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EV turbobrick - the turbobrick way?

That's a sensorless 3-phase motor. You want an ebay "brushless dc motor 3 phase hall", the hall sensor being the key difference. The hall sensors tell the motor controller chip what position the rotor is in so that the chip can drive the next phase correctly at low speeds. A sensorless chip steps through the phases blindly until it (hopefully) spins up the motor enough so that it's generating voltage on the un-driven pin (back EMF). It works OK if you never need to run efficiently at very low speeds.

Thank you for descriptions in such simple language -- it encourages experimentation, which I previously hadn't considered in any significant way.

Here's a similar small motor - flip through the pictures and there's one that shows the 3 hall sensors on the PCB 40deg apart:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173933567100

To capture those photos for posterity (or at least as long as eBay continues to host them)
s-l1600.jpg

s-l1600.jpg
 
Kkg5B2R.jpg

Here's one example of a 3 tooth trigger you'd put on a sensorless motors shaft for hall switches to monitor. This is another option versus embedding hall switches between the slots or in the teeth themselves.​
 
mikep just let me know when you want one.

hx 40, bobxyz: that is the motor I have right now. If adding hall sensor stuff is as easy as hx 40 hinted at, I would like to go that way as everything is exposed in this motor. It makes it easier for someone like me understand what is going on. From what I gather, with the hall thingie it would behave the same as, say, a Honda Insight motor. So, the MC33035 could be used to control it. I need to order the other components though, and then have a raspberry pi or even arduino control it so I can get experience without spending too much money or space. hx 40 mentioned (and I think the datasheet supported him) it can control higher voltage/current motor by having it control the components which will connect directly to the motor; we will cross that bridge when we get there.

Swedishbrick, something you may want to consider is weight:
- The B230 should weight 150Kg (~330lb) with the accessories (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=135613)
- An AW71 weights some 68-70Kg (~150lb) (https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=724344&show_all=1). For comparison the Lexus transmission is another 50lb heavier.
- 14 gallons of fuel weights 40Kg (~90lb)
So, for an automagic RWD Volvo, you have 260Kg to play with without affecting handling. If you can find batteries and an Ev powertrain that weights about that, your Volvo will not know any better. Of course the reality is the batteries will add more to have some reasonable range.

For reference
- Insight (hybrid)
  • batteries : 30kg (65lb)
  • Motor 19.6kg (43.5lb)
  • Engine 108 kg (238lb) dry
  • Transmission something kg
- Nissan leaf (Ev)
  • batteries : 300 kg (661lb)
  • Motor 58kg (128lb)

Which leads to: I was reading about the different kinds of batteries and they all have their issues and features. If anyone with more experience can correct me, please do.
- NiMH has memory does not have the power density of Lithium but can be reconditioned to last almost as long as a lead acid.
- Lithiums cannot be reconditioned, and their manufacturers give like a year warranty at most. And yet Tesla/Leaf cars have been out in the wild for a while and their batteries do not go bad after a year.
 
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mikep just let me know when you want one.

hx 40, bobxyz: that is the motor I have right now. If adding hall sensor stuff is as easy as hx 40 hinted at, I would like to go that way as everything is exposed in this motor. It makes it easier for someone like me understand what is going on. From what I gather, with the hall thingie it would behave the same as, say, a Honda Insight motor. So, the MC33035 could be used to control it. I need to order the other components though, and then have a raspberry pi or even arduino control it so I can get experience without spending too much money or space. hx 40 mentioned (and I think the datasheet supported him) it can control higher voltage/current motor by having it control the components which will connect directly to the motor; we will cross that bridge when we get there.

Swedishbrick, something you may want to consider is weight:
- The B230 should weight 150Kg (~330lb) with the accessories (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=135613)
- An AW71 weights some 68-70Kg (~150lb) (https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=724344&show_all=1). For comparison the Lexus transmission is another 50lb heavier.
- 14 gallons of fuel weights 40Kg (~90lb)
So, for an automagic RWD Volvo, you have 260Kg to play with without affecting handling. If you can find batteries and an Ev powertrain that weights about that, your Volvo will not know any better. Of course the reality is the batteries will add more to have some reasonable range.

For reference
- Insight (hybrid)
  • batteries : 30kg (65lb)
  • Motor 19.6kg (43.5lb)
  • Engine 108 kg (238lb) dry
  • Transmission something kg
- Nissan leaf (Ev)
  • batteries : 300 kg (661lb)
  • Motor 58kg (128lb)

Which leads to: I was reading about the different kinds of batteries and they all have their issues and features. If anyone with more experience can correct me, please do.
- NiMH has memory does not have the power density of Lithium but can be reconditioned to last almost as long as a lead acid.
- Lithiums cannot be reconditioned, and their manufacturers give like a year warranty at most. And yet Tesla/Leaf cars have been out in the wild for a while and their batteries do not go bad after a year.



Of course its that eazy unless you think they guy on the video placing the hall in the slot and his scope are secretly working with me to create a ruse for the phone world. :-P You should build the 30 kw drive since the schematics and pcb templates are already available. There's no reason to quest this for such a small reward. I can send you a small motor with the hall sensor already in it, but to build a drive for something this when u can come off the shelf at about 5-10 dollars for a sensorless inverter that will drive it and likely be much smaller than what you build because even the SMT version of the Motorola IC would be much larger than most pico packages. Like you'd find in a hard drive for instance.. If you still quest for this small motor make the drive modular where u have a logic side then the bridge. If you do it correctly the logic board can run different bridges.

Lithium polymer has the most power density of the 3 you listed but are the most volatile. NiMH will give you the most recharge cycles. Lithium Ion is your best medium for power density, stability and charge cycles. This is the reason a good charger and cell balancing array is important. You also do not let LiPo or LiFe run below about 3.4 volts per cell. If you want to help the batteries store them on a charger that cycle them and add a low voltage cutoff or indication so you will know when it needs charging.

I have a pile of hard drive and printer sensor less BLDC. I even have a Axial machine from Sony. Many of them have halls setups already implemented. If you decide you want to focus on just the drive I can send u one of them with halls already setup in it for nothing.

Too bad the EV world cant afford silver oxide.



Regards,
HK
 
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fjPddap.jpg

I plan to use these to power a 120v audio system power supply.
You need to build or add a decent BALANCED charger to your price list.

tLUI6zK.png


Seems to me one could wire 5.5 v 1 farad supercaps between the + and - terminals. I haven't done it yet but I see no reason it shouldn't work as long as the balance circuitry that supports it is designed correctly. If you dont like that then consider a large bulk of electrolytic and then compliment them with smaller MLCC between their legs to handle fast transients.


Regards,
Hubert
 
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arubkkF.png



Another interesting warp 9 build that's delivering real performance. An alternative way to spend 5 racks. The mill work looks damn fun to me. Certainly someone like Roger can pull it off the TB way... The motors and the brushed drives would sit at around 6 grand. The Motorola IC will drive brushed motors as well. As originally stated a very useful and versatile IC. :) You'd need no integration with an ecu as the transmission will still use the speedo and the tach can come directly from a 1 tooth trigger and hall switch. The inverter chip should easily integrate with DBW throttle from a modern Volvo. How people deny such simplicity and cost is beyond me.

https://newatlas.com/sri-electric-off-road-racer/26242/
 
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^ A 60 mile range from 2 ton battery pack at speed then recharged by a Perkins diesel generator, this article just highlights the range problem of EV's.

To answer the "refueling" question, SRI has developed a trailer mounted and solar charging system. This mobile system achieves a five hour full recharge for both battery packs during races via a Perkins Diesel generator. When race ready recharging is not required, a solar system can be drawn upon to provide battery power.
 
^ A 60 mile range from 2 ton battery pack at speed then recharged by a Perkins diesel generator, this article just highlights the range problem of EV's.


A problem that will not be fixed with the budget available here. That part is obvious. Choose something one or the other. High efficiency comes at high cost. Better materials, batteries, motor design, etc. cost more money. Its pretty simple. It should be clear that the JY wont bring the incredible savings initially thought in this quest. The retrofitting of complete drivetrains from other vehicle is also really time consuming and they also cost significant coin in comparison. It will continue to return to cost concerns no matter how you slice it. If you have 100k to spend then 300 miles of range isn't much of an issue.

Lipos are lighter and produce more current but are volitile so it take very little to ruin them or set them a flame. So now you look at buying the high ass batteries twice!!!! It was stated long ago that if you didn't have 10-20k just to get started that no real ev would be possible and this thread has offered nothing that says otherwise. An "e" assist is just that it helps an IC motor reduce its gas consumption and possibly increase its range. The IC motor is the diesel generator like the term "SG" ( stator/generator) suggest but its also the true facilitator of the range since without the e assist most modern IC can still do 300-600 miles range on one tank of gasoline. If one is not going to build anything themselves or amend the cheaper tech available at their budget they certainly wont reduce the cost of high efficiency which brings the range.....

Right back at the importance of 100% versus 80% efficiency in an EV....an endless loop u will not get around with EV's even with a "TB way".

Ask yourself how critical is a highly efficient motor in an ev's range? I say its pretty damn important.
 
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Ev West worked on the project and the one Tesla S power unit they sell at 12,000.00 is more than the two warp 9 units they sell. They have it all at there hands yet they chose this. They say they are working on gearing tweaks to improve its range but that range you spoke of is at 125 mph with zero coasting I'm almost sure. This runs on a baja course not a commuter highway with much less drag current demands etc.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/prod...d=476&osCsid=bf0665f4d963868c9f1c352dbaf65987
 
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Ev West worked on the project and the one Tesla S power unit they sell at 12,000.00 is more than the two warp 9 units they sell. They have it all at there hands yet they chose this. They say they are working on gearing tweaks to improve its range but that range you spoke of is at 125 mph with zero coasting I'm almost sure. This runs on a baja course not a commuter highway with much less drag current demands etc.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/prod...d=476&osCsid=bf0665f4d963868c9f1c352dbaf65987

You know that the 11.9k price tag of the tesla unit includes the inverter, gear box, dash display and control unit (EV Controls), throttle pedal, throttle pedal plug and pins, brake switch, brake switch plug and pins, encoder plug and pins, inverter plug and pins, axle clips, 2 axles, pre-charge relay, and pre-charge resistor. All that is left is to make your subframe to hold it, deal with cooling, and build a battery pack. Throw in an AEM piggyback black box and pump the power.

Those warp 9's would require speed controller, gear box, dash display and control unit (EV Controls), throttle pedal, throttle pedal plug and pins, brake switch, brake switch plug and pins, axle clips, 2 axles, pre-charge relay, and pre-charge resistor. Not to mention that EV West doesnt carry warps anymore. They've moved on the the hyper series from Netgain.

The new netgain hyper 9 (including a 120v controller) x2 would be 9k, then you still need instrumentation, mounting, coupling, misc bits and bobs. Not to mention that you're still looking at peak shaft torque of less than 200ftlbs :rofl:
 
Yeah and I also realize a person can use their existing gear box with such a setup and that a warp 9 definitely does not need any of what you mentioned to run mated to a RWD gearbox .. Who has to purchase NEW net gain warp 9s at 4500 each as two warp 9s from jegs take him into the 10s and will run a bit over 5K. Add the controllers they are around 300.00 a piece so its right at 6 grand like said.

How many ft pounds is the 32kw 48 volt e assist again? but its examined here so I dont follow that metric anyway. And none of this is cheap so how will you reduce the cost of the TB way to actually build something?? To sit here and argue when its clear whats cheaper and simpler u do that . Bolts and bits surely take the warp 9 over budget even though he actually needs axles and all the other **** for the type s unit which buy the way incorporates alot of the motor tech Ive shared here....

9 grand for 2 motors 11 for 1 and I need axles and and i have to make it fit, HMMM wat to do....

Wats easier to mount in a RW volvo....


tesla-model-s-drive-unit-complete-ready-to-run-2.jpg


^^^^This which require independent rear axles^^^^

arubkkF.png


^^^^Or this that requires a bell housing adapter made in a similar fashion that mount directly to a RWD gearbox? Wtf would he get invoved with independent half axles with a brick if he on a budget :oops:

Its really simple. EV west didn't use the tesla unit in the race truck and has access to both. Argue with the Tech companies and capitalist that run them....​


The new netgain hyper 9 (including a 120v controller) x2 would be 9k, then you still need instrumentation, mounting, coupling, misc bits and bobs. Not to mention that you're still looking at peak shaft torque of less than 200ftlbs :rofl:

I also realize because I read that the two motor torque is actually 750 ft/lbs. at 535 hp You need to do your homework versus looking to argue all the time. :rofl: If you know the torque profile of the two machines then you know the induction machine hardly has its pullout torque. This is why you will see series wound DC machines in drag cars and not induction motors. This is also the reason e fork lifts don them. The induction machine is attractive for mass production because it has no rare earth making it cheaper and safer to produce in mass quantities. Is it a better motor than the prius vspoke IPM? IMHO No not really..... and it takes a lot of tech ive shared with you to get the induction machine to be competitive with rare earth machines. This is where the higher cost come in.

dBPX3wf.png


The ludicrous p100 only shows 687 ft lbs sir and Tesla has been sued for lying about their power before about the ludicrous p85 suppose to have 691 hp but on the dyno it was 20% less which is 553hp and they had to settle the lawsuit with 126 Norwegian owners dec 2016. :-P
 
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G27g0Ox.png

Can you tell me and the forum what were looking at here CD? I know you're on top of motor design. So you can tell me wat this is used for? How do you use it to raise the efficiency and ease the production of a PMAC or BLDC machine that are much more power dense than any Induction or SRM motor. Since I know you know...Lets talk about motor production and the various difficulties encountered.​


TIA
Hubert
 
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EV West and the company that built that baja truggy used those because they were taking up shelf space at EV West. Not because they were efficient, powerful, or reliable. It was a matter of initial cost and warehouse space. The motors weren't making any monies sitting on a shelf. That's how resellers like EV West work. They sell customers on what they can't move elsewhere. A customer that doesn't know what they want or need, and just says "I want XXX horsepower for $$$$" gets the motors that have sat on the shelf for years and are taking up space and will require frequent servicing, not a machine that puts down the same numbers over and over for 100k miles without an oil change, and without fear of insulation breakdown, or changing brushes. There's a reason nobody brings a brushed DC motor to SEMA.

There are good reasons that forklifts use them. But just like the automotive industry, Toyota doesn't look at a forklift design and say "that"s a money maker right there", they say "ok, great idea, now re-design it to require $$$/year of service so we can actually make money", no dealer will sell units that they cant sell service for. Initial sales margin is tiny compared to service margins. Those motor do produce solid amounts of torque to a degree for a given voltage and amperage, and at those levels they are adequate for the purpose, but long term at high voltage and high current kills them pretty fast.

I'd love to see an M47 take that *750* ftlbs of torque. That'd be fun. I'd also like to see hub dyno graphs of those warp 9s. Motors are one thing but your missing the fact that you need to get that power through a geartrain. 90% of gearboxes are designed to see and cope with peak torque for a fractions of seconds, if that. That tesla unit is designed and capable of holding that torque for minutes-hours continuous.

Also, the EV west tesla unit comes with axles that fit into many different subframes, or hell, spend another few hundred and get the tesla subframe. If you're going to get into a EV conversion of any kind, you should probably know how to weld (or know a guy who works for beer) and you should probably have a good understanding of chassis dynamics and where to put your weight, and how to work your geometry in your favor. Personally, modifying a chassis (that you already have) to accept a 4 bolt subframe that already has all of its geometry worked out seems like a no brainer. The benefits outweigh the hack jobbery of producing a stick axle EV with a grenade sitting 6 inches from your R knee.

Its obvious that you have a very narrow scope here, and have never actually built a car or conversion of any sort.
 
EV West and the company that built that baja truggy used those because they were taking up shelf space at EV West. Not because they were efficient, powerful, or reliable. It was a matter of initial cost and warehouse space. The motors weren't making any monies sitting on a shelf. That's how resellers like EV West work. They sell customers on what they can't move elsewhere. A customer that doesn't know what they want or need, and just says "I want XXX horsepower for $$$$" gets the motors that have sat on the shelf for years and are taking up space and will require frequent servicing, not a machine that puts down the same numbers over and over for 100k miles without an oil change, and without fear of insulation breakdown, or changing brushes. There's a reason nobody brings a brushed DC motor to SEMA.

There are good reasons that forklifts use them. But just like the automotive industry, Toyota doesn't look at a forklift design and say "that"s a money maker right there", they say "ok, great idea, now re-design it to require $$$/year of service so we can actually make money", no dealer will sell units that they cant sell service for. Initial sales margin is tiny compared to service margins. Those motor do produce solid amounts of torque to a degree for a given voltage and amperage, and at those levels they are adequate for the purpose, but long term at high voltage and high current kills them pretty fast.

I'd love to see an M47 take that *750* ftlbs of torque. That'd be fun. I'd also like to see hub dyno graphs of those warp 9s. Motors are one thing but your missing the fact that you need to get that power through a geartrain. 90% of gearboxes are designed to see and cope with peak torque for a fractions of seconds, if that. That tesla unit is designed and capable of holding that torque for minutes-hours continuous.

Also, the EV west tesla unit comes with axles that fit into many different subframes, or hell, spend another few hundred and get the tesla subframe. If you're going to get into a EV conversion of any kind, you should probably know how to weld (or know a guy who works for beer) and you should probably have a good understanding of chassis dynamics and where to put your weight, and how to work your geometry in your favor. Personally, modifying a chassis (that you already have) to accept a 4 bolt subframe that already has all of its geometry worked out seems like a no brainer. The benefits outweigh the hack jobbery of producing a stick axle EV with a grenade sitting 6 inches from your R knee.

Its obvious that you have a very narrow scope here, and have never actually built a car or conversion of any sort.


Who said it had to be an M47 since we already accommodated to swap a better gear box in a RWD volvo. No real guess work there and RWD volvos owners are very familiar with those swaps

Your numbers were still wrong but then it comes to what an M47 can do with 750 foot pound which was 225 according to you. At your metric ...You have even a narrower scope about inverters and motor design because you've never designed or built one of them. You dont even know how to wind one. Uve assembled someone else creations and a robot program by engineers did the windings. I asked you what this is in the photo but your answer was how many foot pounds a warp 9 made....

Arguments wont make the price go down. "EV west used the warps cos they needed to get them off the shelf.' Okay but You see more warp conversions than youll see teslas in RWD cars. So evidently your ev experience doesn't span very far outside of what Cascadia does. No company that knew an article would be written highlighting their work would supply the user with their "trash".

I will share with you what you are looking at because you still provided no answer about the motor design tool. Here's a hint its a very useful tool for the manufacture of motors using rare earth. Right now you are here specifically making statement about two potential motors for the power in an EV. The numbers you stated for the two warps is already incorrect by about 500 ft pounds sir.

G27g0Ox.png

So take another shot at what it is.​

Companies use series wound motor in fork lifts for the same reason companies use them for starting large engines. THE PULLOUT TORQUE. The starter in ya car is a series wound brushed motor sir put there for just that reason. Nothing done here in any regard will end up at SEMA.
 
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viNpwLY.png

This is a 2 shot magnetizer . U magnetize the rare earth AFTER assembly. The rotor index wheel is the pole discriminator. This is also useful for segmented pm sections which localizes eddy current in the pm structure or rotors magnets if you will. This is also the way to make assembly of a large PMAC or BLDC . You build a rig like like this then you dont have to run pm less induction machines because you can build PMAC or BLDC safely now. That has more power and torque density than a IM or SRM. Ill put a bldc the size of a warp 9 up against any telsa s powerplant.​
 
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I haven't kept up with this thread but, as a point of reference, this showed up on the local craigslist yesterday:

Netgain WarP 9 DC Motor for Electric Vehicle (EV) - $200 (Longmont CO)
https://boulder.craigslist.org/pts/d/longmont-netgain-warp-dc-motor-for/7351224470.html
00t0t_abMvMX3tyjTz_0CI0lM_600x450.jpg

I bought this from EVWest, a professional electric car converter. It was used and I planned to put it into my project but the project went a different direction and now I want to get rid of it.

I spent about $650 on it. If interested, hit me up. I also have a mean Motor Controller that I'm selling: a Zilla 1K.
 
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