that ive heard tell of 400hp zcars rolling on the stock tranny, and thats gonna hafta be making big torque numbers (inline 6, 2.8L). i think i'll be calling around on this, i miss the manual and i dont really believe that this transmission is going to be as weak as an m46. I'll certainly ask first in the z circles tho, find out what they do

[stick940T]

I think you're right that they can take more than they are rated for. the guy at this site put over 400lb-ft to the dyno though a stock NWC T5:

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/280zxt/page19.html

I have no doubt that the WC is a better trans, but the ratios are attractive on the Z. I think the main thing that would keep me away from using one of these is I think you would have to take it apart to put in a different input shaft, and at that point, you might as well be customizing ratios on a camaro T5 WC. If anyone can find out for sure what the input shaft length is on these, that would help, I just have a claim from some guy's page that they are totally different than v8 T5s.

Does anybody know what the stock rearend ratio on a 940T with an M90 was? It might be 3.54, but I really don't know for sure.

On the camaro front, I have been unable to find out whether v8 3rdgen f-body T5s and 3rd and 4th gen v6 f-body t5s have the same input shafts, or not, I would like to know, but all I know is that the input shaft length on the 1996 v6 T5 is good, although the ratios kind of suck, with a low first and high fifth.

My goal here is to find a T5 (preferably WC) with decent ratios that will drop into a 7/9 with the shifter in a nice place, even if a tricked-out crossmember is required. I'm looking for a 1st comparable to the m90 setup (~3.50), and a top gear around .80, but of course if both ratios were higher gears you might be ok because you could change the rearend ratio.

here are some sources for T5 ratios:
http://media.gmcanada.com/division/c...996Camaro.html
(at the bottom)

This info (v6 5-spd) is for all 96-02.

here are some ratios for 89-92:
http://www.thirdgenresource.com/tran...s_information/

So I'm missing 93-95, and if there were any camaro WC T5 before 89.

Alternatively, you could build a hybrid trans, using a Mustang center section and camaro tailhousing. if you got a camaro WC from a v6, one of them has a .76 fifth, so you could drop that output shaft and 5th into a mustang trans (ditching the .63), with the longer tailhousing. I doubt this would be much cheaper than rebuilding the whole trans, so I'd probably do that. 'course you'd have to buy 2 trannys, but they would be junkyard T5s.

Andy

[dbarton]

Question about how far in does the tailshaft flange go.....

Ok... I bought a new spicer tailshaft flange and it came today. Now I'm wondering how far the flange needs to be inserted into the tailshaft. I'll need to know to set up my driveshaft length. Have a look at the attached pics... you'll see a slight step on the shaft. Does the flange go in past that step?

Pic #1 flange part way in


Pic #2 flange all the way in


Pic #3 close-up of step on the shaft


Thanks,
Dave B.

[Hank Scorpio]

Dave, mine is about split between those pictures (probably to about the ridge).

Call a driveshaft shop (the one you want to use) and have them fax you a form with the measurements they need, they'll take care of the rest. (its ussualy tip of output shaft to tip of rear axle/whatever)

[n xntrx volvo]

yes for auto's its been touched on. but adapter for man? no. only option listed during search was m90 or nothing (too much $$$ can change anything though). with a adapter plate like i posted, fab'd to go from whiteblock block to gm or ford bellhousing, to go to a t5 or other resonable trans? thats why i'm asking in a t5 posting. also there's a big diff between 120+ and 158mph, but if you ever get there (which will be fairly soon, the way you build), upgrade. on the v6 t5 its only rated at 210 ft lbs. for those determined to use the gm t5, you can conv the t/o to hyd easily by using a 84-88 corvette sys., it will solve any clearance issues, and is decent $ wise used.

[Kakkarotttto]

Originally Posted by stick940T

yep, from drivetrain.com:

Nissan 280ZX with Turbo 1982-83
Nissan 300ZX with Turbo 1984-86

Weren't all the turbo 280ZX cars automatics? i could have swore they were. the only 5spd i know are in the N/A models/ I know the 300ZX cars came with 5 speeds but the 280's didnt

[stick940T]

They may have been rare, but they existed, both 280zx turbo and 300zx turbo in manual trans.

[Hank Scorpio]

We talked (probably on the old board) about importing just m90 bellhousings. Found out they are 1 pc, ruled that the only cheap way to do a whiteblock trans is an automatic style adapter.

[linuxman51]

So i'm curious... its been stated that the input shaft on the Z t5 would have to be changed.. why is this? is it a length issue or a size issue (too big/too small)?

[Kakkarotttto]

IF you guys need some measurements my buddy has a Z T5 sitting at his house i can go look at anytime i want to (bought 2 cars for $850, blew tail shaft on 1 tranny already).

[stick940T]

Kenny (linuxman),

all I have on the input shaft for the Z is from this page:

http://www.geocities.com/zgarage2001/borg.html

the guy says:

[quote:bf19bba0a6]
BTW, I've compared the front input shafts, and I don't see any way to mate this with a Chevy or Ford V8. The input shaft is a different length, has a different pilot diameter, and a different number of splines for the clutch. In other words, nothing will transfer between the two. In addition, you would also need to buy an expensive new V8 bellhousing, so I wouldn't even try. So do yourself a favor and buy the proper T5 if you want to do a V8 conversion [on a 240z].
[/quote:bf19bba0a6]

I have no hard data (measurements would be very nice) but this guy has no reason to make this stuff up. Workaround might be possible, but I have no idea how hard.

I also want to correct something I said before :slap: , which is that the world class t5 in a late camaro v6 has "essentially the same torque spec" as a mustang v8 t5 because they're both WC. This is not true, but it's for a reason that I don't care that much about ...

The real story is that the camaro v6 WC is not as strong, but it's because it has a lower first gear (higher numerically). in fact, the camaro v6 t5s have first gears in the 3.7-4.0 range, which is too low in my opinion, considering their 5th gears are .76 and .73 (I think) respectively.

Until somebody corrects me, I believe that the nicest (with regard to the center console and tunnel) setup for a 7/9 would be a mustang T5 with camaro v6 WC tail housing, output shaft, and 5th gear. this would make a trans with very nicely spaced ratios (adjust final if nec), and the shifter in the right place. it would, however, require a different type of crossmember than a swap with the mustang tailhousing would. The camaro 5th gear should not affect the torque spec.

this site is also very interesting with regard to T5 swaps:

http://garage-scene.home.att.net/t5_install.htm

[Mach375]

Sorry to get off the conversation here, but since this is the T5 thread, and I have a small update on it.....

For fitting the Ford T5 into the 700s, the mount is ultra-simple, as is the stick repositioning.
I used a piece of 3/8" thick CR steel bar to move the shifter back 5 inches--drilled four holes, two on each end. Very simple.
For the mount, I dug around the local Kragen's back shelves until I found a transmission mount that I thought I could adapt. Of the three possible mounts I picked out, I decided on Anchor part number 2220. It has a single bolt at the base, with rubber seperating the two bolt holes at the top, and an equivelent angle to our Volvo crossmember (if that makes sense to you ). The only other part I needed was a piece of 6"x4"x1" T6 aluminum (I'm not entirely sure on the 6"x4" measurement, I'm going off a terrible memory here), with four holes drilled. Two of the holes line up with the mount, and the other two line up with the transmission. Perfect installation!!

So I now have the T5 bolted and mounted in my '86 744ti. Ready to go. Just have to find a shifter boot, and clutch fork boot.

[linuxman51]

pics you tease

[Hank Scorpio]

Awsome bud!!!

I think the easiest way to make the mount for a 240 work is weld a plate (like I did) but to the bottom of the crossmember, then drill two holes in it and you can use the rubber mount. Should be a piece of cake!

Alright Shane!!!