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-   -   B230+T5 3k rpm shake (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=352028)

stick70 10-30-2019 02:54 PM

B230+T5 3k rpm shake
 
So this has been a problem for a long time in my 242, but the car has also been sitting for a long time. I'm now contemplating new clutch/trans options and I want to see if anyone else is on the same page as I am.

I'm running the JVAB flywheel/Saab clutch package he sold a while back. It's well known (there's literally discussion right now in another thread) that you're supposed to stack washers under the pressure plate to get the spacing right for the clutch disk. Whatever. I did it, didn't like it, but it worked. All the washers were the same, etc.

Here's the problem. The car has always had a shake at 3k rpm. Doesn't matter what gear, at 3k, it shakes like hell. We're talking about after having driven it for a long time I'm worried if I don't fix it stuffs gonna break. Has anyone else had similar problems? This was not an issue before the t5 swap, the engine was great before then. I always assumed it was the clutch and the sketchy washers. I'm considering going to a yoshifab clutch/fw but I don't want to drop serious $$ on it if that won't fix the issue. Recently a guy messaged me on IG complaining about a similar deal.

What do you guys think? Discuss.

culberro 10-30-2019 03:02 PM

Are you using the Viggen 215/228 pressure plate or one of the larger Saab pressure plate?
Does it shake in neutral?
Does it shake in gear while the clutch pedal is pushed in (car not moving)?
What t5 adapter are you using?
Single piece driveshaft?

Check the slip yoke and tailshaft bushing, that's where most of the t5 vibrations come from. There should be near zero play.

Stiggy Pop 10-30-2019 03:03 PM

throwaway anecdotal data point: my car doesn't SHAKE at 3k rpm but there is a small rpm window right around 3k that is just a wicked resonant frequency for NVH/driveline vibrations. Has been there since forever, all sorts of setup changes, motor mount changes, various bushings, two clutches and flywheels.. It just buzzes like a beehive right at 3k then smoothes right back out.

stick70 10-30-2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by culberro (Post 6010453)
Are you using the Viggen 215/228 pressure plate or one of the larger Saab pressure plate? Saab 9-3? 240mm clutch
Does it shake in neutral? Memory isn't 100% but IIRC yes
Does it shake in gear while the clutch pedal is pushed in (car not moving)? Again memory is at 3k always it shakes
What t5 adapter are you using? Kaplhenke
Single piece driveshaft? Two piece m46 shaft shortened and balanced, it did the same thing with a one piece

Check the slip yoke and tailshaft bushing, that's where most of the t5 vibrations come from. There should be near zero play. No play that I can find, it being a shake in any gear at the same engine speed should rule this one out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop (Post 6010454)
throwaway anecdotal data point: my car doesn't SHAKE at 3k rpm but there is a small rpm window right around 3k that is just a wicked resonant frequency for NVH/driveline vibrations. Has been there since forever, all sorts of setup changes, motor mount changes, various bushings, two clutches and flywheels.. It just buzzes like a beehive right at 3k then smoothes right back out.

This is probably a better way to describe what I've got going on. It shakes the hell out of the shifter and makes the knob buzz enough that it's alarming. For real I'm afraid it's going to break something in the trans. I could ignore it on stock mounts (though it bugged me), on stiff mounts I can't deal with it. Which is a shame because it's smooth as silk everywhere else.
Stock B230F, and again, no such issues before the T5 swap. This is not a driveshaft vibration.

FWIW my whiteblock swapped 122 w/ a T5 trans has a similar resonant vibration, but it's at 6k, and isn't nearly as bad. I'm running at 3k rpm all the time, it's impossible to ignore.

Harlard 10-30-2019 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop (Post 6010454)
throwaway anecdotal data point: my car doesn't SHAKE at 3k rpm but there is a small rpm window right around 3k that is just a wicked resonant frequency for NVH/driveline vibrations. Has been there since forever, all sorts of setup changes, motor mount changes, various bushings, two clutches and flywheels.. It just buzzes like a beehive right at 3k then smoothes right back out.

Yep same.

So far the best option has been to use a diesel passenger mount, soft stock style driver side mount, and a modified STS Machining 3rd mount with something like this in place of the solid rod:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Honda-C...k/352715837519

Still vibrates like an industrial hoo-ha rattler between 2500-2900 RPM. Next up will be adding trans cross member bushings. If those don't work, the trans mount will be replaced with E46 M3 style puck mounts.

The T5 definitely makes things worse as far as resonant vibrations go.

Tfrasca 10-31-2019 10:18 AM

I've got similar issues with my T5z. The two things that helped the most were changing from poly to rubber training arm bushings, and using the big damped 4 cylinder slip yoke.

Stiggy Pop 10-31-2019 11:38 AM

yup, I feel like we are probably all dealing with the same thing basically. The STS torque rod on the engine does NOT help. I really think it's a harmonics thing.

Uncleknucklez 10-31-2019 11:53 AM

Buzzy T5 here as well :bouncy: I hate it and have been researching other options lately.

JohnMc 10-31-2019 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tfrasca (Post 6010798)
I've got similar issues with my T5z. The two things that helped the most were changing from poly to rubber training arm bushings, and using the big damped 4 cylinder slip yoke.

Mine (regular garden variety V8 5.0 Mustang T5) was OK with the 1 pc driveshaft. A little noisy, but not bad.

Then after shredding and ovalizing the torque rod bushings, I stuck some IPD adjustables on with poly bushings. And picked up some really bad vibrations. Mostly power on, mostly around (roughly) 3000 rpm. Like shaking the whole car. Not like something was out of balance, just BBBBRRRNRRREZZRZRZZRZR FUuuuuuuU!U!!!

I assumed I'd screwed up the u-joint angles and spent a month or two trying to 'fix' it. Rear of the trans up/down/in between. Careful measurement of the u-joint angles front and rear, setting the torque rod lengths to get that spot on. None of it seemed to make any difference. Thn out of frustration I set the adjustable torque rods full short. Really bad u-joint angles (in theory). No change. Set them about as long as safe. No change.

Then I got a set of crusty rusty old stock torque rods from a junkyard 240 and bolted them on. No vibration.

Dunno, I'm just assuming the B230 made vibrations, the T5 modified/amplified them, and the rear axle acted like a speaker for them when mounted using poly bushings? I certainly didn't fix any issue that would *cause* vibration by replacing snug poly bushings with slightly wiggly stock rubber, but it apparently changed the harmonics of the drivetrain as a whole.

After the LS swap, I was hearing some clunks from under there. Yep, shredded bushings and ovalized housings again. I threw the IPD arms back on and no real vibrations. Other than a sort of weird no-torque vibration at speeds 'well north' of 100 I've noticed. Smooth under power, smooth on engine braking, but at a 'neutral' throttle setting, vibration. not very comforting feeling, makes me think of Jared's new parts car with the broken driveshaft.

oldschoolvolvo 10-31-2019 12:13 PM

The 2.5k-3k decel rattle is what drives me nuts. :bleh:

The trans / shifter isn't "still" while driving, but doesn't shake a concerning amount as OP mentions.

I have rubber engine mounts, rubber trans mount, Kaplhenke hybrid torque rods, 1pc driveshaft, Aerostar slip yoke damper.

JohnMc 10-31-2019 12:16 PM

That reminds me - I made mine a lot quieter inside the cabin by using a leather/plastic shift knob that (I think) absorbed some vibrations and sounds that the lever was trying to carry inside the car. I originally had a round hard plastic knob that was a lot noisier.

Still made noises, just lower volume.

One of these:
https://cfc7329ad537523a5de1-b21544d...7213g_4696.jpg

shoestring 10-31-2019 12:16 PM

You guys are not selling the T5 swap here.

VB242 10-31-2019 12:19 PM

I added some 1/4" rubber pieces between the transmission cross member and the frame which took out a lot of the vibrations. Had to use longer bolts.

Stiggy Pop 10-31-2019 12:20 PM

Interesting the variance in levels of noise/vibe, I think we have a combination of people's setups exacerbating and helping the fact and also the difference in peoples tolerance levels for a little NVH. I have never had anything I'd call a vibration or anything close but it BUZZES the dashboard like a bastard. I do not find my transmission (t5z) noisy or rattly itself, but I do get that shifter rattle on decel in the 3k rpm window but I don't think it's that bad. I do have to check the 4 screws holding the shifter in as they love to buzz themselves loose then the shifter REALLY gets noisy. To me this is an engine/bushing conversation and the transmission is not CREATING noise for me mostly.

To me it's the dashboard. I don't get so bothered feeling it in my feet, seat, or hands but the ****ing dashboard is impossible. I have butyl rope wadded up and jammed in between every single piece of plastic but I just can't win. I'm actually going to pull the dash when this season is over and think hard about how to make some real changes as the buzzy dash is my only major driveability issue right now.

Stiggy Pop 10-31-2019 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoestring (Post 6010848)
You guys are not selling the T5 swap here.

I love mine, it's not the transmissions fault that I put it behind a vibey four-cylinder then dropped it into a 1970's ****box :lol:

it's that or follow the trend and spend a bunch of money on a cd009 swap with terrible gear ratios :)

JohnMc 10-31-2019 12:25 PM

I'm not all that happy with my CD009 so far. But mostly it's that shifter I used (top mount CBF). Pops out of 5th, and I don't think it's the transmission's fault. There's just practically no detent force holding it in). And it's not as tight and precise as I'd like it to be.

And the ratios are not good, I think it would work better with a really tall rear axle. Like a 3:1, somewhere around there.

culberro 10-31-2019 12:27 PM

My DD 244 with an m47 gets a vibration in the exhaust around 3k rpm. The heat shield on the cat starts to rattle just a bit.... This might just be a resonance frequency with the redblocks.

As far as t5 noises, the rally car uses a 2-piece drive shaft, rear links with rod ends, poly trans mount, and very stiff rubber motor mounts... and it's quiet. The Hurst shifter does get buzzy around 4k, but that's about it. I did go through the t5 and tighten up the countershaft bearings, and the slip joint and tailshaft bushing isn't all blown out.

T5 in the v8 drift car is also smooth as can be.

Stiggy Pop 10-31-2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMc (Post 6010855)
I'm not all that happy with my CD009 so far. But mostly it's that shifter I used (top mount CBF). Pops out of 5th, and I don't think it's the transmission's fault. There's just practically no detent force holding it in). And it's not as tight and precise as I'd like it to be.

And the ratios are not good, I think it would work better with a really tall rear axle. Like a 3:1, somewhere around there.

At one point I had an aftermarket (MTC?) shift boot on my car that was really thick and stiff compared with OE, it was stiff enough it was actually pulling the t5 out of fifth. Tried running no boot already?

I'm just super picky on ratios. Part of the reason is because of how much I built my car for top end power, so to me the right gear spacing to stay in the power is the difference between the car being fun and quick or totally useless around here.

Harry Tuttle 10-31-2019 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by culberro (Post 6010856)
My DD 244 with an m47 gets a vibration in the exhaust around 3k rpm. The heat shield on the cat starts to rattle just a bit.... This might just be a resonance frequency with the redblocks.

I am in total agreement with this. Any time something gets loose in the exh system in my 240, the rattle happens around 3k rpm.

I do not have a dog in this t5 discussion, [/bad metaphor] but as I see it everyone who puts a t5 in a 240 has at least one thing in common: they all built a custom mount for the transmission. I suspect that these various mounts have different qualities regarding how they transmit nvh to the body.

gsellstr 10-31-2019 03:11 PM

Definitely would help to know if it shakes in neutral, and also if it shakes while not moving with the clutch in and out, just to rule out the trans if possible.

Yes, I'm part of the 'My T5 rattles on decel' group as well.

JohnMc 10-31-2019 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop (Post 6010857)
At one point I had an aftermarket (MTC?) shift boot on my car that was really thick and stiff compared with OE, it was stiff enough it was actually pulling the t5 out of fifth. Tried running no boot already?

I'm just super picky on ratios. Part of the reason is because of how much I built my car for top end power, so to me the right gear spacing to stay in the power is the difference between the car being fun and quick or totally useless around here.

I need to do that - I'm using the stock rubber 240 boot on it now. And the shifter is on an offset, so it moves up and down with the shifter throw, so in 5th it is pulling the lever down some.

And the current setup is just a sort of placeholder until I get around to putting on the narrowed Ford 8.8 I have sitting in the garage. I just wanted to get the car up and driving around before finishing up the last few things on it.

The CD009 just has some weird ratios.
1 - 3.784
2 - 2.324
3 - 1.624
4 - 1.271
5 - 1.000
6 - 0.794

Certainly not made to work well with a 3.73 rear end. Although apparently, in the Nissans they use them with a 3.5(ish) rear end - so they're spinning the motors pretty fast most of the time.

Harlard 10-31-2019 03:30 PM

Well yeah, the powerband is between 4000-7500 on those VQ engines. It makes sense.

JohnMc 10-31-2019 03:33 PM

LS motor don't need no revs. *grunts in pushrodian*

stick70 10-31-2019 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMc (Post 6010843)
Mine (regular garden variety V8 5.0 Mustang T5) was OK with the 1 pc driveshaft. A little noisy, but not bad.

Then after shredding and ovalizing the torque rod bushings, I stuck some IPD adjustables on with poly bushings. And picked up some really bad vibrations. Mostly power on, mostly around (roughly) 3000 rpm. Like shaking the whole car. Not like something was out of balance, just BBBBRRRNRRREZZRZRZZRZR FUuuuuuuU!U!!!

I assumed I'd screwed up the u-joint angles and spent a month or two trying to 'fix' it. Rear of the trans up/down/in between. Careful measurement of the u-joint angles front and rear, setting the torque rod lengths to get that spot on. None of it seemed to make any difference. Thn out of frustration I set the adjustable torque rods full short. Really bad u-joint angles (in theory). No change. Set them about as long as safe. No change.

Then I got a set of crusty rusty old stock torque rods from a junkyard 240 and bolted them on. No vibration.

Dunno, I'm just assuming the B230 made vibrations, the T5 modified/amplified them, and the rear axle acted like a speaker for them when mounted using poly bushings? I certainly didn't fix any issue that would *cause* vibration by replacing snug poly bushings with slightly wiggly stock rubber, but it apparently changed the harmonics of the drivetrain as a whole.

After the LS swap, I was hearing some clunks from under there. Yep, shredded bushings and ovalized housings again. I threw the IPD arms back on and no real vibrations. Other than a sort of weird no-torque vibration at speeds 'well north' of 100 I've noticed. Smooth under power, smooth on engine braking, but at a 'neutral' throttle setting, vibration. not very comforting feeling, makes me think of Jared's new parts car with the broken driveshaft.

So this is interesting, I'm running the ipd poly arms also. Maybe I'll cut up a stock set to length and see what that does. I'm also on Ben's spherical bearings in the bottom of the axle.

I should add I'm on stock trans mount, and this isn't in the dash, its trans/shifter in that area. Engine mounts are the yoshifab ones everyone thought were too stiff (land rover?) but at idle and everywhere else it's great. Decel rattle is a whole different beast. I've got that in 4th gear in 2 cars and it is what it is, I've learned to ignore it.

The car is getting a new water pump right now, and I stole the slip yoke off of it for my 122. I'll get that stuff sorted and update with some more specifics when I can.

shoestring 10-31-2019 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop (Post 6010852)
I love mine, it's not the transmissions fault that I put it behind a vibey four-cylinder then dropped it into a 1970's ****box :lol:

it's that or follow the trend and spend a bunch of money on a cd009 swap with terrible gear ratios :)

I will admit I raced a 244 Turbo with a new Tremec(?) T5 this year at Palmer and that was a damn fine gearbox. For a street or even DD car, though, I'd do an M90.


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