Building a B23 from the ground up

[The Aspirator]

Building a B23 from the ground up, on a budget and in a hurry.

- Sunday January 29th: Cruddy old B21FT imploded
- Monday January 30th: Completely planned out every detail of this engine buildup.
- Tuesday January 31st: Took these parts to the machine shop; B23F block, 6 M-rods, crank, intermediate shaft, new Mahle B23F pistons, etc.
- Wednesday February 1st: Ordered all the extra parts like gaskets, pumps and seals from “thelostartof”. And wrote this post .
- Friday February 3rd: Went back to the machine shop to lend him my Green Manual and give him all my clearance specs.
- Tuesday February 7th: Some pics in post #47
Picked up BMW oil squirters from the dealership, picked up a rebuilt/ported/polished 398 from Canuckvolvo, took the squirters and a bunch of other little parts to my machine shop for installation and cleaning. Brought the flywheel in for surfacing too. Bumped the spec for piston out of the hole from .017" to .019" for .028" squish. Huge box of yummy parts came in from thelostartof.
- Tuesday February 14th: Bores have been sized and honed to spec, rods have been resized and rebushed, crank has been ground 10/10/std thrust, flywheel has been surfaced, everything is going out for balancing tomorrow. Machine shop still has to deck the block for the proper positive deck height and machine the block for the BMW squirters. Should have it all back later this week to begin assembly on the weekend.
- Friday February 17th: Picked up all my parts from the machine shop, the bill was $836.55 USD.
Hot tank block --------------- $40.00
Resize cylinders -------------- $61.00
Mag block, check main line ---- $25.00
Machine block deck =0.019" --- $45.00
R&R wrist pin bushings and fit -- $41.36
Clean, inspect, & resize 4 rods - $71.05
Regrind crankshaft ------------- $85.40
Main Bearings (fed mogul) ------ $55.93
Rod Bearings ------------------ $27.20
R&R int. shaft bearings ---------$30.00
Resurface flywheel -------------$30.50
Balance rotating assembly ------$185.00
Machine block for squirters ----- $75.00
Washington sales tax 8.3% -----$64.11

- Friday March 3rd:Over the past two weeks I havn't had a lot of time to work on the engine, but when I could squeeze it in I've been painting, cleaning, assembling, checking, plastigauging, gapping, etc. The mains and rods plastigauged all evenly. The pistons fit great. The squirters fit great. Everything is smooth like vanilla. I hope to get the engine buttoned up this weekend, then maybe in the car this coming week. MAYBE.

- Tuesday March 7th:The engine is done! Shortblock is fully assembled, the head is just waiting for the proper shims to arrive in the mail. Weather permitting I'm hoping to start dropping the engine in by saturday. I thought I just heard hail, and I have to do this swap outside... Check out post #165 and on for some assembled engine pictures.

- Monday March 13th: Yesterday we pulled the B21FT/tranny and installed my new shortblock/same tranny, all before the sun went down. Not bad for starting at noon! It is really nice to have the engine sitting in it's new home, looks gorgeous. Things are coming together quickly now.

- Monday March 20th: 6:00pm, it roared to life. Post #269 has all the details. At this point I haven't driven it yet, but I've done two run-in sessions at a fast idle and I absolutely LOVE this engine. Could not be happier with the way things have turned out, I'm so proud of all the hard work I've done and the final product is WELL worth the pain it was to build this thing. But don't let this thread fool you, it is HARD work building an engine, and with my busy life the past two months it couldn't have happened any quicker. 51 days from the day my old engine blew up to the day the new first started. Even if you have nothing else going on in your life, I can't see it happening in less than a month, and that's working on it a LOT. BUT IT'S WORTH IT!!!

This timeline will be updated throughout the build.

[The Aspirator]

Time to have some more fun guys! It’s been roughly a year since we finished up our “building a B21” project for my brother, and now it’s my turn!!! A few nights ago my engine blew up, so I decided I’m sick and tired of dealing with these crappy old unknown tractor motors, I’m gonna build a decent one. I could do it stupidly cheap but where’s the fun in that, this time around I can afford to do things properly, though I cannot afford custom rods/pistons so stockers will have to do. I’m building it with strength, reliability, and power in mind. New oversized pistons (cast), gonna grind the crank, everything is getting balanced, BMW oil squirters will be installed, rods resized, decked for .030” thou squish, and 10:1 compression. It’s a little higher SCR than I would prefer, but I’ve had these gorgeous pistons sitting here for well over a year and I REALLY want to use them. They have a 6cc dish and a nice fat quench pad. It’ll be fine, with that tight squish I won’t have a problem.

For the head I’m gonna cheap out for now. I’ll get a 398 cleaned and decked, but that’s it. In a few months I’ll go on the hunt for a 531 and go wild on it. For the cam I’m not quite sure what to start out with. I could put the K-cam in, then basically the only change to the car would be the new shortblock. It would be really interesting to feel that change! Or a better overall cam would be the B-cam that I’ve got sitting here, but then it wouldn’t be a direct comparison between engines. Ohh well, all I really care about is making the car better, so I’ll probably stick with the B which I’ve never tried before. And I have this magical custom grind that I will try out shortly after the B .

The only thing that I haven’t exactly nailed down yet is piston-cylinder wall clearance, main bearing clearance, and rod bearing clearance. Stealth if you’re around maybe you could give me some insight? On Erik’s engine we went for 0.0020in (two thou) for all three. I’m thinking that going tighter on this engine would be a good thing.

More soon, I’ll bust out a build list.

John

[Stereophile33]

why don't you go with the same method as your brothers only a b23?
Jonathan

will this be a turbo motor?

edit: You posted the same time I did

[adrianpike]

hots++
Btw, any chance your machinist might have some time coming up to mic out a block & pistons for me?

How much was your order from thelostartof?
My PM box is open, and I'm on MSN if you have to keep it below the radar y0

[The Aspirator]

Of COURSE this will be a turbo motor, I'm not gonna go sucking my way through life . For now it'll be just a crappy stock turbo, will upgrade in the spring.

Adrian my machine shop is awesome, I love working with the guy. And I just sent thelostartof $316 for this stuff (hope you don't mind me posting prices Mike):

- $1.00 - Oil cooler sandwich adapter O-ring (the ~3" one)
- $16.00 - Intermediate shaft bearings B23
- $96.00 - High output oil pump
- $2.00 - 2 oil pump seals
- $46.00 - Upper gasket kit for B23
- $40.00 - Lower gasket kit for B23
- $6.00 - 180* thermostat and gasket
- $26.00 - Crankcase breather box for B23
- $42.00 - HEPU water pump, includes rear gasket, upper and rear seal
- $2.00 - magnetic oil pan drain plug, BLING!
- $21.00 - Timing belt and tensioner
- $4.00 - K-jet injector O-rings, 4 upper, 4 lower.

I think that's it from him. He was all out of freeze plugs so I'll have to source those locally, and I already had leftover wrist pin bushings from the last build.

[945ti]

10:1 eh? I thought the B21/23/230FT piston dish was 27cc? I do know the B21/23 use the same dish. B23/230ET had a shallow wide dish for a quoted 9:1 comp ratio with an SCP 405/531 from what little I have seen. The 9.5:1 B23F pistons are what you are using then? Are they the wide or skinny dish? I forget.
I think an SCP 398 is a wise choice. One might be able to get away with a BCP on a B21 due to more HG material, but on the B23 there is virtually nothing between the fire ring and the coolant passage, seemingly particularly on #4, which is the hottest part of the head and where people seem to blow HGs with BCP heads on B23s.
How much of an overbore will the block be getting etc? I am curious on what the intended setup will be.
Anyway, sounds awesome!
edit:
I'm a nub, B230FT/B23FT dish is not the same colume as the B21FT dish, dispite looking similar dimensionally.

[Hank Scorpio]

Originally Posted by 945ti

One might be able to get away with a BCP on a B21 due to more HG material,

only if staying NA. Trust me

[945ti]

Originally Posted by Hank Scorpio

only if staying NA. Trust me

Ya, I definately didn't think it would be desired...I was just thinking that you might have a little more breathing room. On an overbored B23, heh... I definately believe you though, after seeing you and John toast a good few with BCP heads.

[The Aspirator]

Bling! It's a 9.5 B23F piston, 1st overbore.

John,

on the 21FT, you went for 2 thou [0.002in] clearances on the mains and rods and piston-to-cylinder-wall.

With the crank being ground undersize, and hopefully the mains being align-honed [aka align-bored] and the rods being fully resized, I would suggest going for:

main bearings: 0.0015in to 0.0017in
the thrust at #5: 5 to 8 thou IIRC; although that might be 5 to 9 thou [we went through this on the last motor. the thrust clearance would be the same on this motor]
rod bearings: 0.0015in to 0.0017in
piston to cyl wall clearance: 0.0015in to 0.0018in

i.e., just a tad tighter than you did the 21FT.

squish at 30 thou? very good. with those shallow dishers, oil cooling, and 30 thou squish, you will be a happy camper. And don't worry about the SCR. Thirty thou squish works fine.

the SCP head done up stock will be good. cam choice.....find a way to get a KG2T in there. You can still use it in a 531; if you determine the need to go that way [the 531].

Remember, the rods are crank steered; so you want to make sure that those clearances are in the middle to mid-high of specs [con rod AXIAL clearance]. it is in the green manual. And even though the rods are crank steered, you DO check the rod clearances inside the pistons....between the pin bosses. that spec is also in the green manual.

new rod bolts and nuts would be a good idea.

And smooth that edge around the dish on those pistons.....no sharp edges allowed on the crown.

good luck

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

[quinn_volvo]

John,

How close were your valves from hitting pistons on your last build up?

[The Aspirator]

Quinn, the B21FT had 35thou squish, but we never measured if the valves decended past the head deck. It's got an A-cam so I doubt that is an interference motor. This B23 will be tighter, but as I understand it even if it is an interference motor you're good unless you kill a timing belt.

Thomas thanks for the quick response! The mains on the block are currently being checked for straightness, and if we need to align hone he said it would only be ~$70 so we'll do it for sure IF it needs it. This is still a budget build but we're trying to be as thorough as we can. I'm going back there tomorrow (friday) with the green manual to give him all the specs, I told him to just clean and measure till then.

Main bearings: you always seem to post a target range, ie 0.0015-0.0017. Now you do usually give this range to the machine shop, or do you way I want the mains at 0.0015in? Does two thou really matter if it's within this range?

Thrust bearings: The green manual only says the max clearance, which is 0.0098. In the last monster thread you said shoot for 5-8 thou, which I will. Remember the whole thrust bearing clearance issue we had to deal with last time? This time I'm making sure it gets done right the first time, we will make sure that the crank grinder has the bearings on hand when grinding.

Rod bearings: 0.0015-0.0017 sounds great. I understand rod axial clearance, it's 0.0059in-0.0138in (6 thou to 14 thou) in the green manual. That's a decently wide spec, but what do you do if measures out to be too much? All are getting re-bushed, though I looked really hard in the green manual and could not find the spec for rod clearance inside the pistons... All the rods are being measured for straight, all rod bolts are being measured for stretch. I have many more if needed. Where do you source new bolts and nuts, and how much? I know it would be good insurance, but I'm running low on fundage..... Although my overall goal is to be able to button up the short block so it'll take a beating and never have to be opened up again... So just how necessary would it be?

Piston to cylinder wall clearances: 0.0015in - 0.0018in ehhhhh? For a B23F with cast pistons the green manual suggests 0.0004in - 0.0016in, way tighter than your specs. Got any reasoning? I'll trust you I just need to understand your reasoning. We went 0.0020 on Eriks engine, it smokes bad on each hard shift from boost but I'm suspecting the old worn out turbo. The smoke can be seen out the rear view mirror if you're looking for it, and it's obvious to other cars. Thoughts?

Head and cam choice: All I need for right now is a cheap head that's flat and clean. Cam just needs to be something to get me through the break-in period, so it will be either B or K. When I start beating on the engine I'll be trying out LOTS of cams and noting all the differences. I have a cam here that's been ground very similar to a KG2T, so don't you worry your pretty little head off about me . Later on I will build up another head with bigger exhaust valves, ported and gasket matched.

John

[Canuckvolvo]

Originally Posted by The Aspirator

K-jet injector O-rings, 4 upper, 4 lower.

You're going back to kjet????? Kidding, what are those for? I've got a worked 398 head in my garage you're welcome to try, I'll chat with you later about that.

What's with the "Troll"?

[Stereophile33]

I think he is leaving the k-jet injectors in their to seal the head...and wants new seals to make sure they do their job well.......

[The Aspirator]

Exactomundo, vacuum leaks suck. I had those seals leak when I first put the 405 head on my car, took me forever to figure out why my tune was all wonky and it wouldn't idle below 1800rpm.

[coldfusion21]

^^same here. i replace those seals every chance i get.

Also, im really glad this thread turned up. im planning on building an engine here soon, or atleast starting a few things and im starting to think i might end up going for a b23...

John,

I realize the budgetary constraint. IF the mains are even borderline regarding trueness of alignment: ALIGN BORE. The crankshaft is the center of the universe.

0.0015in is fifteen ten-thousandths of an inch....aka 1.5 thou....aka one and five tenths of a thou....aka one and a half thou.

0.0017in is merely two ten-thousandths of an inch more.

LOAN the green manual to your MS guy; or make a copy of it and put the copy pages in page protectors in a three ring binder [with your name on it] and loan the binder to him. A green plastic three ring binder is a subtle touch....the green manual thing.

Show him the bearing clearance specs. He will SEE how tight the volvo specs are; and that what I say is in the middle of specs. When I say 0.0015in to 0.0017in, that means that you shoot for the 0.0015in, no tighter than; and can live with the 0.0017in. Knowing the range AND the desired clearance, your MS guy can then plan out his efforts to achieve your stated objectives. My MS guys can absolutely NAIL the clearances I specify: once they know what I want. And they always get to use "their" copy of my green manual.

I couldn't recall the exact max limit for the thrust brg. 0.0098in sounds right. And my saying 5 to 8 thou is quite doable. Going for the 8 thou [0.008in] is fine. ten and a half thou [0.0105in] is not fine. Tighter than 5 thou is also not fine. The thrust flanges are not directly line pressure lubed, so you want the 5 thou to ensure that oil CAN get in there. Chamfering the one place on the upper shell [priorly discussed] is a good idea.

Rod axial: your MS should check that BEFORE machining. SO THAT he does not make it too large when he does the grinding on the journals. If a rod is too narrow to give the clearance, get another rod.

Up inside the piston, you want about 10 thou axial. That guarantees no binding/galling of the rod against the wrist pin boss sidewall.

rod bolts and nuts are sourceable from volvo. Your MS can 'test' the bolts for strength. He can tell if the bolts are getting soft; i.e., that they are weakening and would likely stretch and let things go. If you have extras [used ones]for him to try, excellent. If you are going to redline above 6500, NEW bolts and nuts become mandatory....if you want it to live.

When you torque the volvo rod bolts on the 21/23s to specs, you actually do get just about 6 thou bolt stretch [kinduva cool side point; cuz 6 thou rod bolt stretch is one of the little important things on a small block chevy.] clean un-oiled threads; red loctite; torque to specs.

Yes.....piston to cylinder wall clearance of 0.0015in to 0.0018in. goal: the 0.0015in.
why not as tight as the factory spec? Can you or your MS EXACTLY duplicate the factory wall finish? close, but not exact. And are you using a honing plate? likely not.

Therefore, one and a half thou is tight enough for your piston to cyl wall. You won't have any piston slap for a LOT of miles.

piston to wall clearance is not the cause of the spraying-for-mosquitos blue cloud. Ring blowby does that. and high boost really does aggravate the situation. [and overfueling does not do the rings any favors either.] Enhanced volume of crankcase venting can help alleviate/control that. If some oil gets past the rings under high boost/high RPM shifting conditions, I have a difficulty in getting worked up over that. Actually, I would expect that to occur under such conditions.

Cylinder wall surface finish and ring to wall 'seating' affect oil control a lot more than [less than] half a thou more clearance [of the piston to the cyl wall] than factory. At one and a half thou, your pistons aren't "loose" by any standard.

Engine run-in after a build also affects the ring seating to the walls. Do the half hour run-in and go haul ass routine, and don't be surprised when the rings let more oil by. I've explained my run-in procedure priorly. I like to get at least four complete thermal cycles on a motor before it goes down the road. With piston to wall clearances as tight as one and a half thou, that does make a difference.

BTDT; but do it however you wanna.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

[thelostartof]

no worries on posting prices as that's prob near the same everyone else pays give or take a little, got my supplier to drop a few cents/dollars on a few things for those prices since it was a big order so. plus you got that nice PM from me with all of the pictures and part #'s

will try to get ya a tracking # asap i just need to add those last two things on the order and get the order into them in full

[adrianpike]

It is pretty damn awesome to have somebody as experienced as stealth around...

Originally Posted by stealthfti

When you torque the volvo rod bolts on the 21/23s to specs, you actually do get just about 6 thou bolt stretch [kinduva cool side point; cuz 6 thou rod bolt stretch is one of the little important things on a small block chevy.] clean un-oiled threads; red loctite; torque to specs.

Why shouldn't you oil the threads? I've always heard to oil threads for torquing procedures, but I've never built an engine, and torquing rod bolts is a fair bit different than torquing suspension bits.

Originally Posted by stealthfti

Engine run-in after a build also affects the ring seating to the walls. Do the half hour run-in and go haul ass routine, and don't be surprised when the rings let more oil by. I've explained my run-in procedure priorly. I like to get at least four complete thermal cycles on a motor before it goes down the road. With piston to wall clearances as tight as one and a half thou, that does make a difference.

So would you still perform the haul-ass routine after the thermal cycles, or would it be past the point of the ass-hauling making a signifigant impact on the ring seating?

This thread's looking to be quite a good one, especiallly with my B23 whispering quietly to me from the stand...

[Hank Scorpio]

Originally Posted by The Aspirator

Exactomundo, vacuum leaks suck. I had those seals leak when I first put the 405 head on my car, took me forever to figure out why my tune was all wonky and it wouldn't idle below 1800rpm.

Freezeplugs + JB weld or have your machine shop tap them for pipe threads and plugs.

I had freezeplugs doubles up + JBweld and they NEVER EVER blew loose.

Originally Posted by adrianpike

It is pretty damn awesome to have somebody as experienced as stealth around...

so so true... their heads carry so much precious information.

I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of lurkers on this thread.... I will now strap in and join them.


Mike

Originally Posted by adrianpike

Why shouldn't you oil the threads? I've always heard to oil threads for torquing procedures, but I've never built an engine, and torquing rod bolts is a fair bit different than torquing suspension bits.


So would you still perform the haul-ass routine after the thermal cycles, or would it be past the point of the ass-hauling making a signifigant impact on the ring seating?

You loctite the rod bolt threads/nut threads so that the nuts will stay where you torqued them to. Or if a b230 type rod bolt, so that the bolt will stay where you angle tightened it to.

To allow the loctite to properly chemically react and set up, the threads have to be clean.

With a good run-in....at least four thermal cycles [cold-to-op temp-to-cold]; or as I do it for 6-10 hrs of run-in total, including the four thermal cycles....when you do go drive the motor, it does not 'feel' like a just-thrown-together-bunch-of-parts. It feels like a well-oiled, smooth-as-silk, fine piece of machinery. By doing the multiple thermal cycles during the run-in, everything is 'burnished' in. The op temp will be stable....no temp gauge climbing during the first drive because you are trying to force the rings to seat in.

And it may seem strange, but the motor will sound different after several hours of running-in. It sounds smoother. I've done it enough times that I can hear the running-in progressing towards the smoothness; and can tell when it is there.

THEN, you still don't go out and beat on it. You don't have to baby it; but you don't abuse it. The first couple hundred miles of driving help you know your motor's voices: the shortblock's voices, and the cylinder head/valvetrain's voices. After a couple of hundred miles, the choir will be ready to sing. You'll know that by the feel; and because you heard the voices all getting on key and in harmony.

THEN, you are ready for the "Battle Hymn of the Republic". Rock and Roll.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

[Stereophile33]

I like the voices. My wife and friends think I am crazy. I LISTEN to my car like it is trying to communicate to me.

I like the choir, I like The Battle Hymn of the Republic. I just don't want any of those cannons firing inside my motor. No Detonation please...hehe

[Geoff240Ti]

Originally Posted by Hank Scorpio

Freezeplugs + JB weld or have your machine shop tap them for pipe threads and plugs.

I had freezeplugs doubles up + JBweld and they NEVER EVER blew loose.

Word! They have worked great for me so far. This new motor will be sweetness for your car! I'll be following the info on this post (find out what I did wrong hah..).

[Matt Dupuis]

FWIW, the only HG I've blown was the OLD original B21FT I started out with, and I've BEATEN on my 405/B23FT combo without trouble since. Detonation will kill it, but I've done some of that too. The 405 can make you happy too, but I do say that the SCP 398 is a good tough choice.