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Has anyone ever had luck with the Grey motorcraft TFI

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hk 40 said:
Wow 7oo hundred views of the TFI with only Culberro's kind input. Is Culberro the only other one currently on board that has worked with or even looked at other ignitions outside the EZK and dumb ignitors?

Stellar !​

Regards
Hubert
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No, but this is a Volvo board not a Ford forum. A lot of people use the modern upgrade of 4 LS coils when going to a stand alone or just an MSD box when keeping a factory style ignition. No need to be a pompous ass about things.
 
bobxyz said:
</ramble on>
Let's try this again. Here's a link to a ~2003 Bosch ignition modules doc:
www.pim-engineering.com/tiedostot/ignitionmodules.pdf

My read of this [aka good guess] is that there were 3 types of ignition modules at the time (ignoring the number channels):
1) Inductive Trigger (aka +/- AC sine wave) with dwell control
2a) Hall Trigger (aka + DC squarewave) with dwell control, shared sensor and coil power
2b) Hall Trigger (aka + DC squarewave) with dwell control, separate sensor and coil power
3) ECU Trigger (aka + DC squarewave), no dwell control

An Inductive Trigger, or VR trigger, generates a + or - voltage pulse at each edge of the distributor flag/tooth. The pulses are roughly half sinewave in shape. For discussion, say that a positive voltage pulse is generated at the beginning of the distributor flag, and a negative voltage pulse at the end of the flag.

A Hall Trigger generates a + voltage square wave. For discussion, say that it's ~0volts when the flag is not in front of the sensor, and ~11volts, or maybe 5volts, when the flag is in front of the sensor.

If you sketch out the Trigger signals, or view them on an oscilloscope, you'll see that they're much different. You need to match the type of the module to your trigger signal - Hall&DC or Inductive&AC. Do you know what your trigger signal looks like?

For modules with dwell control, the positive pulse or rising edge of the trigger signal starts to charge the coil. The dwell control circuits may delay charging from this starting pulse/edge as needed. The negative pulse or falling edge of the trigger signal then fires the spark.

If you understand this so far, you'll realize that a Hall module with dwell control can also be used with an ECU that controls dwell. In this case, the module starts to charge immediately without any delay on the rising ECU signal. An inductive AC trigger module won't work due to the DC/square wave from the ECU.

The next issue is what the ECU spark signal looks like when using multiple coils. If the positive pulse width stays the same, but the low time ~doubles, then modules with dwell control should work fine. The time the module needs to delay before starting to charge the coil stays the same.

If the pulse width doubles when changing to multi-coil mode, then modules with dwell control may have problems at low speeds. In this case, the time the module needs to delay before starting to charge the coil becomes much longer.

Do you know what the spark output from your ECU looks like in single coil mode and what it looks like in multi-coil mode? Does the ECU allow any configuration of the spark outputs other than number of coils?
-Bob
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Thank you for that link .

All the hall ignition options appear to be 1 channel so for wasted spark two would have to be used with double ended coil packs on two of the ECU 4 ignition outputs to be price practical. The ambiguity comes in when Bosch specifies MEC 717 or MEC718 for those modules. Does that mean they are the only coils they are compatible with? That would make this impractical for independent 4 cylinder ignition control. It means it would require 4 of these single channel ignition modules and four individual coils. The other issue is of the three the 137 uses one more pin and is the only one that crosses with the 008. I think if a good 4 channel CDI was available for 400 that would be great. It may be more practical in that case to run a 4 channel CDI with the "LS" coils packs.

I guess its a plain azz that thinks this is some Chevy forum. He should get the FT, T6, and 3.2 V8, motors like me and the rest of the true Volvo club members here that have some money to build the motors and get off that junkyard LS dic..​

Thanks bobxyz.

Regards,
Hubert
 
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You should check out an M&W pro-14. Slightly more than $400, but it seems like it might be what you're after. I have seen a few used units get down to the $500 mark.
 
RvolvoR said:
You should check out an M&W pro-14. Slightly more than $400, but it seems like it might be what you're after. I have seen a few used units get down to the $500 mark.
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Thanks for that.
I don't know much about them, but thought maybe they were a better performer than a MSD DIS4 which I dont know that much about either to be quite honest.

Regards
Hubert
 
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hk 40 said:
Thanks for that.
I don't know much about them, but thought maybe they were a better performer than a MSD DIS4 which I dont know that much about either to be quite honest.

Regards
Hubert
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They are quite as popular these days as most choose to go with IGN1A coils for high end racing applications now, but M&W cdi boxes used to be the go to for import drag and circuit racing 10-15 years ago. Think about 4 cylinder hondas on methanol running 60+ psi.
 
RvolvoR said:
They are quite as popular these days as most choose to go with IGN1A coils for high end racing applications now, but M&W cdi boxes used to be the go to for import drag and circuit racing 10-15 years ago. Think about 4 cylinder hondas on methanol running 60+ psi.
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Wow. What are the IGN1A coils ? Please elaborate.

Regards
Hubert
 
This will help on the Ford heat soaking. I was the guinea pig for the 94-95 style module when I did my v8 swap. Nice heat sink and allows remote mounting in a cooler location. I never had an issue. I think the Aerostar and Econolines had the remote mounted module. Ford got into some trouble over the failed modules back in the day. And it used to be that the Motorcraft was superior in quality. Not so much anymore.
http://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/index_files/tfikits.htm
 
PeaceEngineered said:
This will help on the Ford heat soaking. I was the guinea pig for the 94-95 style module when I did my v8 swap. Nice heat sink and allows remote mounting in a cooler location. I never had an issue. I think the Aerostar and Econolines had the remote mounted module. Ford got into some trouble over the failed modules back in the day. And it used to be that the Motorcraft was superior in quality. Not so much anymore.
http://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/index_files/tfikits.htm
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Well this is all something if you think about it. I take it you may be interested to see what the remote ford units would do as make shift coil on plug drivers in the brick? Well I'd truly need 4 if I was looking at doing what this thing above supposedly does. But it would be cheaper. I'm rather shocked in some ways IGN1A takes the place of a M&W or other CDI's because all in all it only sports 103 mj :roll:. Huh... the CDR500 , Msd DIS4, and M&W I'm pretty sure all carry more than that. I don't know about +60 pounds but I may wanna break something greater than 22 pounds. I plan water injection. The knock control is important for what I want to do. The ECUs can run up to 8 injectors so I also have 4 unused PWM outputs now to flag with different auxiliary functions. What's interesting about the TFI is I wonder is TFI just a fancy ford moniker for thin film capacitor :oogle: If it is it THAT it should develop some crank and shouldn't be to slow. You gotta keep it cool though. You could liquid cool a sink.

Regards
Hubert
 
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The other thing I wonder is would individual ballast resistors help dissipate the heat issue on the
capacitive modules.

Regards
Hubert.
 
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In theory a thin film capacitor would have some advantage in dc stability over a multi layer ceramic capacitor. These have low electrical series resistance which should pull up some amperes. The low resistance and stability at dc should make it a very strong and consistent spark driver......In theory. Ford which I dont drive has come up with great ideas in the car journey no different from Chevrolet. One thing about Ford. They didn't need a Government bailout like everyone else did. That says something about the way they are doing things. They are better organized financially. That's obvious. Im also almost sure now that if you busted a TFI open that a TFC is in there. What I wonder about in such a beast is its duration ability.​

Regards
Hubert
 
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Ford just had the luck to have borrowed a huge amount of money from private capital before the economic meltdown. once the meltdown happened, no loans like that were available for the other manufacturers.

So really, just a matter of lucky timing, not any real indication that Ford is superior to the others. At least in terms of government loans and ignition electronics.

And FWIW, Ford did take a big loan from the government during the financial collapse, just not through the same channels as the others:
https://www.energy.gov/lpo/portfolio-projects
Scroll down, Ford got 5.9 billion (with a b) on Sep 2009.
 
It was never about SUPERIORITY I never said quite that...:) Its loosely thrown around too much ... but thank you for that information John.

Regards
Hubert
 
If I was spending a lot of money on an ignition system. This is what I'd buy. This was recommended to me by Stealthfti many years ago. Still seems to be a great system. http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

Also from what I've learned here on the board. The Bosch 139 module has dwell control internally and is ecu triggered. They are from Saabs so it keeps with the Swedish car theme. lol.
 
I wish you guys would leave your names so I could thank you properly for you contributions. The issue with 139's is I think they are obsolete if you look at the current BIM line posted from Bosch Motorsports. If you cross it I will probably come back with one of the three hall triggered modules shown. All of them are single channel :roll:. I wonder since a point firing module looks at a saw could a psuedo points trigger be created by the gear tooth's shape. They didn't like the DAC idea but its seems like I could control it there simply by varying the pwm's dc. I heard about the JS but will look at those links promptly. 4 modules would run 180.00 dollars or so but for independent direct fire you now need 4 717's or 718's because I dont know what other coils they would be compatible with. The single coils would drive the price I think and have me looking right back a 4 channel CDI's. With batch firing system that controls dwell this is a bit easier, You dont have independent control but you can use the multi channel dumb modules. This allows EZK and MS to run on dual channel ignition for dless wasted spark. The can use 200's if Im not mistaken there setup is just like this off an EZK or MS with dwell control.

jGgjYAUh.png

​

Thank you.
Hubert
 
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If I had dwell I could use the dual channels igniters this way. Since I don't and all the hall triggered are single channel this is what youd have to do to each plug with one single channel module per....

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It gets ambiguous again because the 124 is listed as a hall module with Bosch but the Autronic notes on this particular ECU ,which has dwell control, detailed in it controls the dwell on this module. bobxyz spoke to this possibility of ecu controlled dwell with SMART modules but it appears they were burning coils up when the depended on internal dwell control. :wtf: For 4 channel independent setup ud have to have four "smart" or self controlled type like 139s, 137s......... and possibly TFI's. See my problem... Its really not making much sense to me they burning up coils if the modules are SMART. Not to mention they aren't even showing a double ended coil thats compatible from Bosch with the hall triggered modules but the original diagram I posted has 008 in wasted spark setups with double ended coils....Its not really want I want but I don't even have a lead on coils that wont fry If I did dual single channel modules with double ended coils.
​

Regards
Hubert
 
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IGN1A smart coil is an interesting DFI concept if it doesn't need its dwell controlled and wont burn up. I also dont know if the ECU outputs need any protection from something like that. 4 of them seems to be close to 400.oo bones. And again is the total spark energy truly there over CDI at 103 mj? I also wonder it the TFI would be nicer to the coils? What are the boost level are people supporting with bosch module driven wasted spark setups ? Thank you dl please leave your name.

Regards
Hubert
 
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The ign1a coils have been used on up to 2500hp V8s on methanol running 60+ psi of boost on twin 88s. I don't know exactly what your end goal is, but I am pretty sure that they will more than cover whatever you are trying to do. Same goes for an M&W box and your flavor of pencil style motorcycle coil. I have personally seen 1400whp on methanol with that setup on 35psi in an Acura 3.2 V6 drag car on the dyno I was operating at the time.
 
Also, smart coils are referring to the coils having inbuilt ignitors, not that they have auto dwell control. Why, in particular, are you worried about the ignitor having auto dwell control? If you are using an ecu worth its salt, then you should be able to set dwell with that.
 
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