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Old 06-04-2005, 12:39 PM   #26
Captain Bondo
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If you do 180km/hr-30km/hr more than about 3 times in a row, metalmasters are toast. That's on level ground. never mind down hill.
Call whatever bs you want I guess. Anyone who wants to get in my car and come try it is welcome.
This is new calipers all around, new brembo/KVR drilled and slotted rotors, new DOT4, braided lines, everything is new, no screwing around. My car probably weights 3200lbs though. We go through this about once a month.

The 142 that was a dedicated track car had only 164 front brakes and 240 rear calipers and you'd have bruises from the shoulder harnesses and the brakes never died on that thing. It was light though.

The R upgrade is so cheap that when my current brakes die I probably won't even bother replacing it with stock stuff.
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Old 06-04-2005, 01:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedium
Axxis is soooooo not OEM for Volvo!

Well, not directly.

Axxis is the budget brand made in Australia by FMP (Friction Materials Pacific). Axxis used to be labelled Repco (in Australia at least), under a licensing agreement.

If you're out-driving Axxis Deluxe pads, congratulations, you're probably driving quicker than my grandmother. It doesn't take much to fade them off.

If you're out-driving MetalMasters, I call bullsh!t.

If you're still out-driving Metals, "just turn the boost down and drive live a civilized human"

Seriously, plenty of people find Metals (from either PBR or Axxis boxes - it's only the noise fixes that are different ) adequate as a general road-track pad. Like, serious glowing-rotor track work. It's not a Nascar race-specific material, but it's pretty robust.

.
Thanks Tim for the details of who owns who, I have always found the inner workings of the supply chain very interesting, especially in light of how obstinately insistant so many people get about particular products which they may like, but which they then INSIST on telling you (I build performance cars and supply lots of products intended for real HARD usage) the "fact of the matter is......" about why this sparkie plug or that gear oil made their car into a rocket.

However, you may as well call bull**** but I look at the Axxis or old Repco Metalmasters as just >>OK<< for street driving.
A absolute minimum.
I managed to CATCH THEM ON FIRE in approximately 12km
on a stage when I had delivery problems from both UK (Lazy sods) and Sweden (lazy flakey sods) for my beloved Ferodo, and back up Mintex
From new to nothing >metal to metal in about 350km of which 200km were SS.
Discs about the same size as Volvo 240, and car was about 700-800 lbs lighter, and no namby pamby fancy schmanzty Left Foot Braking.
Speed range between 50-165km/hr
I would not reccomend them for "vigourous' driving in a beast the weight of the Ovlov.
If he wants to keep 15" wheels and is unwilling to consider the really simple 740 big disc/ Mazdog caliper thing I slaved and worked for maybe 3 or maybe 4 minutes inventing (and half of that was explaining to Kevin H who was shall we say "gobsmacked" yeah why don't we say it? yeah "Gobsmacked that the whole thing was that easy.
Junkyard rotors, junkyard Mazdog calipers and presto, much more swept area, much more pad area, and more piston area.

The Nissan Sumitomos are a LOT bigger calipers and i don't see sNissan 300ZX things laying around in 'better junkyard near you' like i do the second gen Maz-dog calipers.
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Old 06-04-2005, 07:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator
However, you may as well call bull**** but I look at the Axxis or old Repco Metalmasters as just >>OK<< for street driving.
A absolute minimum.
I managed to CATCH THEM ON FIRE in approximately 12km
bull****.
A sure sign of not breaking the pads in.
I'm sure you're faster than I am, but every #$@ing newb knows to bake out the pads when they're new.
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Old 06-04-2005, 09:17 PM   #29
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Could someone lay out the details of the mazda rotor, caliper upgrade? Don't like junkyard? Well new parts can be had for older cars cheaper than retail new R parts.
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Old 06-04-2005, 09:43 PM   #30
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tedium, Thank you for the explanations. As you can find the time, further information on the differences in pad materials would be appreciated. I can and do read the hype put out by padmakers; and too often the BS is just TOO deep to bother trying to wade through.

I have used the MetalMasters for years. They have served well. I would like to know more about the similarities and differences between the Axxis and PBR products: I use both.

I have seen people ruin a completely fresh and new brake job in 10 miles. I chalk it up to the fact that a whole lot of people have a natural born ability to FUBAR bowling balls....without trying. [usually the same ones who can only screw up wet dreams].

On the other hand, there are SO MANY ways to screw up a brake job before the car is even driven down the street that it is amazing that more people don't kill themselves off because of the stupid stunts they pull, or shortcuts they take, when servicing the brake system. But that is a different subject.

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Old 06-04-2005, 10:06 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peehound
bull****.
A sure sign of not breaking the pads in.
I'm sure you're faster than I am, but every #$@ing newb knows to bake out the pads when they're new.
Gee Peehound, you make a couple of huge assumptions.
Since I had been racing alrady for around 20 years when I was at the event in Pincher Creek, Alberta (Rocky Mountain Rally, CASC Canadian Championship Round May 1987) I was very aware of break-in procedures or new pads, new rotors and for that matter new clutches and disc etc.

I did mention that my favorite Ferodos (DS11) and second choice Mintex (M171) had been ordered from 3 different sources in hopes that the lazy flake monsters MIGHT possibly be able to amble over to the shelf 5 feet away and put a couple of sets in a box and scribble an address on them, but it seems that that was too much effort for the 2 shops in the UK and the one in Sweden.

So that left now choice but the allegedly fantastic "Metalmasters".
Now most people know that as these are popular consumer products sold over the counter that like all other "road" pads they are intended to work properly from dead cold, first time, and with no special break in procedures specified.
Now anytime I throw in new pads on used rotors I first lightly 220 paper off the discs to deglaze and clean them, the binding agents do tend top deposit some crap. Then I'm always a nice guy to the brakes till I am certain they have good conformity.

You see I am a real fan of good brakes, a lesson which was driven into my head for years by geting blown by entering turns by dozens of Swedish 250 and 500 experts in several years of racing motocross.
And WHEN I did finally master braking (and the obsessive cleaning and lubing and filing and de-burring of brake cams and custom fabbing anchors for the big nasty Suzuki brake cable (about like a fawkin parking brake cable compared to the weenie ass junk on the Husqvarnas which is like a bicycle brake cable!) and lever I adapted)
I was able to brake as good as any person in the whole fawking world, I lived in the town with numerous times National Champion and several times 2nd in the 250 World Championship Torlief Hansen and I could sometimes even outbrake him, sometimes.

So kid, I know brakes and how to set the up and how to use them.

Catching them ON FIRE is a sure sign that they are miserable pieces of Ka-Ka suitable for moderate use on the street only.

By the way, the result was 7th overall in a 1969 Saab V4 that we drove the 740 miles to the event, and then vacationed for a week in the Canajian Rockies before driving back to Seattle (on a used set with about 1/5 life left of Ferodo DS11s)

You don't catch your "Metal masters" or whatever they're called now on fire??

You ain't trying very hard then.
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Old 06-04-2005, 10:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmacq
Could someone lay out the details of the mazda rotor, caliper upgrade? Don't like junkyard? Well new parts can be had for older cars cheaper than retail new R parts.
Dave, get the biggest 740 turbo rotor there is (hell I don't know YEARS, I know parts, I am a Saab and Furrin Ford guy afterall!!), and sling it onto the 240 hub.
Then grab the 5 bolt 2nd Gen RX7 calipers you picked up at the scrappy for $15 each (and don't snivel to me about you don't like 'used' stuff! Your stinkin' cast iron scrap gawd I'm going get a hernia liftin' them Volvo calipers are used aren't they?
And even if they were new yesterday,they're used TODAY!!
and bolt the nice little adaptor thingie on to the caliper and then mount the whole assembly onto the knuckle like normal.

The maz-dog caliper has M10 x 1 bubble flare so I always snip off a hunk of the hard line so I can make a transition somewhere easy.
Look here's a piccie or 3 I took since Kevvies telephone was spassing out.




The best of course id to make some nice hoses yourself thinking always about routing and movement.
Use "reusable" ends so you can replace the hose part down the road for like 5 bucks.
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Old 06-04-2005, 10:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator
Now most people know that as these are popular consumer products sold over the counter that like all other "road" pads they are intended to work properly from dead cold, first time, and with no special break in procedures specified.
I hope that was irony, cause if it's not that's a lot more funny than it should be, and potentially embarrassing.

As for setting fire to metal masters, and getting 350km from them, I would also have to either call bull on that, or think someone sold you stock pads in a semi metallic box.
If it is true, you could quite possibly be guilty of some of the worst brake abuse in the world.

Although you did say you were motocross, so that explains a lot, seeing as how I grew up in the industry...
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Old 06-04-2005, 11:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator
Gee Peehound, you make a couple of huge assumptions.
You see I am a real fan of good brakes, a lesson which was driven into my head for years by geting blown by entering turns by dozens of Swedish 250 and 500 experts in several years of racing motocross.
Duuude; All that JUNK won't come up to a CZ braking system. Sorry about the amateur class.
BTW, I'm 59, but I gotta go to the track, so I'll see ya in a couple of days.
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Old 06-04-2005, 11:58 PM   #35
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tedium.....Tim, I just found your post in the 'various brake q's' thread. So if you don't feel like repeating yourself, I will totally understand. I do find your observations corroborative. I have had to deal with some of the problems you mentioned re drilled/slotted rotors. Thanks again.

peehound, I had thought that I was about the oldest old guy around here. You got me by a few yrs. Cool. Enjoy your weekend.

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Old 06-05-2005, 12:05 AM   #36
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We used DS11 pads on the road race cars, pretty decent stuff.

I never set fire to any pads, not that I observed, anyway. But I drove so hard on a set of metal pads(I forget which brand) on the street that I lost any semblance of stopping power. I assume the fluid boiled, but they stunk up the county and lasted another week, for a total of maybe 1 months use. I sure did drive stoopid for a long time. Still can, if I feel like it.
So I will add my name to the list of morons who have destroyed perfectly good pads.

*technical justifier for going OT line:
If you need a bubble flare but only own a double flare kit, just do the first step with the little round thingy, and don't do the second step with the pointy thingy. Works great.

Party on.
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Old 06-05-2005, 12:23 AM   #37
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DS11's are what that very same 140 got. Did you ever race in any of the Vancouver-area race back then? '87? You MUST have crossed paths with our 140 at some point. It was at Westwood all the time in those days.

Can you still get DS11's, last I looked I couldn't find them locally. I have metal-bastards (as I fondly call them, which is a bit of a vanlandinghamism in and of itself I've begun to realize) and I can't stand them. At least deluxe have some grip before they fly the white flag.
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Old 06-05-2005, 01:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bondo
DS11's are what that very same 140 got. Did you ever race in any of the Vancouver-area race back then? '87? You MUST have crossed paths with our 140 at some point. It was at Westwood all the time in those days.

Can you still get DS11's, last I looked I couldn't find them locally. I have metal-bastards (as I fondly call them, which is a bit of a vanlandinghamism in and of itself I've begun to realize) and I can't stand them. At least deluxe have some grip before they fly the white flag.
The first time in my life that I was ever AT an asphalt venue was sometime in the mid 80s just after breaking my tibia in three places when three friends abducted me and forced me to go up Westwood and all I can say is thank Gaaaaawd for the meds and the beer cause I was bored sensless.
The first time i was ever ON an asphalt track was just last year at a Invatational "Tuner's Day" at the really impressive Zhuhai International Circuit in Guangdong Province, just on the other side of the Pearl River Delta from where Hong Kong sits, about 45 minutes by fast ferry.
I may be pretty shockingly quick on gravel, especially for those who have ridden and know how much goofing off and joking and playing I do (really, remember what I say: all cars are junk, that can even do SECOND gear wheelies, much less easy third gear wheelies while doing nice slides THEREFORE they're junk. And so we can just get on with playing with them and having fun!!)
but lord have mercy I was useless on asphalt, regardless that I was in a stock Citroen CX 1,6 with stock suspenders (Frenchies DO make some damn good stock suspenders!) and only OK tires (what the puck the tires are better than my daily driver Xratty!).
I can see why asphalt guys obsess so much about tires.

Anyway, I have heard from contacts in Sweden that there was a return of DS11 which I always loved for its long life, excellent stopping power even when the rotors were kinda orangish, and their kindness to discs.

In case some of you cars only guys don't know it, Rally on loose surfaces IS THE HARDEST braking enviroment for cars at least according to the manufacturer AP Racing. (what do they know?)
With the short gearing typically used trading lowish top speeds of around 110-115mph for quicker AXcelleration we do get going up to speed pretty often, but with the low cornering speeds, often around barely 30 mph, we have to haul it down OFTEN and there's not so much cooling going on at the AVERAGE speeds we do.
By the way 105 mph with trees 2-4 feet away SEEMS pretty damn fast, all you drag racing weenies should try it, WAAAAY more intense.

Keeps one awake in their OLD AGE.
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Old 06-05-2005, 03:28 AM   #39
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Agreed it ain't much. Just figured if you'd ever seen the 140 it'd be there since it was the most steadily open place for test 'n' tune. There were a few hillclimbs around (like squamish and whistler I think and they still have one in Kelowna) back then that were sortof interesting but otherwise it pretty much sucks here. Worst of it is that everything is soo far away because the yuppies can't deal with the noise. But unless you were actually watching for it, it was really just a plain white 142 with a cage- it was spectacularly loud though. We got lots of comments from the yokels about "wut the heack kinna Datsun fav-taen iddat son?"

John L has mentioned the Porterfields a few times (RS-4?). Know anything about them Tedium or John? Sound like the "closest thing" to DS11's around. I was bitter when I bought all my brakes and then had to get the M&M's.

If that mazda setup clears 16" or even 15 wheels that is great. The R stuff is a nice deal but being stuck with only SOME 17" rims working is weak. 17" is too expensive to destroy in the way I intend to destroy rubber.
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Old 06-05-2005, 04:23 AM   #40
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Yeah, the Mazda setup works with 15's, but only SOME 15's. Actually, I think it's because of the slightly shallower hat on the 740 rotors. I have a "veritable plethora" of 15" wheels, although I haven't tried to figure out how to make them ALL fit. I can say that the MSW repros of the factory 15x7's (they have different offset than the factory 15x7's) work with a 1/8" spacer, and my 15x6 Pirelli wheels clear without a spacer. Haven't done the homework for the 240 Turbo wheels. Main issue is the outboard side of the caliper rubbing on the wheel spokes.
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Old 06-05-2005, 05:40 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep
But I drove so hard on a set of metal pads(I forget which brand) on the street that I lost any semblance of stopping power. I assume the fluid boiled
Easy way to tell the difference:

If your pads are faded, the pedal is hard.
If your fluid or lines are at fault, the pedal is soft.

When a pad gets too hot, the friction coefficient drops. That means, you get less braking force for a given applied force - like trying to stop a spinning rotor by pushing a bar of soap against it. You can squeeze as hard as you like.

When fluid boils, it's like having air in your lines. What used to be a rigid hydraulic connection between the pedal (master cylinder) and caliper (slave cylinder) now has compressible gas in it. You push the pedal, the gas compresses, SFA happens at the caliper. Pedal to floor.

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Old 06-05-2005, 06:03 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator
Gee Peehound, you make a couple of huge assumptions.
Gee, John V, you also make a couple of huge assumptions. And we agree entirely on other things.

Quote:
Since I had been racing alrady for around 20 years when I was at the event in Pincher Creek, Alberta (Rocky Mountain Rally, CASC Canadian Championship Round May 1987) I was very aware of break-in procedures or new pads, new rotors and for that matter new clutches and disc etc.
1987?

As in, 18 years ago?

For starters, I have no knowledge about product lines from that long ago. But I do know that there used to be a material that was sold as Metal King in Australia, which was updated quite a few years ago by a material known as Metal King Plus.

Assuming there was a similar upgrade in the US range at the same time - whether they changed from Metal Master to MM-Plus (are PBR and Axxis metals actually labelled as MM-plus now?) or whether there was just a seamless change to what was packed in MM boxes...there's a very strong chance you're talking about a completely different material to what is currently available.


Quote:
So kid, I know brakes and how to set the up and how to use them.
No doubt. Sounds like you had quite a racing career.

Now, keep in mind what I said above about MM being a compromise material - not a serious race-day contendor.

I don't know anything about serious race materials - only OE and mainstream aftermarket materials. Sure, that includes the pads that are OE on various German sports cars, which have been known to see a few hot laps of The 'Ring on OE brakes, but for serious motorsport, you would throw away the pads I know about, and install something else.

I'm sure the official company line from Axxis, Repco, PBR, Bendix (or whatever label you get on your Metal Master pads) would be the same - they're not intended for motorsport.

Quote:
Catching them ON FIRE is a sure sign that they are miserable pieces of Ka-Ka suitable for moderate use on the street only.
No, catching them ON FIRE is a sure sign that they got really really incredibly hot.

I know with some certainty that most brake pads will catch fire when they get over about 750 degrees C. That's real degrees, not marketing deparment "maximum continuous working temperature" BS degrees. Make your own conversions if you don't do metric.

Brake temperature is a function of how much energy has been pumped into the brake system. I could spout BS about joules per kilogram-kelvin and specific heat, but I won't. Suffice to say, if you burnt your pads, they got way too hot. On a road car, that would indicate that the brake system has inadequate thermal capacity - the brakes are too damn small. On a track car...I don't know. I'd still say the brakes are too small.

Anyway, if you set fire to the pads, you were running brake temps of well over 750dgC. The rotors would have been glowing red-orange. If you still had any kind of friction from a set of road pads at that temperature...they were pretty robust pads.

Quote:
You don't catch your "Metal masters" or whatever they're called now on fire??

You ain't trying very hard then.
Metals are a heavy-duty road pad. Some people find them adequate for club-level track use. If you catch them on fire on a track, then it's time to start shopping for serious race pads.

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Old 06-05-2005, 06:28 AM   #43
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Took me all of 2 weeks and repeated stops from 120+ on the way to work to bend a set of new volvo disk's, ive got a set of black diamond combies (drilled and groved) sat downstairs and a set of BD pads as well, so we shall see if i bend those, this time ill bodge some air ducking to the brakes as well

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Old 06-05-2005, 08:12 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealthfti
tedium, Thank you for the explanations. As you can find the time, further information on the differences in pad materials would be appreciated. I can and do read the hype put out by padmakers; and too often the BS is just TOO deep to bother trying to wade through.
First, a disclaimer: I do not represent anybody but myself. Nothing I say is official or gospel. I could be making all of this up.

Okay?

I see in your later post that you found my earlier post on friction material types. For those that missed it or need a refresher, here's a summary of material styles:

NAO (Non-Asbestos Organic, aka Organic, Ceramic, Japanese-style): Low wear, low noise, low dust, long life, relatively low friction but very stable (which is one of the subtle things that make one material feel good and another feel bad, although a layperson won't be able to pick what it is). Great for general road use, not for high-temperature applications (or else they fade off, and wear rates go through the roof). Because they don't wear the rotor, NAOs develop DTV leading to shudder.

Low-met (aka low-steel, Ceramic (again), European-style): high wear, dusty, higher friction, better ability to handle high temperatures. Also very stable. European cars are required to meet brake test regulations with a failed booster, so high friction is necessary, and the car is designed around that. Cars designed around high friction feel ordinary with low friction.

Semi-met (aka American-style): Medium wear and dust, low-to-moderate friction. Not really stable, but will take a beating and keep bouncing back. I believe most American cars have started using NAOs, but pick-ups and SUVs still use semi-mets.

Now...manufacturer specific. A manufacturer that has been mentioned in this thread from time to time.

They have three individual NAO, two semi-met, and one low-met aftermarket material. There are a few small fiddles and tweaks to most of them, mostly cosmetic (so they look different enough to pass off as different materials).

As mentioned above, in NAO, there's The Good Stuff, The Cheap Stuff, and The Crap Stuff. Well, they're all quite good performers under normal driving conditions, so the names aren't really fair.

The Good Stuff is, for all intents, exactly the same as a very popular OE material. It's been on Australian and US vehicles. It is very good for DTV (ie takes a very long time), and, for a NAO, handles a bit of heat.
The Cheap Stuff is a distant relative of The Good Stuff. It's actually a little higher in friction, and is quite a sturdy performer across the board. But it has DTV problems. It used to have noise problems too, but that's been bred out of it now.
The Crap Stuff is pretty good for operating friction, DTV and noise, but really doesn't do well with heat. Fade city.

In Australia, Bendix Advance is mostly The Cheap Stuff, with a bit of The Good Stuff on high-volume late-model vehicles that had specific noise problems. The new Bendix General Ceramic (blah marketing terminology) is a mix of Cheap and Crap for different references. Lots of other brands and labels come from the same factory, and most of them are variations of The Crap Stuff.

I assumed PBR and Axxis Deluxe are Crap. They may be Cheap. They may be one of each.

I have Crap Stuff on the front of my wife's car, and it feels fantastic. It's not a performance car. The brakes don't get hot. If it ever started to fade, we'd slow down. It hasn't happened yet, because we just don't drive that car that way.

Semi-mets: Bendix Heavy Duty and the various Metal Masters are the same thing. It's a cosmetic tweak on the old Bendix Metal King Plus. A few references of Australian Heavy Duty have a different material that used to be sold here as Performax. I have HD on the front of my brick. It feels...yeah...okay...but I'm a brake nerd. It works, and I have no doubt that it will stop me under all circumstances I'll ever see on the road, and then some.

Low-mets: The Ultimate family is the only low-met made there. There are a few close relatives, some of which are put on local police cars from the factory. It's high in friction, agressive, fairly quick wearing, dusty, and oooooh so nice to drive. It's not a race material either. There are rumours that it leaves depositions all over rotors when it gets too hot (race situations). Still works though. These types of materials are made for emergency stops from Autobahn speeds. NAOs just don't cut the mustard in Europe.

There are many other low-met formulations out of Europe, from as many friction manufacturers as there are in Europe.

Given that Volvos came from the factory with a high-friction low-met, my recommendation is to use low-mets, and get used to buying new rotors every second pad change. For show cars (and why would anybody choose a Volvo for a show car?), NAOs will suffice, and will keep your wheels clean.

Signing off now before I let out any more secrets...

tim
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Old 06-05-2005, 08:26 AM   #45
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if nothing else works you should try these...


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Old 06-05-2005, 10:28 AM   #46
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I don't know when the change over from Metal King to Metal King Plus happened, but I do remember I had at least one car that was shod with the original Metal King pads (I found the old box in the back of a cupboard years ago), as did several of my fathers cars, cause it was on his recommendation that I got the pads originally.

About the only thing I remember that was different, was that the pads used to take a "lot" longer to warm up.

The only other thing I remember is that the original Metal Kings used to be a highly recommended club level racing pad, I even had various old car mags where every other car featured was running Metal King pads.

Maybe the US guys had something totally different back then???



Oh, and it was probally just marketing hype, but I'm sure that old box had like a temprature rating for the pads at something like 500C!
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Old 06-05-2005, 11:36 AM   #47
mAydAy
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Location: Concord, NC
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I've got VGX Metallics on the 850R. I didn't really expect to keep them for too long, but I've had them on there for a while and they've managed to hold up pretty well. I've got slotted/drilled rotors (yeah, yeah....eBay specials and they haven't cracked/warped and seem to work extremely well....) and I haven't gotten much fade from them ever no matter the push on them. Several 120-0 stops in a row and they just keep on biting, biting so hard I can't slam them all the way on. I have to be careful and try not to slam them too hard since it grips so hard it'll send anything and everything flying forward. It brakes disturbingly hard. Next set will probably be ceramics.

-Andy
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Old 06-05-2005, 11:53 AM   #48
ElPiloto
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The Mazda caliper looks nice. Where can the adapters be purchased? Or, since they look like they would be easy to fabricate, what about a template or drawings?

Thank you
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Old 06-05-2005, 12:23 PM   #49
mikep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedium
If your pads are faded, the pedal is hard.
If your fluid or lines are at fault, the pedal is soft.
You see, I already knew that back in 1980 or so but I was really drunk at the time, and I don't remember the details. Except I kept it out of the ditches, and it was dusk, so if the fronts were orange I probably couldn't tell anyway.

I am assuming they faded first, then the fluid boiled. That is what usually happens with stock crap when running the dirt and tar+chip roads of Delaware as fast as you can for hours at a time.
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Old 06-05-2005, 11:06 PM   #50
davidmacq
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Thanks for the pics of the mazda calipers. Didn't understand all the details, but it's worth a shot! So anyone remember what years second gen mazda's were? Guess I can google it up.
Actually I have 2 945's 91 and 94. Not sure which size rotors, but they are both ABS.

Did I mention used parts? Can't remember. I was saying the same as you. I'd much rather have used parts, or new parts for an older car. I was saying this in the thread about 900/700 series brake upgrade. Thread was talking 2000 dollars for an R brake upgrade!!!!!!

So you just buy brake pads for mazda of that year, etc, huh? Wonder how theyr'e pads available stack up? Looks like the caliper is similiar to what was on my old 240DL. Me and my dad did a brake job on it. Replaced the pads. It was fairly easy job.

So what are semi low metallic pads available? I was shopping on groton site looking at the pads. Would the Volvo OE be the low met pads?

I put Eikers on my 94. Not sure what pads it has, but it seems like there isn't enough friction. Takes more effort to stop the car, and wow, lots of dust. I guess they heavier wheels really heat up the pads more. The pads are gone, time for replacements!

Maybe Kevin will explain the details for idiots, lol. Then again maybe I can figure it out when I get the calipers. Otherwise no big deal to get brake man to throw them on I guess.
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