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Old 06-24-2008, 08:06 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Karl Buchka View Post
I don't mean to nit-pick, but that statement makes absolutely no sense.
why do wookies live on endor?
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Karl Buchka View Post
I don't mean to nit-pick, but that statement makes absolutely no sense.
Ethanol is a very good solvent. I dont remember where i have read it, but it dissolves gasoline if there isnt too much water dissolved in the ethanol already.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:44 PM   #253
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I don't mean to nit-pick, but that statement makes absolutely no sense.
Yes it does.

When mixing one set of molecules with another set of molecules they will not take up as much space when blended as they do if they were separated.

You can easily do an experiment with ethanol and water. Use a good container which is marked very well. Pour in exactly one liter of water and one liter of ethanol and it will take up less space than two liters.

Look at this. It is the easiest explanation I could find on the net as of this time: http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/demos/...eets/15.1.html

Other liquids have a much greater effect on the volume change since the elements mix to form a totally different molecular structure.

I am a math/physics/chemical 2nd grade engineer as base (well... not so much chemical engineer actually, but it is a requirement). That is required to become a digital hardware engineer. You need to know how everything works around you before you can start to understand how theoretical physics and particles/energy works on a sub-atomic level.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:31 AM   #254
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I'm probably going to convert my new car to E85.
'87 745ti. Manual transmission. N/A pistons. 9.x:1 compression.
It'll likely get a 531 head with a basic port and a KG2T cam. Signs grooves and a thin HG.

I've got the general idea down, I've just got some questions about getting the best bang out of it.

I've done the math, and with current prices, switching to E85 and adding 30% more fuel will give me the same dollar/mile cost, save for a few hundredths of a cent.
Now, figure in the ability to advance timing more, and being able to cruise on the highway at a lower throttle level, it should be significantly beneficial.

Fuel delivery:
Would I be better going with a higher line pressure and a shorter pulse, for the idea of better atomization? My terminology is probably off, but I think you'll understand the question?

EMS:
My car is LH2.2
How much of a benefit would I see by converting to 2.4 and adding your chips? Enough to offset the cost/time involved?

Thanks for an ingenius writeup, and also for continuing the support!
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Old 06-27-2008, 01:32 PM   #255
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threw a CEL light story

I posted already here. I wanted to try and run E85 in my 944T with Ford 3.8L CFI injectors "402".
It all went well while I was in town going under 50mph most of the time and a few minute test run on the highway at 65-70 mph.
Few days ago i had to go Denver (about 1 hr drive) and I filled up with E85 and off we went.

The car pulled fine, but by the end of the trip (about 70 miles) my air-fuel-ratio meter from Sunpro started showing that I'm running rich. I have only 10 LED bars on the meeter and it is hooked up the the o2 sensor wire.
So by the end of the trip it woudl stay on the rich bar (one before last).
Then I stopped and went on with our business.
When I come back and start the car (say, after 15 minutes) the AFR meter shows rich (last bar) and stays there with no throttle and I see CEL is on.
So i went nicely to the nearest filling station and added few gallons of 91 gas and unpluged the black battery cable for a while and it cleared cell and the rich LED move from the last bar to the one before last where it stayed on for the whole trip back (another 70 miles).
NO CEL showed up since then.
Also, the next day in town (under 50 mph speeds) the car would behave normally again.

I have a question here: is it a normal behavior? Will changing to bosch "400" injectors help me with this highway thing? Also why is my AFR meter showing rich like that.

I guess i'm not grasping all science of the process here.

1) thanks a bunch
2) sorry for that many words
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:20 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Tamnakz View Post
Fuel delivery:
Would I be better going with a higher line pressure and a shorter pulse, for the idea of better atomization? My terminology is probably off, but I think you'll understand the question?
Better and bigger (more modern) injectors is by far much better than adding bigger (used) injectors and raising the line pressure.

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Originally Posted by Tamnakz View Post
EMS:
My car is LH2.2
How much of a benefit would I see by converting to 2.4 and adding your chips? Enough to offset the cost/time involved?
With LH2.4 your car would probably use less fuel due to its higher efficiency.

But...

You have LH2.2 so you can manually adjust the base ignition timing to a higher value if you want. That will give you both power and better fuel economy if done right.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:11 AM   #257
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Fredrik, been following the post with interest. Not much E85 in Australia but i just happen to live in proximity to one og the larget ethnaol production facilities in the country. I am just about to jump and just want to be certain that i dont screw it up I have 1992 B230F LH2.4 stock. Which are the injectors you recommend i should install to run on E85 with no other modifications.
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Old 07-03-2008, 06:23 AM   #258
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Fredrik, been following the post with interest. Not much E85 in Australia but i just happen to live in proximity to one og the larget ethnaol production facilities in the country. I am just about to jump and just want to be certain that i dont screw it up I have 1992 B230F LH2.4 stock. Which are the injectors you recommend i should install to run on E85 with no other modifications.
Since I still am not 100% certain of the stock size of the injectors, it is a little bit hard. But something equivalent to stock turbo injectors will be very good.

Also talk to JW240. He has been running NA for a while with E85 and some mods.
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:54 AM   #259
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Hello!

about cold starts.

anyone knows, are in stock flex-fuel cars used fuel or intake air heaters?

where can i see photos or schemes of this heaters?

thank you, sorry for bad english.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:58 AM   #260
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Hello!

about cold starts.

anyone knows, are in stock flex-fuel cars used fuel or intake air heaters?

where can i see photos or schemes of this heaters?

thank you, sorry for bad english.
A few of them use a heater for the fuel rail, but most of them just richen the mixture up a lot. It will not really be an issue until you get down to below -10 / -15 degrees Celsius or so.

It will however be harder to start when the temperature is around 0 degrees Celsius. But if your injectors are sized right, it will work fairly good.
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:57 AM   #261
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I live in Ukraine, "before last" winter one time was -32 C, but usually about -10 ... -20 C.

i plan to start small business, produsing and installing equipment for using E100 and E85 on usual cars.
it will be "impulse wideners" and/or reprogramming of ECU - becouse its universal for many types of cars and installing and deinstalling without traces - our car dealers can stop warranty for car if any electric units are installed NOT in their services.

and i have to develop a preheater for cold starting - so i cant deside what to heat - fuel or air.

fuel heater may be like biodieselers do - heating by glowwire fuel ramp or injectors, not to very high temp.

air heater may be like ring with ceramic or wire heater between intake collector and MAF sensor - it easy installing and deinstalling
or plase diesel glow "spark plug" in each tube of intake collector near the intake valve and limit its temp by resistor or other way. it cant be uninstall easilly and traceless, but i think its better solution.

driver tunrs on ignition and do noot turn on the starter - glow plugs heats air in intake collector by 30 - 45 sec - and switching off becouse they takin much electricity and it is no good for starter. driver starts engine - intake collector contains 1-2 liter of warmed air, it is enough to start engine.

before intake filter will be the thermostat like this - it will mix cold outside air and hot air, taked near output collector and automatically keepeng temp 25 C - its cheap and do not using electricity, there is bimetall plate inside. but it can warm air only after engine starts and output collector warms up.

http://acat.autodealer.ru/index.php?tree=8_717

code of thermostat is 2108-1143010

So question is: what to heat? what better: ingection of cold fuel in cold air of intake collector or injecting cold fuel with warm air?

Last edited by Obormot; 07-18-2008 at 12:25 PM..
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Old 07-18-2008, 07:58 PM   #262
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I live in Ukraine, "before last" winter one time was -32 C, but usually about -10 ... -20 C.

i plan to start small business, produsing and installing equipment for using E100 and E85 on usual cars.
it will be "impulse wideners" and/or reprogramming of ECU - becouse its universal for many types of cars and installing and deinstalling without traces - our car dealers can stop warranty for car if any electric units are installed NOT in their services.

and i have to develop a preheater for cold starting - so i cant deside what to heat - fuel or air.

fuel heater may be like biodieselers do - heating by glowwire fuel ramp or injectors, not to very high temp.

air heater may be like ring with ceramic or wire heater between intake collector and MAF sensor - it easy installing and deinstalling
or plase diesel glow "spark plug" in each tube of intake collector near the intake valve and limit its temp by resistor or other way. it cant be uninstall easilly and traceless, but i think its better solution.

driver tunrs on ignition and do noot turn on the starter - glow plugs heats air in intake collector by 30 - 45 sec - and switching off becouse they takin much electricity and it is no good for starter. driver starts engine - intake collector contains 1-2 liter of warmed air, it is enough to start engine.

before intake filter will be the thermostat like this - it will mix cold outside air and hot air, taked near output collector and automatically keepeng temp 25 C - its cheap and do not using electricity, there is bimetall plate inside. but it can warm air only after engine starts and output collector warms up.

http://acat.autodealer.ru/index.php?tree=8_717

code of thermostat is 2108-1143010

So question is: what to heat? what better: ingection of cold fuel in cold air of intake collector or injecting cold fuel with warm air?
I can answer that question very easy.

Heat the fuel. It has to do with weight/density of the substance that is heated. Heating 100 grams of fuel before starting is the same as heating 1000 grams of air. 100 grams of fuel does not take up much space, but 1000 grams of air takes up a lot of space. Even before the car has finished the 5-10th revolution, all the air that you heated will be gone.

And if you are going to convert cars to run on E85 or E100 in the way you want to do it, then NEVER put a piggyback pluse-widener on a chip tuned car or any other car that is close to maxing out the injectors.
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:03 AM   #263
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about heating:

1. fuel in ramp is circulating (going back to a fuel tank) and i have to warm up much more fuel then burns in engine right now.
2. we have 2 carb cars, running on E100 - their owners told, that carbs are WERY cold when engine is running - ethanol takes much more energy to vaporisation, and it takes it from air. if air will be cold?


about converting - it will be "piggyback" OR chip tuning - becouse some cars can be tuned easily, quickly and it will not cost much, but some cars are "on warranty" or they are new or unpopular and i cant tune their chips. i prefer "piggyback" - i design my own and it will cost much less then Brazilian units.

changing injectors is not good - i know that gas stations with E85 or E100 will be at 1-2 cities in our country this and next year and if you want to go for a long way you have to switch to a gas.
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Old 07-21-2008, 11:28 AM   #264
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1. fuel in ramp is circulating (going back to a fuel tank) and i have to warm up much more fuel then burns in engine right now.
But if the engine is not running the fuel will not be circulating.

You only need a couple of cc's of fuel that is heated to start the car. Then the car will stay running with the E85 even though it is cold.
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:17 PM   #265
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how do you think, can i use E100 without any gasoline addition with fuel preheater for cold starting?

E100 will be cheaper than E85...

I already testing my "piggyback" device, installed on Nissan Note 1,6 AT with 96% ethanol. works fine, but now is summer, heater is not installed... where can i see drawings or photos of original fuel ramp heaters from stock flex-fuel cars?

P.S. I found this text on one of sites about biofuel:

"An interesting feature of the fuel injection system is that it doesn't require any gasoline during the cold weather starting process to fire the engine up. Since the fuel is injected at a pressure of about 250 PSI, the alcohol fuel is sufficiently vaporized to ignite easily within the combustion chamber."

what can you say about it?

P.P.S. have a problem: when engine running about 3000-4000 rpm and quickly remove foot from gas sometimes engine stops, other times rotation speed lower to about 500 and quickly returns to usual 750.

Last edited by Obormot; 07-22-2008 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:41 PM   #266
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Default is it possible to do a poll about fuel economy (MPG) with e-85

I have noticed that I could do roughly 15-17 mpg in city driving on my 95 944T with injector swap to FORD 5L CFI "400" injectors.

thanks guys
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:35 PM   #267
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"piggyback" device is tested, all problems solved. start to pruducing :-)

did you advance timing for E85 or ethanol?

there is a device for it:
http://www.aeb.it/products/timing-advance-processors
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:22 PM   #268
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"piggyback" device is tested, all problems solved. start to pruducing :-)

did you advance timing for E85 or ethanol?

there is a device for it:
http://www.aeb.it/products/timing-advance-processors
Yes, you can advance timing quite a lot.

Depending on static and dynamic compression, 12 degrees or so is possible under light to medium load. And 3-6 degrees (sometimes more) during heavy load.

At high rpm and high load simultaneously, the timing should in many cases stay close to stock unless the engine has been altered in such a way to actually benefit from it.

Pinging is not really an issue with moderate timing advance. It will run "hard" though, and feel really strange if the timing is too advanced. When I say that it runs and feels "hard", then what actually happens in real life is that the power that should push the piston down actually occurs a little too early and counteracts the movement of the piston.

Peak cylinder pressure should occur at around 15 degrees after TDC in most of our engines for best power (if the fuel allows you to do so). Also keep an eye on the exhaust gas temperature if you are running a full standalone like MS or equivalent.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:17 AM   #269
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i think it will be easy to add timing advance to my "piggyback" device - just add 2 wires - input and output from crancshaft position sensor.

did most engines using 60+2 scheme of control pins?
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:34 AM   #270
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Hello!

some people told, that platinum spark plugs can not be used with ethanol fuels.

have you any info about it?
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:55 AM   #271
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i think it will be easy to add timing advance to my "piggyback" device - just add 2 wires - input and output from crancshaft position sensor.

did most engines using 60+2 scheme of control pins?
I don't really understand your question.

All LH2.4 cars use 60-2, yes.
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:56 AM   #272
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Hello!

some people told, that platinum spark plugs can not be used with ethanol fuels.

have you any info about it?
That is not a problem at all.

But i doubt that you will gain anything by using platinum plugs in an 8v engine. They will probably wear out just as quick as the "regular" ones.

i will use platinum plugs on my 16v though, but that is for a whole other reason.
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:20 PM   #273
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for my 16V there is only platinum spark plugs.
their lifetime is 60 000 km - by service manual.
how do you think, will ethanol reduce it's lifetime?

Last edited by Obormot; 08-18-2008 at 12:27 PM..
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:39 PM   #274
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for my 16V there is only platinum spark plugs.
their lifetime is 60 000 km - by service manual.
how do you think, will ethanol reduce it's lifetime?
No. It will not reduce its lifetime. It will actually prolong it since it will not foul the plug at all. The plug will get a light gray or light brown color at the most.
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:10 PM   #275
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No. It will not reduce its lifetime. It will actually prolong it since it will not foul the plug at all. The plug will get a light gray or light brown color at the most.
same color as the oxygen sensor, looks like its almost new.
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