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-   -   Tilton Hydraulic Release Bearing and T5 notes (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=357178)

carver 10-03-2020 11:55 PM

Tilton Hydraulic Release Bearing and T5 notes
 
Just a few notes on the use of the Tilton Hydraulic Release Bearing with a WC T5 trans.

First off, get the correct Tilton part for the job. For 8.5" clutches used with the STS lightened flywheel you'll want a 52mm bearing face. Do not buy the Tilton model 60-6104 for the T5 with a flat face, clutch engagement will suck. If you did get the Flat face bearing, return it and get part number 60-6032. Failing that, you can get the universal kit which is 60-6000, but you will need to have the threaded sleeve machined to fit the T5 input shaft retainer (also does not include the anti-rotation pin, get the 60-6032 if at all possible). Do not mix and match pistons from other kits in an attempt to fix the problem. From Tilton support:

"The main body, piston and bearing are different. If the 52mm bearing/piston were installed into your current 60-6104 HRB, it would not be able to sit down in the main bore because we use a HRB body with a taller inner guide tube for all our 6100-Series HRBs with a flat-face bearing in order to get more available stroke for use with the larger OE-type clutches.
The part number for a 52mm bearing version of the HRB would be 60-6032."


Here's a pic of the difference between a 52mm bearing and piston sitting in the 60-6104 housing at rest and the correct 60-6032 (60-6000) setup below. Note the difference in the amount of piston exposed with an attempted retrofit. This, with the recommended bearing clearance settings (3.17mm), can leave the piston close to its end of travel. There's a chance your setup will pop the piston before full clutch disengagement and piss brake fluid all over your fancy clutch setup. Guess what? You're ripping everything out again...

https://i.imgur.com/w4QBC7h.jpg
Could be a problem....

https://i.imgur.com/NYb0LIK.jpg
That's the correct kit at rest position.

Here's a comparison shot of the two bearings and pistons, you can see how much travel you lose when you look at the installed photos above.

https://i.imgur.com/1J5Bzsp.jpg
Flat face 60-6104 versus 52mm 60-6032

If you're using some other size clutch, I recommend a consult with the guys at Tilton to get the correct setup the first time. Technical@tiltonracing.com

While I'm on it, the T5 input shaft retainer has to be cut down no matter what release method you use. For use with the Tilton threaded sleeve I would recommend a steel bearing retainer, as it sits back further than the aluminium versions.

https://i.imgur.com/VSroYo0.jpg
Aluminum on the left steel on the right. Notice the base height difference? (60-6000 threaded sleeve in the background, requires machining)

You can then machine the steel retainer to the length of the Tilton sleeve and have plenty of adjustment. If you do go with the aluminum retainer you may need to shorten the Tilton threaded sleeve as well.

https://i.imgur.com/n0vd9yM.jpg
Retainer trimmed to 40mm , sleeve fits on perfectly (not pictured).
Don't forget to set up the bearing properly for clutch wear. Instructions come with the kit and there are countless vids on youtube as well. This setup also requires a pedal stop which is also covered in the instructions and online. Failure to set properly can lead to a real fustercluck.

For my setup I used a Deeworks adapter plate and a bellhousing machined by Ben at Kaplhenke Racing LLC. At first I was all set to leave it be, but Ben machines his housings for use with his adapter and leaves a lip (with a very sharp edge I might add) to index his adapter. Nothing wrong with that, but one of the nice things about the T5 swap is that you can remove the transmission without removing the bellhousing. That is the worst part of the M46 setup in my opinion, rotating that damn thing to get in or out is a PITA. Unfortunately, the lip can cause the bearing assembly to get caught up during install with the bellhousing mounted to the engine first. In comes the half inch carbide burr.

https://i.imgur.com/CVXQk4v.jpg
You just need to open the bellhousing to the same dimensions as the adapter plate

https://i.imgur.com/2SdLiYF.jpg
Inside view

https://i.imgur.com/xSNhPeX.jpg
Installed

Finally, during install be very careful to not stress the hydraulic lines coming off the bearing assembly. Feed the lines through the old clutch lever opening and check clearance often to insure you're not beating the hell out of anything. I used the Volvo rubber grommet from a clutch cable setup, wrapped rubber around the lines and threaded eveything through the cable retainer on the bellhousing. Lines were then zip tied in place a la Turbobricks.

https://i.imgur.com/tNCRRmE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CIxU4W2.jpg
In retrospect I would have reversed the grommet...

For a master cylinder you could probably go for .70 but I'm running a .75. Pegasus Racing has Girling and OPB units that work great for this setup in the stock location.

Girling
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...p?Product=3500

OPB - cheaper but made in the UK and uses same rebuild kits as Girling.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...oduct=3519-102
(Just a note, first one was DOA... never had an issue with the girling units.)


Side note: If using a custom one piece driveshaft the correct rear flange yoke is the Spicer 2-2-329 for a 1310 u-joint. For cars with the 14mm cap bolts and locknuts.

Side Side Note: T5 vibrations and gear decel noise got you down? Check this thread.

Hope somebody finds this useful.

oldschoolvolvo 10-04-2020 09:03 AM

Thanks for posting this

thelostartof 10-04-2020 08:54 PM

Nice post, I am running a t5 with the tilton setup with the threaded piston.

Myself I did not have to modify anything. I bolted it up and installed and done. Took all of the measurements needed and installed without any extra machining or cutting. I am running a yoshifab clutch and flywheel with an older t5 adapter plate with the stock steel front bearing cover.

By far the best clutch feel I have ever had with the t5.

aristg 10-05-2020 03:54 AM

Very nice and detailed writeup.

By the way any details about the same subject but for M90 ?

carver 10-05-2020 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aristg (Post 6118863)
Very nice and detailed writeup.

By the way any details about the same subject but for M90 ?

Sorry, no experience on the M90 front. I've never even seen one, just the stuff that made it to the US market.

Looks like everybody has a different experience, mine may have been hindered by doing this all myself on jackstands in a carport. Covid times suck. ;-)

740atl 10-07-2020 08:23 AM

I was surprised to see this posted... I was looking at the 60-6104 for a ford 302 with the T5... Just so I understand, the reason you had to cut the input shaft retainer was the difference in offset between the volvo engine and transmission correct? The other two competitors to the Tilton unit (Hays and Ram) both come with input shaft retainers that look like they've been machined down to the diameter of the bearing.

volvowagoon 10-07-2020 09:07 AM

Oh boy, this is good stuff. Although I've made some pretty good progress on the TKO swap in my Camaro, this HTOB stuff is reminding me that the best may be yet to come. :omg:

culberro 10-07-2020 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 740atl (Post 6119596)
I was surprised to see this posted... I was looking at the 60-6104 for a ford 302 with the T5... Just so I understand, the reason you had to cut the input shaft retainer was the difference in offset between the volvo engine and transmission correct? The other two competitors to the Tilton unit (Hays and Ram) both come with input shaft retainers that look like they've been machined down to the diameter of the bearing.

When I used a 52mm Tilton setup, I had to trim the TO bearing sleeve down because the ID of the 52mm bearing/sleeve is smaller than the flat face one.

carver 10-07-2020 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 740atl (Post 6119596)
I was surprised to see this posted... I was looking at the 60-6104 for a ford 302 with the T5... Just so I understand, the reason you had to cut the input shaft retainer was the difference in offset between the volvo engine and transmission correct? The other two competitors to the Tilton unit (Hays and Ram) both come with input shaft retainers that look like they've been machined down to the diameter of the bearing.

Yeah that's correct, although some people have said they didn't need to. If I recall correctly it looked like the stock input was about 10mm longer than the M46 setup. I just machined to the tilton sleeve length as the extra was unnecessary.

Harlard 10-07-2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelostartof (Post 6118813)
Nice post, I am running a t5 with the tilton setup with the threaded piston.

Myself I did not have to modify anything. I bolted it up and installed and done. Took all of the measurements needed and installed without any extra machining or cutting. I am running a yoshifab clutch and flywheel with an older t5 adapter plate with the stock steel front bearing cover.

By far the best clutch feel I have ever had with the t5.

How's the stiffness? I have the same clutch but am using an M90 fork with a yoshifab spaced throwout bearing. 5/8" master, 3/4" slave. Feels is fine but it is a remarkably heavy pedal (feels like 100 lbs on my foot).

thelostartof 10-07-2020 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlard (Post 6119689)
How's the stiffness? I have the same clutch but am using an M90 fork with a yoshifab spaced throwout bearing. 5/8" master, 3/4" slave. Feels is fine but it is a remarkably heavy pedal (feels like 100 lbs on my foot).

Way lighter and easier to use, with the m90 fork and spacer it killed my leg after an hour of driving. With the Tilton it is much more bearable.

Also I think I just realized why the OP cut the bearing cover, he has a v6 one vs using the v8 one that requires no mods. I have a v6 T5 with a v8 bearing cover and no mods were needed.

carver 10-08-2020 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlard (Post 6119689)
How's the stiffness? I have the same clutch but am using an M90 fork with a yoshifab spaced throwout bearing. 5/8" master, 3/4" slave. Feels is fine but it is a remarkably heavy pedal (feels like 100 lbs on my foot).

Just swapped out to a .70 Girling master and the clutch is like butter... So easy I thought there was something wrong when I first tried it.

Hank Scorpio 10-10-2020 02:00 PM

Pinned this thread to the top. Thanks for amazingly useful info.

mikep 10-12-2020 01:54 PM

If anyone needs a 5/8" master, look for 1977 datsun 620 truck.
$14-$21 on rock auto.

Harlard 10-12-2020 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikep (Post 6120904)
If anyone needs a 5/8" master, look for 1977 datsun 620 truck.
$14-$21 on rock auto.

That's cheap. I'm using a Wilwood master, which goes for about $50.

mikep 10-12-2020 06:10 PM

The wilwood brake master is a datsun knockoff, but comes in a 1" size. I think I have a 15/16" from a 280z. The bolt pattern is a wee bit off.

bartman 11-22-2020 04:42 PM

How is everyone addressing the pedal travel? I have rigged up a clamp for the brake pedal stalk and a rather long carriage bolt. I tried to find an elevator bolt locally but they were all too short.
The clutch releases pretty quick, not much travel needed, I was surprised at that.
I am using a Tilton with a 3/4” bore master. I am not real happy with the amount of foot pressure needed but maybe I will get used to it.

carver 11-30-2020 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartman (Post 6132079)
How is everyone addressing the pedal travel? I have rigged up a clamp for the brake pedal stalk and a rather long carriage bolt. I tried to find an elevator bolt locally but they were all too short.

I made a pedal stop out of aluminum with a rubber bumper. Looking to make something adjustable in the future. Something like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartman (Post 6132079)
The clutch releases pretty quick, not much travel needed, I was surprised at that.
I am using a Tilton with a 3/4 bore master. I am not real happy with the amount of foot pressure needed but maybe I will get used to it.

Did you allow for clutch wear in your initial setup? I'm using a .70 Girling Master and my clutch starts to release at the half way mark of pedal travel. Fully released at 75% travel. Also, it's super light.

Off topic but is anybody using a poly T5 trans mount, and how's the vibration?

Harlard 12-01-2020 12:47 AM

Wish my clutch was as light as you describe. Guess I'm gonna have to sneak into your wagon and give it a footie.

carver 12-01-2020 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlard (Post 6134085)
Wish my clutch was as light as you describe. Guess I'm gonna have to sneak into your wagon and give it a footie.

:lol:

Also my clutch is only a yoshifab stage 2 kit so that might have something to do with it.

Greg Wong 12-02-2020 01:03 PM

This is the pedal stop in my 240. The bump stop is from Energy, I believe. It mounts up with one of the existing firewall bolts. It has a real nice feel when you hit the stop. Very positive, but not metal to metal.

http://users.rcn.com/gwong76/htob/DSC00091.jpg

http://users.rcn.com/gwong76/htob/DSC00093.jpg

I also have the Energy poly T5 trans mount, seems to be fine. It's not a super hard poly. It's hard to say on the vibration, the engine (ford v8) lopes a bit, and I think the whole car would be vibrating even with a stock rubber mount.

JohnMc 12-02-2020 01:17 PM

I need to experiment with a smaller bore clutch master on my setup (it's all basically Camaro T56 parts, mounted on a CD009).

The clutch pedal is stiff, which isn't a huge deal, but the engagement point is too short. Certainly drivable, but it would be a bit easier to drive with a bit less pedal pressure and a bit more engagement travel.

I'm using a stock Volvo 260 master cylinder now, .75" bore.

LC4CARL 12-05-2020 01:50 PM

Great stuff.

MikeSr. 12-05-2020 02:15 PM

I used a .75” Wilwood master cylinder with my T56 and couldn’t get enough engagement even with the pedal all the way down- changed to a stock 260 master and it engaged about halfway down- don’t know why, but much better.

Tfrasca 12-15-2020 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelostartof (Post 6118813)
Nice post, I am running a t5 with the tilton setup with the threaded piston.

Myself I did not have to modify anything. I bolted it up and installed and done. Took all of the measurements needed and installed without any extra machining or cutting. I am running a yoshifab clutch and flywheel with an older t5 adapter plate with the stock steel front bearing cover.

By far the best clutch feel I have ever had with the t5.

Are you running the 235mm Yoshi clutch? I have that clutch and I'm sourcing hydraulic clutch parts now. If you have the 235mm flywheel and pressure plate and it's nice and light, maybe I'll go with the Tilton bearing instead of the 740 slave cylinder like I'd planned.


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