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Old 05-07-2013, 09:27 AM   #1
stray
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Default Prepping your 240 for Autocross (a Beginner's Guide)

Prepping a RWD Volvo for autocross.

1.Why Autocross?
  • It’s fun!
  • On track skills to on road skills.
  • The Dollars/giggles ratio.
  • A short discussion about intent.
  • Race car or fun car?
  • Which do I really want?
  • What’s the difference?
  • Car level vs. Driver level.
  • Modifying to match your skills.
  • Class considerations.
Stage .5 - your first autocross.
  • Tires/ maintenance
  • Seats/ steering
Stage 1
  • Suspension. Sways/ Bushings/ “sport” shocks.

For additions in the future/ open to contributions from more knowledgeable guys than me.
Stage 2
  • Springs/ shocks/ arms
  • Diff
Stage 3
  • Coilovers
  • Severe weight reduction.
Stage 4.
  • Stripped/ braced/ rollcage.
Power.




So, why Autocross?

Simply put, it’s the cheapest, easiest way to legally flog your car in a competitive environment. And it’s fun. Really, really fun. There’s no safer way to get familiar with the limits of your car’s grip, and that will help make you a safer, better driver on the street. And when you do make a mistake or the unexpected happens, you’ll be better able to react and be less likely to bend up your car.

And perhaps the best reason for a t-bricker to autocross is that it’s cheap. Most organizations will let you use a less-expensive motorcycle helmet, and even if you do need an SA rated helmet (more on this in a second), you can usually pick one up for not a lot of money on Craigslist or Ebay. Even if you can’t do that, you can pick up a good SA helmet for around $130. Check out Zamp helmets for cheap stuff that meets all the standards and is still pretty comfy. Entry fees range the gamut from $15 for a few runs at some clubs to $50+ for longer, all day sessions that usually get you 15-20 runs.
Let’s talk about intent for a second...

I mean, what do you want to end up with when modifying your car? What is your intent? We can reasonably break this up into two categories - street car and race car.

Street Car - I’d classify this as a car that isn’t necessarily a daily, but that gets most of its use on the street. It drives on the street regularly, not just to and from race events.

Race Car - This is a car whose main use is on the track / stage / strip / whatever. It might be driven on the street sometimes (to and from events / shows / meets), but most of the intended mileage is track or competition mileage.

Now ask yourself... what do I want?

I bet that 99% of Turbobricks members would answer “street car”. So the following article is mostly devoted to prepping a car for autocross and yet keeping it a viable street car.

Driver Level vs. Car Level


One of the biggest misconceptions about autocross is that you need a ton of modifications to make it fun/ be competitive. To that, I’d say that it again depends on your goals. If (like most brickers) you are looking to go have fun, maybe learn something about driving, and just generally test your car out on track, then you don’t need anything aside from normal stuff that you likely already have. if you’re seriously thinking about building a Volvo for class-based competitive autocross... I’d say reconsider. You might get to be competitive in your local events, but without going nuts like Towery, you’re going to have a hard time regionally. So my philosophy is that it’s about the cars you beat, not the ones you lose to. Yes, the slick-shod E36 beat you again, but you smoked the guy in the stock viper, and that’s awesome. Even more important is competing against yourself. It’s always satisfying to push yourself harder each run and see your times drop throughout the day.

And for most beginning autocross drivers, modifications are actually an impediment to learning. Yes, that’s right - if you modify your car too much before knowing what you’re doing behind the wheel, you’re not going to learn as quickly or as well. So if you want to learn - really learn - about your car and about how to drive any car on it’s limits, start with as close to a stock car as you can manage. That leads me to the first stage of actually preparing your car for autocross.

Preparation for your first autocross.

“Stage 0” is a great place to start. There’s lots of info on what that entails, but it’s basically a really thorough tune up and replacement of anything the car needs to run and perform well. Specifically for autocross you're going to want to be sure that your wheel bearings are good (grab the front wheels while parked and give them a shake. If there’s a bunch of play and/ or an audible clicking... might be time for new bearings) and that your brakes are in good shape.

Tires are crucial in autocross too. You don’t need the biggest, stickiest tire you can fit in your fenders, but your tires do need to be in fairly decent condition. Just make sure they’re not down to the wear marks, and you should be fine.

Check your organization’s tech sheet and go over it before the event. Most of the time, they require three or four major things.

No major leaks - Basically you shouldn’t have to fill your car with any fluid (except gas) during the event. Small oil or coolant or PS fluid leaks are probably fine.

Battery tie down - This is pretty self explanatory. Some Volvos (all?) have a retention system in the battery tray. Grab your battery and give it a good yank and a shove. If it wont move, you’re probably fine (which is to say that you will be totally fine, but that they might not like it during tech and might fail you... might). Still, making or buying a tie down isn’t a bad idea just to be sure. Don’t forget to put some tape on your terminals, just in case.
Lug nuts tight/ wheel bearings good - again, this is pretty self-explanatory. Bring a lug wrench with you just in case, but if you torque your lugs correctly the night before (or the week before) you should be fine. Also, most organizations have someone on site to check lug torque during tech. If they’re not right, they’ll either tell you, or toque them for you.
A helmet - Don’t forget to check the organization’s requirements here.

And that’s really it. If you meet these requirements and can afford the entry fee/ gas, you are good to go. Have fun!

Stage 0.5

Stage “0.5” is some of the very most basic mods that help at an autocross.

The first thing to consider in any older Volvo is driving position. 240’s are decent, but the 7/9 series cars are both pretty awful, at least for me. They all need serious help to be considered “good”

So consider getting some nicer seats. Old BMW’s, 80’s VW’s (GTI’s and some Jettas, specifically), RX7’s, 240sx’s, Celicas... all of these are great places to find a “new” set of seats. They’re all a huge improvement on the stock stuff, and they can all be found pretty cheaply. Just look for something with decent bolstering and you should be fine.

Getting a decent steering wheel in will help too. Using an aftermarket wheel requires a fairly expensive hub or adapter, but the upside of this is that most of them can accept extenders to move the wheel where you want it. Also, having a smaller wheel speeds up the steering response slightly, as well as increasing the level of feedback you get through the wheel, which is important for avoiding understeer.

Stage 1

Everything up to this point has been to help the driver out, to make your 240 a viable car to autocross with, and to make it a better platform for learning to drive seriously. This stage should be considered the most basic level of modification for your car after your first few autocrosses. They are not mandatory, and they shouldn’t be done until you’re comfortable with your car and comfortable that you can’t get any more out of the stock stuff - which really shouldn’t take too long.

OK, so wtf is stage 1? I define stage 1 as kind of an extension of stage 0. Instead of just replacing and renewing the stock part, we’re upgrading them.

The easiest and one of the cheapest things to upgrade on the 240 are the swaybars. There are several write-ups on uber-cheap methods to upgrade your sways, from doing double sways to simply using a used turbo piece on your NA car, but your best bet is to go for a nice set from either iPD or Kaplhenke. A general rule: if you have the cash, buy from Kaplhenke, but if you don’t, iPD works okay. Ben’s parts are always superb quality, well engineered, and very desirable. Just expect to pay a little more. If you can’t stretch for those just yet, pick up a set from iPD, then sell those when you have the cash together for the Kaplhenke peices.

Swaybars reduce body roll. Simple as that. This article : http://tinyurl.com/ck7sple is part of a larger series that everyone should read, and it explains why that’s a good thing. In general you can expect better steering response and a tighter “feel” to the car.

Another part that is fairly easy to replace, though significantly more costly than a set of sways, is the shocks (or dampers). There are two popular bolt in performance solutions for 240s right now: Koni and Bilstein. Konis are harsher, but better in a lowered car and provide some adjustability, while bilsteins are a decent improvement over the stock junk while still retaining some volvo ride quality for teh streetz. To make it simple: If you’re not lowering the car and/ or are concerned about your ride quality, buy the bilsteins. If you don’t mind a bumpier ride and plan to lower your car (we’ll talk about this soon) the Konis are excellent. It all comes back to what YOU want. There is no silver bullet absolute 100% this-is-the-best-accept-no-less solution unless you have a very specific goal in mind. And if you’re just starting out autocrossing, you shouldn’t! You should just be concerned with messing around in your car and having fun! Who cares if you don’t have the uberest of the uber-badass parts? It’s more fun to beat people on “lesser” stuff anyway.

Last but not least for stage 1 is going to be bushings. Again, we come up against the old question: street or track? Poly bushings are a great in-between solution that doesn’t cost a whole hell of a lot to buy. HOWEVER - if you’re starting to feel like you might want to go nutzo-crazypants (a subjective term) with your checkbook and are considering updating all of your bushings to solid pieces (I’m pretty sure Kaplhenke can do that for you) then maybe wait a bit. If some of your bushings are screwed (they totally are) then replace them with new OEM stuff and save your pennies for something shiny and nickel-plated from Ben in a season or two when you decide that you know what scrub radius is and that you’re tired of yours sucking.

Reassess:

So by now you should have something between a fun daily and a mild (gutless) track car. What you’re driving now (with the possible addition of an LSD) will teach you nearly everything there is to know about driving quickly in the real world. You will learn to slide the car, how to avoid understeer or oversteer, and how to really brake. And soon, oh so soon, you will want to go faster.

Oh yes, you will want to go faster...

More to come!
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:21 AM   #2
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Cheap.
You get what you pay for.

Cheap.
It is the stingy man who pays the most.

Suspension.
safest bet is to ask on multiple forums, but be wary of answers from "racers' in the 20s---who if you think about how many minutes of total seat time they can possibly have, you u realise how limited their experience is..
Far better to listen to the older guys, they've seen more and should have a career twice as long, their career might be maybe cumulatively more than 2 hours of seat time long after 10-12 years.
Whatever they suggest for spring rates, double it at least..

Then you'll be in with the in-crowd and can begin advising people on forums
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:54 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Cheap.
You get what you pay for.
I dunno.... I hear the event in Oregon required a $2000 entry fee. Perhaps just for the 'National' event but geez!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Cheap.
It is the stingy man who pays the most.

Suspension.
Having used different flavors of suspension in my car I can report from experience that Sellholm's product for Volvo is first rate, bolts right in and works as promised without excuses.... I purchased Sellholm's Suspension kit which Includes complete struts, dampers X4, springs X4, control arms with heim joints, strut top mounts with ball pivots that allow lots of adjustment, Alcon calipers for the front and nice big rotors on hats. Well worth the money when it does not fail at speed.

OP 'Solo' isn't the Troll's idea of fun so don't expect any support from him. Bottom line is that any fun you can get out there and have in the car legally and safely is fun.... Do it!
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:46 PM   #4
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Great article!

This is good information I learned from prepping my 240 ready for autocross/rallycross. It was pretty deteriorated from the start and required the full overhaul to make it safe and reliable before any racing happened. Goal was to have a competitive spec DSP 242 Turbo having previously run in Street Touring for 2 years with an S60R.

Main difference I have found modification wise on a turbo car (putting power aside) is the need for some form of LSD to keep the power down. While exiting tighter turns and trying to accelerate quickly one-wheelspin was ever present which resulted in lost time. Even with modulating and attempting to keep traction you could still sense time slipping away. Adding a Truetrac (for me) was the most beneficial in being able to get back up to speed.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:52 PM   #5
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If your starting with a worn out car and are going to be autoxing, theres no point to buying a "sport" setup, you want something thats tailored to Autoxing..... Unless you like repurchasing components

Key components are coilovers, Adjustable strut mounts, and good dampers matched to the spring rates you will be running.

GOOD ALIGNMENT IS CRITICAL, you can't get it with stock diameter springs unless you have adjustable control arms... so the easiest path to kill multiple birds with one stone is a coilover conversion and adjustable strut mounts. Autoxing a 240 without negative camber is an easy way to destroy the outer shoulder on your tires... and if you autox alot your going to be going through tires fairly quickly with only 20% of the tire being worn

steering wheel replacement should be a low priority... the factory later smaller wheels are perfectly fine for autox. there are many of other things that should get priority before thats replaced.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:59 PM   #6
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Whatever they suggest for spring rates, double it at least..
Suggest me some spring rates for my car on revalved bilsteins.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:06 PM   #7
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Suggest me some spring rates for my car on revalved bilsteins.

Let's not clutter up the nice boys thread..
There's a phone number, uyou're 5 miles away, no point in typing.
(I hate typing cause I'm not a fawkin typist)
Be prepared to answer "For what use?"

It's always a question of what end use.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:49 PM   #8
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240's are a great platform for building an inexpensive and quick autocross car.
Using what I have learned through experience and from those who know (Towery, Ben, JohnV, John Lane and a couple others) I have built a cheap and effective car that was very competitive in it's class. Then I moved and the club here doesn't run that class so I need another 100hp to be competitive now.

Before you build a car for autocross check the rule book and build your car to fit a class where it can be competitive.

I'm probably in my suspension about $2k and it works pretty damn good. There's another $2k to be spent getting it exactly where I want it, but there was no reason as there were no 240's (turbo or NA) that were faster on the courses than my NA car. It's not just about what you have on the car, it's how all of the components work together and how well you can drive it. I have seen many well equipped cars run far slower due to the owners inability to drive the car at it's limits.

Spending time learning to drive properly and learning the car is as important as the car itself.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:03 PM   #9
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Let's not clutter up the nice boys thread..
Too late.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:31 PM   #10
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A spring rate discussion is on topic in here I feel, but please delete my posts if they are off topic.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:41 AM   #11
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Think you guys missed the point... Building a car for autocross is not the same as what I've been talking about here. Most guys don't want to throw crazy suspension at their car to go drive around in a parking lot - some do, but not most.

This isn't about the best setup, it's about the best setup to learn on and have fun with. Most of us only have one car. Most of us don't have thousands of dollars to spend on that car to make it faster around some cones. Most of us will be sick of that car in 3 months if we do, because it will ride like **** and most of America is covered in potholes. This is why I advocate going easy on mods at first.

Also, someone just getting into autocross shouldn't be looking to mod their car right away anyway, because they have no clue wtf they're doing behind the wheel.

And as I stated above, unless you go completely nutso on your car (and even then), SCCAs classing screws the 240 royally with respect to autocross. You're always going to be running something lighter or more powerful or both, often with less tire. Hence the line about "regionally, you'll have problems."

Again, this was mostly about getting the average bricker out doing something - ANYTHING - with their car other than staring at it or covering it in stickers. It's not really about about racing per se. It's meant to be broad strokes, I'm not going to talk about shock valving, because the 8 or 10 guys in the country who give enough of a **** about that to do something about it already have, and presumably already know what they're doing.

I just see too many new kids who have this ****ed up notion that anything fun you do with a volvo means thousands in modifications first. I say, make it nice, then go do whatever the hell you want. You don't NEED coilovers. You don't even NEED lowering springs or nice tires. these things will make you faster, sure, but will they make you a better driver? Will they make the event more fun? Possibly... but not absolutely.

What they do guarantee is a huge perceived barrier to entry for 90% of turbobricks members who just want to have fun with their cars. Seriously, most of these guys will be OK with a set of billys, some lowering springs, and a cut G80. And the wonderful thing about the internet is that you can recoup probably 70 or 80% of the money spent on that stuff when you decide you're ready for coilovers and arms. For your outlay you get a bunch of experience on a softer (but still competent) platform and the knowledge to say definitively what you want your car to do once you get those shiny new coilovers on.

Christ man. TL;DR - Maybe I should retitle the thing and rewrite it. "How to have fun with your Volvo 240" or something, just to differentiate this guide from the existing (?) one about serious suspension tuning setups for autcross. Which totally exists.

Quote:
Main difference I have found modification wise on a turbo car (putting power aside) is the need for some form of LSD to keep the power down
Yeah, this is definitely the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lane
OP 'Solo' isn't the Troll's idea of fun so don't expect any support from him. Bottom line is that any fun you can get out there and have in the car legally and safely is fun.... Do it!
Yeah, this is pretty much what I mean. I just thought that having a rudimentary "guide" of sorts would give this idea some credibility. So many kids are so afraid of embarassing themselves that they never actually go out and do it. this artcle should be the framework to get them around that fear and give them some sort of basic "do this and you'll be fine" instruction manual to their first couple of autocrosses.

Also, this article sat on my hard drive for about 2 years, so if it's disjointed, you can see why.

Last edited by stray; 05-08-2013 at 09:50 AM..
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:47 AM   #12
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I have built a cheap and effective car that was very competitive in it's class. Then I moved and the club here doesn't run that class so I need another 100hp to be competitive now...

It's not just about what you have on the car, it's how all of the components work together and how well you can drive it. I have seen many well equipped cars run far slower due to the owners inability to drive the car at it's limits.

Spending time learning to drive properly and learning the car is as important as the car itself.
Pretty much yes to all of this. Tighten the nut behind the wheel first, then worry about your suspension setup. Get the basics done (bushings, non-blown shocks, alignment) and go DRIVE the POS.

Quote:
steering wheel replacement should be a low priority... the factory later smaller wheels are perfectly fine for autox. there are many of other things that should get priority before thats replaced.
That was more about fitting the car to you than anything else. I always have ergonomic issues with volvos. It wasn't until my latest car that I've really had a great driving position and holy crap it's so much better now. Maybe it's because I'm like 6'3 and have long legs?


Anyway, thanks for the input everyone.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:54 PM   #13
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I just see too many new kids who have this ****ed up notion that anything fun you do with a volvo means thousands in modifications first. I say, make it nice, then go do whatever the hell you want. You don't NEED coilovers. You don't even NEED lowering springs or nice tires. these things will make you faster, sure, but will they make you a better driver? Will they make the event more fun? Possibly... but not absolutely.
Sure you can autox your 240 in HS, BTDT and nothing wrong with that approach especially if your new to the game. BUT, if you are upgrading your car after you have been autoxing and intend to autox the car and are upgrading the springs to improve your cars performance for autox: it's stupid to waste time and money on sport springs when coilover setups are much better for the application and only marginally more expensive and hugely more versatile.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #14
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That was more about fitting the car to you than anything else. I always have ergonomic issues with volvos. It wasn't until my latest car that I've really had a great driving position and holy crap it's so much better now. Maybe it's because I'm like 6'3 and have long legs?
I'd say if you're 6'3 then your an exception not the rule and if you're trying to write a guide for autoxing that one modification that helped you is going to be much less beneficial to other people who are much closer to the average body type and height...
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:12 PM   #15
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I'd say if you're 6'3 then your an exception not the rule and if you're trying to write a guide for autoxing that one modification that helped you is going to be much less beneficial to other people who are much closer to the average body type and height...
I'm 6'4" and never had an issue with the turbo wheel.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:23 PM   #16
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I'm 6'4" and never had an issue with the turbo wheel.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:50 PM   #17
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:11 AM   #18
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Pretty much yes to all of this. Tighten the nut behind the wheel first, then worry about your suspension setup. Get the basics done (bushings, non-blown shocks, alignment) and go DRIVE the POS.



That was more about fitting the car to you than anything else. I always have ergonomic issues with volvos. It wasn't until my latest car that I've really had a great driving position and holy crap it's so much better now. Maybe it's because I'm like 6'3 and have long legs?


Anyway, thanks for the input everyone.
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I'm 6'4" and never had an issue with the turbo wheel.
yea, the steering wheel is the last thing someone should be spending money on these cars.... The seats are 10000x worse then the steering wheel is...
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:06 AM   #19
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I actually prefer a larger wheel. When you have a tiny wheel you have no where to put your hands. The amount you turn the wheels is the same, and feels more natural having a wheel closer to the diameter as your shoulder width.

Seats are very important though, but if you don't want to use different seats a $100 4-point harness works great for keeping you in the seat Just make sure when you are on the road you use your factory seat belt, since the harness really is not that safe.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:36 AM   #20
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I actually prefer a larger wheel. When you have a tiny wheel you have no where to put your hands. The amount you turn the wheels is the same, and feels more natural having a wheel closer to the diameter as your shoulder width.
I don't think anyone could actually call the smaller wheel that came on a 240 small.... Its just not big rig / school bus status. I think its normal. When you start getting into some of the sparco karting stuff, thats when you get small.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:44 AM   #21
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350mm is my preferred diameter.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #22
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for all the arguments in this thread, im glad its here.

there are many schools of thought on how to make a 240 handle, and like the OP said, its all about what you want, and what you have to work with.

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Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
Sure you can autox your 240 in HS, BTDT and nothing wrong with that approach especially if your new to the game. BUT, if you are upgrading your car after you have been autoxing and intend to autox the car and are upgrading the springs to improve your cars performance for autox: it's stupid to waste time and money on sport springs when coilover setups are much better for the application and only marginally more expensive and hugely more versatile.
I hate to generalize TB, but i dare say most of us started out in HS working on a ****ty Volvo because thats what we had. and many people who started out with a Volvo didnt stick with it, so maybe the initial investment wasnt worth it. I think the OP is just trying to make sure everyone weighs all their options before biting a $1k bullet. Dont get me wrong, im really glad you are involved in this discussion as you are one of the "8 or 10 guys who give a **** about this" but be mindful that not everyone has the same goals. there's nothing wrong with auto xing a stock 240 with IPD sways and springs. Its actually loads of fun to drive, and can be somewhat competitive depending on who else is on the track.

my 2 cents
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:32 PM   #23
blkaplan
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Originally Posted by slow240 View Post
for all the arguments in this thread, im glad its here.

there are many schools of thought on how to make a 240 handle, and like the OP said, its all about what you want, and what you have to work with.



I hate to generalize TB, but i dare say most of us started out in HS working on a ****ty Volvo because thats what we had. and many people who started out with a Volvo didnt stick with it, so maybe the initial investment wasnt worth it.
I didn't start with a fully prepared car. My mom bought my 88 new, in 88 and then I got it when i turned 15 in ~98, and started to autox it in HS.

I autoxed my car in HS for a year before I did any mods to it and I had a blast doing it. I wanted to go faster so

I then added IPD swaybars and it still sucked

photo proof :



That bumped me into STS which i ran for 3 years.
I then added B&G springs and R-sport dampers I got back from SAM back in the day and it was much more fun and felt better but it wasn't fast at all.

I then + T'd it and went to SM, Autoxed it like that for about a year.

Things were getting better but the handling still sucked. Too much understeer, not enough negative camber. Not really any parts to buy at that point so I designed and built adjustable control arms so i could be a good alignment on it. It worked great.

Most of the time i was still on virgos w/ 225 50 15 hoosiers. that blew.

Upgrading to a 15x7 was a big upgrade.

i could go on for pages with this...

I didn't really have anyone I could ask about setting up a 240 to Auto-X, if I did I probably would of taken a different and path and gotten much faster much more quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slow240 View Post
I think the OP is just trying to make sure everyone weighs all their options before biting a $1k bullet. Dont get me wrong, im really glad you are involved in this discussion as you are one of the "8 or 10 guys who give a **** about this" but be mindful that not everyone has the same goals. there's nothing wrong with auto xing a stock 240 with IPD sways and springs. Its actually loads of fun to drive, and can be somewhat competitive depending on who else is on the track.

my 2 cents
Honestly if your gonna be autoxing, i wouldn't waste your money on the ipd sport springs, buy the 25mm front bar and call it a day. Its way too soft and the diameter of the springs is too big. Installing coilover stuff really isn't much more then sport springs especially if you can DIY and in the long run if you have good alignment you're going to save money on tires.

PS: A stock 240 doesn't have ipd sways and springs.

Will it be fun, probably.. will it be competitive. not really unless your in the European chucky cheese internation autox league.

Last edited by blkaplan; 05-09-2013 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by slow240 View Post
my 2 cents
Just a FYI, putting that face at the end discredits your entire argument.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:47 PM   #25
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Upgrading your car's suspension is pointless if you are running crap tires. You will just overload the tires faster and will not be a handling improvement. The obvious first step is to widen your footprint and make it stockier. Then you can see what sucks about your suspension and go from there.

It is good to ask lots of questions, but on this forum its difficult to get an unloaded answer.discussions are good, its the whole point of the forum.

And I too was competetive in autocross and placed 2nd in DSP divisionals in the new England region over 10 years ago in my SE-R Spec V
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