Need help with a project

Dauntless · 09-20-2005, 04:19 AM

OK, so before you all tell me to search, I already have, and while there's a lot of info about doing a +T on a B230F, there's not much to be said about going +T on a B23E.

I plan to use MS or some kind of EMS, etc. so that's not a problem.

Anyway, I just bought a 1982 244 with a B23E and only 63,000 miles on it. I did a compression test today and all cylinders show between 160 and 162 psi. Compression ratio is 10.0:1 and I am at 3300 ft above sea level if that makes a difference. Does that sound like a healthy engine?

So, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to +T this engine. As it has barely any miles on it, I don't want to rebuild it if I can help it.

How much boost could I run safely on stock internals? I am considering the use of water/alcohol injection as well, seems like a good idea. How much extra boost could I run with this installed?

Thanks

swedefiend · 09-20-2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dauntless

So, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to +T this engine. As it has barely any miles on it, I don't want to rebuild it if I can help it.

Then run about 5 PSI. If you don't care, shoot for the moon. I would say 10-15 would be well within the realm of feasability. Whether or not you have to rebuild now... That's another story.

Forg · 09-20-2005, 05:53 PM

It's not uberdifficult or uberexpensive to get hold of a 740T intercooler & fit it to a +T'd B23E ... that'd give you a handfull of extra PSI. You'd definitely have to be a bit careful, it doesn't seem abnormal for stock B23E's to want to ping even on LRP.

Canuckvolvo · 09-20-2005, 06:10 PM

I think that has alot to do with the 017 distributor which is quite aggressive down low. I can run regular gas with the B21FT dizzy at 12 degrees advance, but not with the B23E (017) dizzy at the stock 5 degrees advance.

As with any motor, but especially one with a high CR like the B23E, spark control will be a big part of the puzzle when looking at boost levels, H20/alky injection and octane requirements among other variables...

Oh, and that motor is barely broken in, I wouldn't even bother pulling the head!

Dauntless · 09-21-2005, 07:27 AM

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I am wondering what boost figure I could aim for, to see if it's even a good idea to try to +T it.... what's the most anyone has safely ran through a B23F+T in a daily driver?

Sp3aK · 09-21-2005, 08:02 AM

When I did mine, my father and I just kinda set the wastegate to whatever and viola, 10psi. Now my boost guage runs off the IC and that's after running through an IC from a 1985 760, so the actual PSI the turbo is pushing might be higher.

I also decided to f*** with my daily driver, which isn't smart if you want to get into a +T then screw around with MS, it can be a pain if it wants to be. A long story turned short is that I did my +T around x-mas/the first of this year, and drove it a bit then finally did MS in April. Beyond that I was having huge TPS issues that thus resulted in unreliable drivability for a long time. Turns out I had two signals and one ground going to the thing, and not 5v-signal-ground. Dumbass me. Last night the car ran SUPERB with a bit of tweaking in a couple areas and this morning it ran great as well.

Err anyways... back to topic a bit, depending on how brave you are is what you start at with boost

If you want to "stage" it then do something like 5-7psi first. Then move up to something like 10-13. Also if your gonna do it, do it all and do it right from the beginning. No PVC intercooler piping*cough*me*cough*, no haggard wiring for the MS and then not even having spark hooked up*cough*me*cough*, no Toyota TPS with a wood bracket and mechanics wire to hold it on*cough*me*cough*... mmmm... (-_-)

have fun though, all in all it's been a heck of a ride. And last time I dyno'd I had almost 80rwhp and 100rwtq gain from stock! I'm sure I'll be at 200 when I'm done.

Dauntless · 09-21-2005, 10:10 AM

OK, thanks a lot for that info mate

So it holds up to 13 psi without any dramas?

I plan to do it the right way the first time. I have 2 cars to drive until half way through next year, so that helps too

Canuckvolvo · 09-21-2005, 11:25 AM

Dauntless, the point I was trying to make, is that it all depends on how far you want to go. You could shoot for 20psi. With really well tuned EMS, alcohol injection, big turbo, etc, it would be possible. Of course at that point, you'd need a new tranny, but you get the idea. The other trade-off is without any knock sensing or other safe-guards, the motor would be extremely sensitive to any detonation.

With some form of EMS (including spark control!), lots of patience tuning, a stock T3 and intercooler, I would *guess* you could safely run upwards of ~10psi on pump gas. There are too many variables to say for sure, alot of them related to what lengths you're prepared to go to get there. Even at 10psi, you could be pushing the limits of your transmission anyway....

Dauntless · 09-21-2005, 07:49 PM

Trans is no problem, I have a Getrag M51 sitting here

And to help things along I was thinking of using EMS, a 60/63 turbo, a decent intercooler, and water/alcohol injection. Does 12 psi sound reasonable with that?

Forg · 09-21-2005, 11:36 PM

Gut-feel says you'll be borderline, but it should be possible. Current factory cars running 15psi+ are up close to 10:1, they've got better combustion-chambers & knock-control, but they're also not running water injection.

Dunno ... I'd probably make sure the timing's very conservative. Maybe have a look at DIY knock-sensor stuff, so you have instant notification if it does knock. B23E's are cheap, and a DIY engine-swap isn't terribly nasty, maybe try it with an older engine first? [Don't think I'd do that, but then I don't know if I'd try 12psi on a 70's 10:1 CR engine either

]

*edit*
Oh, BTW; where's the 60/63 turbo coming from? Is it a cheapie? Remember that we don't necessarily have the same cheapness of parts here as in North America where most contributors around here come from ... you might find a better alternative for the same price in Oz (&/or from Japan).

Dauntless · 09-22-2005, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forg

Oh, BTW; where's the 60/63 turbo coming from? Is it a cheapie? Remember that we don't necessarily have the same cheapness of parts here as in North America where most contributors around here come from ... you might find a better alternative for the same price in Oz (&/or from Japan).

I have been asking the US guys for one, I'm sure someone will come up with one soon.... otherwise I will just get a stock T3 turbo from a 740, seeing as 12 psi isn't even maxing out one of those.

Gabe244 · 02-02-2008, 03:00 AM

update anyone? i wanna do this too an im wondering how much it set you back.

Volvo244GLE · 02-02-2008, 08:30 PM

as far as i know dauntless's project has been shelved indefinately and didnt get off the ground. so no luck with an update.

Dauntless · 02-02-2008, 08:38 PM

I've decided not to +T my car.

benchricer · 02-04-2008, 02:43 AM

Good choice.

09-20-2005, 06:10 PM	#4
Canuckvolvo Drunk as **** Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: North 604...no 778	I think that has alot to do with the 017 distributor which is quite aggressive down low. I can run regular gas with the B21FT dizzy at 12 degrees advance, but not with the B23E (017) dizzy at the stock 5 degrees advance. As with any motor, but especially one with a high CR like the B23E, spark control will be a big part of the puzzle when looking at boost levels, H20/alky injection and octane requirements among other variables... Oh, and that motor is barely broken in, I wouldn't even bother pulling the head! __________________ 1995 945Ti, cushy winter ride aka Darth Wagon 2006 Suzuki GSF650 Bandit

09-21-2005, 08:02 AM	#6
Sp3aK Board Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Durham, NC	When I did mine, my father and I just kinda set the wastegate to whatever and viola, 10psi. Now my boost guage runs off the IC and that's after running through an IC from a 1985 760, so the actual PSI the turbo is pushing might be higher. I also decided to f*** with my daily driver, which isn't smart if you want to get into a +T then screw around with MS, it can be a pain if it wants to be. A long story turned short is that I did my +T around x-mas/the first of this year, and drove it a bit then finally did MS in April. Beyond that I was having huge TPS issues that thus resulted in unreliable drivability for a long time. Turns out I had two signals and one ground going to the thing, and not 5v-signal-ground. Dumbass me. Last night the car ran SUPERB with a bit of tweaking in a couple areas and this morning it ran great as well. Err anyways... back to topic a bit, depending on how brave you are is what you start at with boost If you want to "stage" it then do something like 5-7psi first. Then move up to something like 10-13. Also if your gonna do it, do it all and do it right from the beginning. No PVC intercooler pipingcoughmecough, no haggard wiring for the MS and then not even having spark hooked upcoughmecough, no Toyota TPS with a wood bracket and mechanics wire to hold it oncoughmecough... mmmm... (-_-) have fun though, all in all it's been a heck of a ride. And last time I dyno'd I had almost 80rwhp and 100rwtq gain from stock! I'm sure I'll be at 200 when I'm done. __________________ Volvo defector. Hate me I drive a Honda. 91 Volvo - Sold but not forgotten.

09-21-2005, 07:49 PM	#9
Dauntless No braptraps here. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NSW, Australia	Trans is no problem, I have a Getrag M51 sitting here And to help things along I was thinking of using EMS, a 60/63 turbo, a decent intercooler, and water/alcohol injection. Does 12 psi sound reasonable with that? Last edited by Dauntless; 09-21-2005 at 07:53 PM..

09-21-2005, 11:36 PM	#10
Forg Board Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Retirement Village, Sydney	Gut-feel says you'll be borderline, but it should be possible. Current factory cars running 15psi+ are up close to 10:1, they've got better combustion-chambers & knock-control, but they're also not running water injection. Dunno ... I'd probably make sure the timing's very conservative. Maybe have a look at DIY knock-sensor stuff, so you have instant notification if it does knock. B23E's are cheap, and a DIY engine-swap isn't terribly nasty, maybe try it with an older engine first? [Don't think I'd do that, but then I don't know if I'd try 12psi on a 70's 10:1 CR engine either ] edit Oh, BTW; where's the 60/63 turbo coming from? Is it a cheapie? Remember that we don't necessarily have the same cheapness of parts here as in North America where most contributors around here come from ... you might find a better alternative for the same price in Oz (&/or from Japan). Last edited by Forg; 09-21-2005 at 11:58 PM..

02-02-2008, 08:30 PM	#13
Volvo244GLE Board Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia	as far as i know dauntless's project has been shelved indefinately and didnt get off the ground. so no luck with an update. __________________ 244GLE Project - The fun daily driver. Rebuilt B23, ported 405, 37.5 exh. valves, BMW oil squirter's, MS2e, VX3 cam, King Springs, Bilstein HD's, upper+lower chassis braces, 26mm Falcon front sway bar, 21+19=24mm rear sway bar, SAAS bucket seats, hi flow rear muffler, almost every factory option. 164 Project - The impulse buy 242GT Project - who likes rust?

09-20-2005, 05:53 PM	#3
Forg Board Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Retirement Village, Sydney	It's not uberdifficult or uberexpensive to get hold of a 740T intercooler & fit it to a +T'd B23E ... that'd give you a handfull of extra PSI. You'd definitely have to be a bit careful, it doesn't seem abnormal for stock B23E's to want to ping even on LRP.

09-21-2005, 07:27 AM	#5
Dauntless No braptraps here. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NSW, Australia	Yeah that's what I was thinking. I am wondering what boost figure I could aim for, to see if it's even a good idea to try to +T it.... what's the most anyone has safely ran through a B23F+T in a daily driver?

09-21-2005, 10:10 AM	#7
Dauntless No braptraps here. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NSW, Australia	OK, thanks a lot for that info mate So it holds up to 13 psi without any dramas? I plan to do it the right way the first time. I have 2 cars to drive until half way through next year, so that helps too

09-21-2005, 11:25 AM	#8
Canuckvolvo Drunk as **** Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: North 604...no 778	Dauntless, the point I was trying to make, is that it all depends on how far you want to go. You could shoot for 20psi. With really well tuned EMS, alcohol injection, big turbo, etc, it would be possible. Of course at that point, you'd need a new tranny, but you get the idea. The other trade-off is without any knock sensing or other safe-guards, the motor would be extremely sensitive to any detonation. With some form of EMS (including spark control!), lots of patience tuning, a stock T3 and intercooler, I would guess you could safely run upwards of ~10psi on pump gas. There are too many variables to say for sure, alot of them related to what lengths you're prepared to go to get there. Even at 10psi, you could be pushing the limits of your transmission anyway....

02-02-2008, 03:00 AM	#12
Gabe244 Board Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia	update anyone? i wanna do this too an im wondering how much it set you back.

02-02-2008, 08:38 PM	#14
Dauntless No braptraps here. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NSW, Australia	I've decided not to +T my car.

02-04-2008, 02:43 AM	#15
benchricer Board Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: bench	Good choice. __________________ Polaris: Air Jordans for your car

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