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EV turbobrick - the turbobrick way?

Swedbrick said:
Theoretical benchrace budget let's say 2-3k including some Chevy volt batteries, or a DIY laptop battery pack.
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Oh, that's not much of a budget. A LS swap is much more, and that's _just_ an engine swap.

Adding an e-Alternator seems like it might work, and would give better acceleration from standstill. What sort of Hybrids are showing up in your local salvage yards these days, and do any of them have anything somewhat bolt-on?

I haven't kept up with the production Hybrids -- it would be great if one of them (probably an AWD) had a usable electric motor built into the rear axle/differential that you might be able to use for a RWD Brick (still Hybrid).

Whatever you do, I'm guessing that you'll need a new aftermarket motor controller (think MegaSquirt for electric motors), unless someone knows of good tuning package and/or hacked production controller??? That's hundreds, or more, of your budget.
 
bobxyz said:
I haven't kept up with the production Hybrids -- it would be great if one of them (probably an AWD) had a usable electric motor built into the rear axle/differential that you might be able to use for a RWD Brick (still Hybrid).
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Toyota Highlander had one in the rear but I think (it was a school a long while back) the front hybrid system was like a prius but v6, the rear was electric-only.
 
The bigger hybrid GM SUVs used a very nice Remy electric motor. That’s getting into the power levels to move along a brick well enough (150 peak HP I think?).

Using an automatic without a torque converter would go a long way into extending the operating/speed range, as well as extending the battery run time.

I’m waiting for cwdodson88 to come in here and tell us where all the cheap e-motors and controllers are :)
I know the company he works for sells AEM interfaces, and I assume they work with their controllers.
 
mikep said:
Toyota Highlander had one in the rear but I think (it was a school a long while back) the front hybrid system was like a prius but v6, the rear was electric-only.
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There?s currently a small company working on integrating a small ~15hp brushless DC motor into the drive lines of pickups. Just enough to give a nice boost of passing power and recover some energy when braking.
 
bobxyz said:
Oh, that's not much of a budget. A LS swap is much more, and that's _just_ an engine swap.
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Yes that is true, that why I'm wondering if there would be some way to affordably hybrid with something OEM. A full EV conversion is expensive, and you might as well get a Nissan leaf for the price with reliability included.

bobxyz said:
Adding an e-Alternator seems like it might work, and would give better acceleration from standstill. What sort of Hybrids are showing up in your local salvage yards these days, and do any of them have anything somewhat bolt-on?
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Most have the stuff included in the gearbox in some way, which makes the e-alternator such a nice option. I've also seen rear differentials with the motor included, which might work with a irs Volvo. As far as I'm aware BMW and Volvo are some of the few who still have 4wd hybrids with a driveshaft, most just go fwd, with a hybrid drivetrain in the back

bobxyz said:
Whatever you do, I'm guessing that you'll need a new aftermarket motor controller (think MegaSquirt for electric motors), unless someone knows of good tuning package and/or hacked production controller??? That's hundreds, or more, of your budget.
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Most motors appear to have 3-fase designs, so hopefully those controllers are somewhat universal. If torque from standstill is required it will need to know the orientation, to get the phasing of the motor correct, which might cause some compatibility issues
 
The new t8 Volvos have a complete electric rear axle. Its actually quite marvelous. I believe the motor is around 100 hp with 300 ft/lb of torque. When you have the car in electric only mode, its got plenty of grunt to have fun. 100 hp... and lots of torque. seems like it would be right at home in a 240.
 
culberro said:
The bigger hybrid GM SUVs used a very nice Remy electric motor. That’s getting into the power levels to move along a brick well enough (150 peak HP I think?).

Using an automatic without a torque converter would go a long way into extending the operating/speed range, as well as extending the battery run time.

I’m waiting for cwdodson88 to come in here and tell us where all the cheap e-motors and controllers are :)
I know the company he works for sells AEM interfaces, and I assume they work with their controllers.
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Going to have to define cheap :rofl:

Borg Warner (Remy/PDS Anderson) motors are tits for efficiency if you can keep them cool. They're also insanely power dense. 160# motors that easily break the 400hp mark. Now, from PDS there are a few off the shelf flavors, only downside, they are drysump or oil flooded. So you need to work out oil res, pumps, and cooling. Cascadia offers a self contained system that integrates oil pump, cooler, wet sump, so all you need is the end heat exchanger to cool your water and an electric water pump, you'd need this anyway to cool a decently power dense inverter/controller of any sort.

AEM interface - ouch, thats a spicy meatball. They're absolutely awesome, and look great, but that comes with a cost. Be prepared for a VCU, PDM, and Dash to set you back 5-9K.

The Cascadia stuff will run of simple analog, as well as CAN command logic controllers. Great for hybridizing your MS3 powered whatever. Set up an N02 table or boost by gear table to deliver a 0-5v output, run that to the VSM Analog inputs, and now you have MS controlling a 'Torque table" based off your ICE's current state. Talking to both controllers with a PiDash and some fancy DBC integration, and you can get realtime viewing/logging of both the e-motor controller, and your ICE. I have some plans for this in the near future with a TTR hybrid 1st gen Honda

Just did some costing for a friend who wants to do an Austin Healey, aiming for low budget, 200mi range, and similar to stock hp... well ok, I wouldn't put less than 300hp in that car if I were to do it :-P

Motor: AC motor with integrated oil handling, 300kw output. ~9k
Inverter: 3 phase water cooled, capable of 150kw continuous 300kw peak ~3k
Battery/BMS/Charging: Tesla Model3 modules, ~100kwh to leave you with enough overhead for that "Oh sh!t" moment when you find your self in BF nowhere and have to limp to a plug in. That'll run in the neighborhood of 12-15k.. all prices are in USD :lol:

To try to do a conversion under 20k, you have to either pull the range back to 60 miles or drop the power down a lot. Personally, I would find a used Leaf. Buy a motor and inverter for about 11-12k and you have a 24-35kwh pack/charger/bms, a setup that will put down ~350hp all day, since the motors we are talking about "Knee" at about 6krpm, you dont need a multispeed gearbox, and can get away with a "2nd gear" plus final drive.

So say the Volvo second is like 2.35:1 and 3.73:1 rear diff, you could run a 6-7:1 edrive gearbox that would make the car feel like its in second gear all the time up to the "knee" where your torque taper begins.

We have also just released a pretty cool (Not shiny billet, but still cool) combination unit. It offers 700nm of tq on the shaft and huge rev range with a high knee speed. These are running about 11k, fully self contained, just plug in DC and a water radiator and go. This unit is being paired with some proto gearboxes, as well as off the shelf boxes, offering ratios from ~2:1 to 8.3:1.
 
^^^ Thanks! That's great info - I'll need to spend some time looking up those parts. I guess an e-conversion on a TBricks budget, or most anyone's budget, is out of the question at this time. Do you know if there are Federal/State tax credits available for hobbyist conversions (full electric) that could reduce the costs significantly?
 
bobxyz said:
^^^ Thanks! That's great info - I'll need to spend some time looking up those parts. I guess an e-conversion on a TBricks budget, or most anyone's budget, is out of the question at this time. Do you know if there are Federal/State tax credits available for hobbyist conversions (full electric) that could reduce the costs significantly?
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As far as I know, there are not, but its worth doing some more research on.

For a conversion, it really just comes down to the pack. If you really needed to keep the budget down, just upgrading the inverter is a huge gain for most setups. Using salvage parts for the motor, gearbox, and battery could save money, and if you want more power, typically OEM stuff is only inverter limited. There are battery limits as well, but they generally are well above the inverter limits.

For motor selection, synchronus AC motors are very "tuneable" so upgrading the inverter can increase power output/throughput by a significant amount with the right amount of homework.
 
Thanks for all the info, sounds like my guesstimate budget was pretty far off. In terms of hybridization, the e-alternator seems to still somewhat fit the bill with a small power pack requirement, and the belt probably being more limiting than the inverter in that scenario. Possibly adding a blower belt could be a workaround, although I suspect the thing to get hot quick, given the small coolant lines.

I found this one online for some better pictures, it appears to have the inverter and controller integrated as well in the unit, just requiring a 48V input from the battery:
http://mbspecialist.com/mercedes_webcatalog/item/2649001100B01/

The later cars appear to have moved to this unit in the bellhousing, which might offer slightly more power:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntqukRvIMzA
 
Swedbrick said:
Thanks for all the info, sounds like my guesstimate budget was pretty far off. In terms of hybridization, the e-alternator seems to still somewhat fit the bill with a small power pack requirement, and the belt probably being more limiting than the inverter in that scenario. Possibly adding a blower belt could be a workaround, although I suspect the thing to get hot quick, given the small coolant lines.

I found this one online for some better pictures, it appears to have the inverter and controller integrated as well in the unit, just requiring a 48V input from the battery:
http://mbspecialist.com/mercedes_webcatalog/item/2649001100B01/

The later cars appear to have moved to this unit in the bellhousing, which might offer slightly more power:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntqukRvIMzA
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You'd be surprised at how well they can be cooled. Using a 10 row oil cooler with water in it, 5/8" lines, and a bosch itty bitty pump, we've been able to keep a 146mm 48v motor cool running it at 350v and 60-80nm load for 10 minutes constant at like 10krpm shaft speed. So 50% torque at 50% shaft speed, and more than twice as long as you'd push something like that in the real world.

The thing about them is that they cool off really quickly whens unloaded, and op temp is right around engine bay ambient, 160-195F. Now if you can find one, or make one that is oil cooled... that would keep it way more stable, but requires some dissection, and properly orientated drilling.

The other option is to go non driven wheel. So a TTR (through the road) style hybrid. You dont need a large pack, or a large motor, or super powerful inverter, just a bump for tip in when you need to pass, or just a pulse/coast when cruising to maintain speed in an area where your ICE can be leaned way out for extra MPGs. Also, gain some control over brake bias and charge the pack up under braking.
 
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And on the plus side of performace, that 48v system could also be pulled in to an e-turbo as well. Shared DC bus, and an e-turbo, and you could effectively gain in all areas. That being range, horsepower, fuel economy, and the steady hard pull of huge displacement out of a tiny little engine.
 
That's pretty neat, that is sounding pretty doable. Are there any e-turbos available on the aftermarket already? I mostly ran into Garrett OEM parts, or descriptions of what they could offer.
 
Swedbrick said:
That's pretty neat, that is sounding pretty doable. Are there any e-turbos available on the aftermarket already? I mostly ran into Garrett OEM parts, or descriptions of what they could offer.
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BW has some involvement as well in the OEMs, but I do not believe there is a consumer retail variety yet. I can say that there are several European cargo vans equipped with e-turbos, but I do not have a list of exact year/make/model.
 
hk 40 said:
Now that they are at a real budget your should consider the fact that You are an engineering student and can use your professional professors to help you. The academics can certainly get you there and may have some financial support for such DIY projects
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I've actually already competed in a hydrogen car project previously, and am in the process of graduating, so starting a new team or project is out of my interest. I might end up buiding a motor at some point, but for now I'll take a quick and dirty first attempt. The first year of our hydrogen car also used cheap chinese hub motors and drivers for the first iteration and evolved to custom motors and GaN drivers over the years:)

cwdodson88 said:
BW has some involvement as well in the OEMs, but I do not believe there is a consumer retail variety yet. I can say that there are several European cargo vans equipped with e-turbos, but I do not have a list of exact year/make/model.
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Thats pretty rad, I didn't know those were in production yet in europe. I used to drive a lot of cargo vans for work, and the powerband on small displacement turbo diesels would probably greatly benefit, 500rpm of torque and power doesn't haul cargo well.
 
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