Freeze 12, Duracool and Envirosafe 12a?

Cliff · 06-22-2006, 03:49 PM

Are these about same products? If not which one will be the coldest for my 245. I've already change the compressor, reciever/dryer and change all the o rings but I did not change the evaporator. Also, I already pulled vacuum and so far no leak.

boosted · 06-22-2006, 03:52 PM

freeze 12 is synthetic r12. can replace r12 and works almost as well. duracool is for r134a, has less volume, and puts less of a load on the compressor.

unsure about envirosafe

blarf · 06-22-2006, 03:55 PM

No, there is no such thing as 'synthetic' R12. No, not all alternative refridgerants are created equal.

Cliff · 06-22-2006, 03:59 PM

I just called Envirosafe and they told me to use the Industrial 12a. They are in IL and love it in their cars and better for warmer climates like here in FL.

Anybody have Experience with Industrial 12a?

henry_sigourney · 06-22-2006, 06:49 PM

Make sure whatever you choose is not flammable. Some of the R12 replacement products have butane and such in them. This is bad in a crash.

Justin922 · 06-22-2006, 07:49 PM

Just find a friend who is a mechanic and has thier section 509 epa cert and they can buy R-12. we can still get it here in GA and its best. otherwise just do the r-134a conversion and its not noticably any different if done properly. you will need to add more 134a than 12 to have it cool as well because 134a uses a slightly higher pressure. I did the conversion in my wife's 745 regina and used .4lb more 134a than it specified for 12. her vent temp is 41 deg f, thats cold enough for me!

tjts1 · 06-22-2006, 08:06 PM

Most of these easy to use R12 replacements are some combination of dried propane and butane.
I don't see why everybody is soo worried about the flamability of hydrocarbon based AC. We drive around with 10-20 gallons of gasoline in an unsealed container all the time. I don't think 14oz of propane scattered throughout the AC system are going to bring down the house.
For example the flash point of:
gasoline = -40C
propane = 68C

henry_sigourney · 06-22-2006, 08:26 PM

I don't think the AC system was designed for flammable refrigerant in the context of a crash. The fuel system stops pumping when the engine stops turning.

AFAIK Freeze 12 is not flammable. Given the choice......

fengler · 06-22-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff

I just called Envirosafe and they told me to use the Industrial 12a. They are in IL and love it in their cars and better for warmer climates like here in FL.

Anybody have Experience with Industrial 12a?

i do, i recently filled my system with it, LOVE IT. very cold, im surprised more people dont know about this( i didnt know about it till a month ago)

Tabor · 06-22-2006, 09:31 PM

Duracool and Envirosafe:

They are flamable, but work better than Freeze 12. In fact, Envirosafe has a $3,000,000 insurance policy and no one has filed a claim yet.

Freeze 12: It is full of r134a which is highly toxic and can easily kill you if it leaks into the cabin in even the smallest amounts. Also, if it comes in contact with flame it turns into something even nastier (hydrofloric acid maybe, I can't remember).

Would you rather blow up with really cold AC or die from poisoning with moderately okay AC? I will take envirosafe thank you.

EDIT- And if the Envirosafe starts leaking into the cabin you will smell it because they add cent to it. The same can not be said for r134a/Freeze 12. I don't know about duracool.

boosted · 06-22-2006, 09:37 PM

****, i breathe in r134a all the time

765tiME · 06-22-2006, 10:06 PM

I was going to say...^^ ...I work in the toxic gas detection business and r134 has a fairly high exposure threshold before its deadly (like 100%), and only then because there is no oxygen left to breathe.

and you would have to contain the gas and heat it to about 1200C to generate HF (hydrogen fluoride).

The only real fear with any HFC is freeze burns (ok and environmental impact)

peehound · 06-22-2006, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabor

Duracool and Envirosafe:

They are flamable, but work better than Freeze 12. In fact, Envirosafe has a $3,000,000 insurance policy and no one has filed a claim yet.

Freeze 12: It is full of r134a which is highly toxic and can easily kill you if it leaks into the cabin in even the smallest amounts. Also, if it comes in contact with flame it turns into something even nastier (hydrofloric acid maybe, I can't remember).

L0AD 'O SH**T
I can't remember, too, but I'm senile.
What's your excuse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabor

Would you rather blow up with really cold AC or die from poisoning with moderately okay AC? I will take envirosafe thank you.

Dumm da DUM dum....DUMB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabor

EDIT- And if the Envirosafe starts leaking into the cabin you will smell it because they add cent to it. The same can not be said for r134a/Freeze 12. I don't know about duracool.

What, exactly, DO you know about????

blarf · 06-22-2006, 11:32 PM

Err what? If it's EPA approved (as some of the hydrocarbon blends are), it's been tested for safety, but not for longevity in an automotive A/C system. If you're sticking with one of the EPA approved blends, I wouldn't worry about getting blown up anytime soon.

Tabor · 06-22-2006, 11:53 PM

yarchive.net/ac/r134a_lethal.html

Quote:

In August 1997, a study was done at the Armstrong laboratory, Wright
Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH. The report, "Human Inhalation of
Halon 1301, HFC-134a and HFC-227ea for Collection of Pharmacokinetic
Data" was authored by A. Vinegar, R. Cook, J McCafferty, M. Caracci, and
G. Jepson.

The concentration of R-134a being used was extremely low and (then
thought) that nothing bad was going to happen. To quote from the bottom
of page 10 (page 11 if abstract prepended), "Subject #3 was the first
volunteer exposed to

HFC-134a. The exposure concentration was 4000 ppm (0.4% v/v) and was
scheduled to last for 30 minutes with a 5 minute postexposure evaluation
period as was accomplished in the Halon 1301 portion of the study.
Approximately 4.5 minutes into the exposure, the subject lost
consciousness and both pulse and blood pressure dropped to zero."

765tiME · 06-23-2006, 12:33 AM

I can't speak to Armstrong Labs or whatever airforce base, I reference OSHA and ACGIH...

If you Google r134a and terms like PEL (permissable exposure limit) or TLV (threshold limit value), TWA (time weighted average) and OSHA (occupational safety and health association) you'll see there is no established exposure limit (trust me they do the testing and fine heavily). If you also Google MSDS (material safety data sheet) for the stuff you'll see its a simple asphyxiant (meaning avoid high concentrations where O2 can be depleted). I've pulled a couple of MSDSs on the gas and even as late as '04 its still without an exposure limit. I'd be leary of your primary source of info regarding toxicity. It may well be an asphyxiant at .4% by volume (can't happen leaking into the atmosphere unless super air tight).

Tabor · 06-23-2006, 12:49 AM

www.pioneerair.com/MSDS_R134a.pdf

OSHA has never established an exposure limit, true. If this means anything to you, go ahead, breath it all day. However, DuPont, the f***ing inventor of the god damn chemical (and patent holder, I may stress) has established a maximum exposure limit of only 1,000ppm. That is 0.1% by volume. If you think that dumping a couple of pounds of r134a into the cabin of a sedan can't get the concentration up to 0.1% by volume, I have a very shiny bridge to sell you.

Tabor · 06-23-2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boosted

****, i breathe in r134a all the time

It is causes testicular cancer.

fengler · 06-23-2006, 01:06 AM

hahhaha gotta love two guys arguing about refrigerant

765tiME · 06-23-2006, 01:07 AM

You're quoting speculation at this point. If it were proven of harming anything at all it would have an OSHA PEL and a TWA, ...again they really do all the testing. This is such BS though I will try to keep it off my balls.... Again I have been in gas detection (toxic and otherwise for nearly 20 years) so I ain't buying it.

Tabor · 06-23-2006, 01:16 AM

I'll buy the r134a if you'll breath it. 4000ppm for 30 min. You must supply the paramedics if you feel like being recesitated.

Cliff · 06-25-2006, 02:18 AM

Thanks for the reply/arguing. I'll the envirosafe 12 later after I fix/tune my car.

dalek · 06-25-2006, 02:56 AM

It seems EPA had a thing against Duracool 12a: http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

JohnLane · 06-25-2006, 12:53 PM

Did it come with R-12? (yup)
Then put R-12 back in. It is available and works good.

Tabor · 06-25-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnLane

Did it come with R-12? (yup)
Then put R-12 back in. It is available and works good.

How do you apply this logic to the rest of the components in your car?

06-22-2006, 03:49 PM	#1
Cliff Board Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Orlando, FL	Freeze 12, Duracool and Envirosafe 12a? Are these about same products? If not which one will be the coldest for my 245. I've already change the compressor, reciever/dryer and change all the o rings but I did not change the evaporator. Also, I already pulled vacuum and so far no leak. __________________ For Sale 84 245 ms&s -e, v cam, greentops E46 M3

06-22-2006, 03:52 PM	#2
boosted Board Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: melbourne, fl	freeze 12 is synthetic r12. can replace r12 and works almost as well. duracool is for r134a, has less volume, and puts less of a load on the compressor. unsure about envirosafe __________________ 240 driver

06-22-2006, 03:59 PM	#4
Cliff Board Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Orlando, FL	I just called Envirosafe and they told me to use the Industrial 12a. They are in IL and love it in their cars and better for warmer climates like here in FL. Anybody have Experience with Industrial 12a? Last edited by Cliff; 06-22-2006 at 04:06 PM..

06-22-2006, 08:06 PM	#7
tjts1 Board Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Smellingham, WA	Most of these easy to use R12 replacements are some combination of dried propane and butane. I don't see why everybody is soo worried about the flamability of hydrocarbon based AC. We drive around with 10-20 gallons of gasoline in an unsealed container all the time. I don't think 14oz of propane scattered throughout the AC system are going to bring down the house. For example the flash point of: gasoline = -40C propane = 68C __________________ Greed is good. tits for president

06-22-2006, 09:31 PM	#10
Tabor volvoholic Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR	Duracool and Envirosafe: They are flamable, but work better than Freeze 12. In fact, Envirosafe has a $3,000,000 insurance policy and no one has filed a claim yet. Freeze 12: It is full of r134a which is highly toxic and can easily kill you if it leaks into the cabin in even the smallest amounts. Also, if it comes in contact with flame it turns into something even nastier (hydrofloric acid maybe, I can't remember). Would you rather blow up with really cold AC or die from poisoning with moderately okay AC? I will take envirosafe thank you. EDIT- And if the Envirosafe starts leaking into the cabin you will smell it because they add cent to it. The same can not be said for r134a/Freeze 12. I don't know about duracool. __________________ 1983 Volvo 245T with too many mods to list 1975 Volvo 242DL PARTING OUT pm me for parts!

06-22-2006, 03:55 PM	#3
blarf Board Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: disabled account land	No, there is no such thing as 'synthetic' R12. No, not all alternative refridgerants are created equal. __________________

06-22-2006, 06:49 PM	#5
henry_sigourney Board Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lexington, MA	Make sure whatever you choose is not flammable. Some of the R12 replacement products have butane and such in them. This is bad in a crash.

06-22-2006, 07:49 PM	#6
Justin922 I'm back bitches! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, GA	Just find a friend who is a mechanic and has thier section 509 epa cert and they can buy R-12. we can still get it here in GA and its best. otherwise just do the r-134a conversion and its not noticably any different if done properly. you will need to add more 134a than 12 to have it cool as well because 134a uses a slightly higher pressure. I did the conversion in my wife's 745 regina and used .4lb more 134a than it specified for 12. her vent temp is 41 deg f, thats cold enough for me!

06-22-2006, 08:26 PM	#8
henry_sigourney Board Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lexington, MA	I don't think the AC system was designed for flammable refrigerant in the context of a crash. The fuel system stops pumping when the engine stops turning. AFAIK Freeze 12 is not flammable. Given the choice......

06-22-2006, 09:37 PM	#11
boosted Board Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: melbourne, fl	****, i breathe in r134a all the time

06-22-2006, 10:06 PM	#12
765tiME Board Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Maine	I was going to say...^^ ...I work in the toxic gas detection business and r134 has a fairly high exposure threshold before its deadly (like 100%), and only then because there is no oxygen left to breathe. and you would have to contain the gas and heat it to about 1200C to generate HF (hydrogen fluoride). The only real fear with any HFC is freeze burns (ok and environmental impact)

06-22-2006, 11:32 PM	#14
blarf Board Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: disabled account land	Err what? If it's EPA approved (as some of the hydrocarbon blends are), it's been tested for safety, but not for longevity in an automotive A/C system. If you're sticking with one of the EPA approved blends, I wouldn't worry about getting blown up anytime soon.

06-23-2006, 12:33 AM	#16
765tiME Board Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Maine	I can't speak to Armstrong Labs or whatever airforce base, I reference OSHA and ACGIH... If you Google r134a and terms like PEL (permissable exposure limit) or TLV (threshold limit value), TWA (time weighted average) and OSHA (occupational safety and health association) you'll see there is no established exposure limit (trust me they do the testing and fine heavily). If you also Google MSDS (material safety data sheet) for the stuff you'll see its a simple asphyxiant (meaning avoid high concentrations where O2 can be depleted). I've pulled a couple of MSDSs on the gas and even as late as '04 its still without an exposure limit. I'd be leary of your primary source of info regarding toxicity. It may well be an asphyxiant at .4% by volume (can't happen leaking into the atmosphere unless super air tight). Last edited by 765tiME; 06-23-2006 at 12:40 AM..

06-23-2006, 12:49 AM	#17
Tabor volvoholic Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR	www.pioneerair.com/MSDS_R134a.pdf OSHA has never established an exposure limit, true. If this means anything to you, go ahead, breath it all day. However, DuPont, the f***ing inventor of the god damn chemical (and patent holder, I may stress) has established a maximum exposure limit of only 1,000ppm. That is 0.1% by volume. If you think that dumping a couple of pounds of r134a into the cabin of a sedan can't get the concentration up to 0.1% by volume, I have a very shiny bridge to sell you.

06-23-2006, 01:06 AM	#19
fengler Board Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: In the land of boredom	hahhaha gotta love two guys arguing about refrigerant

06-23-2006, 01:07 AM	#20
765tiME Board Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Maine	You're quoting speculation at this point. If it were proven of harming anything at all it would have an OSHA PEL and a TWA, ...again they really do all the testing. This is such BS though I will try to keep it off my balls.... Again I have been in gas detection (toxic and otherwise for nearly 20 years) so I ain't buying it.

06-23-2006, 01:16 AM	#21
Tabor volvoholic Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR	I'll buy the r134a if you'll breath it. 4000ppm for 30 min. You must supply the paramedics if you feel like being recesitated.

06-25-2006, 02:18 AM	#22
Cliff Board Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Orlando, FL	Thanks for the reply/arguing. I'll the envirosafe 12 later after I fix/tune my car.

06-25-2006, 02:56 AM	#23
dalek Benchracer Tribe Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gainesville, FL	It seems EPA had a thing against Duracool 12a: http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html __________________ "you can't leave your thingy hanging in public... you can get arrested." "What's Arkansas supposed to be, Kansas for pirates?" Forg "I think I can touch the tire. Damn! I can touch the tire! That hurts!" 240Psycho (on the back seat of my 94 Jetta while I was driving to a J/Y) "Use the barbed adapter like what I use to inflate the air camping mattresses and my dates." FTF Engineering i am inspired. i will replace my windsheild... with an intercooler.swedishK

06-25-2006, 12:53 PM	#24
JohnLane Board Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Northern Washington	Did it come with R-12? (yup) Then put R-12 back in. It is available and works good. __________________ Overkill is consistently more fun. Impossible numbers guy!!

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