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Old 06-18-2022, 12:16 AM   #1
HiSPL
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Default Coolant temp sensor in the middle of the upper hose. What size?

I'm going to mount an Efan while I'm waiting on other parts to arrive.

What is the ID of the upper rad hose? I'm going to get one of those "splice it in the middle of the hose" type temp adaptors.

Unless there's a better option I could be using?
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Old 06-18-2022, 02:16 AM   #2
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1 1/4" ID it seems. Or 31.sumthin MM.

The problem I have now is finding a decent grounding switch. Does anybody have an OEM type switch that you know of? I'd prefer somewhere around 200 on and 180 off.

All the switches I'm finding are either really wacky temp ranges, or are chinese junk switches.
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Old 06-18-2022, 02:48 AM   #3
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ACDelco D1855B

Turns on at 215 ish and off at 200. Sounds high to me, but this is oem for the C4 Corvette. It's the only stock fan grounding switch I've found so far.

What do you think about those temps? I have the 87C/188F thermostat.


*edit* wrong info. This switch turns on at 230. That's a no from me dog....

Last edited by HiSPL; 06-19-2022 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 06-18-2022, 12:12 PM   #4
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You might reconsider and put the sensor at the lower hose, since the fan controls the radiator temp, not the engine coolant exit temp. There's a difference.
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Old 06-18-2022, 12:14 PM   #5
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That is the range for an overheat protection fan. Like if you had a pusher in front of the radiator. I would try to find something like 195F on and 185F off if possible. Or just go with one of the adjustable sensors that fit into the radiator fins. They work fine.
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Old 06-19-2022, 08:28 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
You might reconsider and put the sensor at the lower hose, since the fan controls the radiator temp, not the engine coolant exit temp. There's a difference.
Dave B
That is certainly worth noting.

Do you know what kind of temps are typical for the radiator output?


Here's my plan so far. 940 two speed Efan, with the stock relay pack. Low speed is wye'd into the AC compressor +12v. So it will run when the AC is on. High speed controlled by a thermal switch. 87C thermostat in the head.

I'll most likely run a manual high speed switch into the cabin as well just in case I get stuck in traffic somewhere.

My only real issue is figuring out what temp thermo switch to use and where to put it.



*I'll also add that I'm using the full 940 shroud with the flappy things. I will enclose it around the AC condensor so it fully pulls through both condensor and radiator (no IC, na car) and still has use of the flaps for the highway.

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Old 06-19-2022, 08:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
That is the range for an overheat protection fan. Like if you had a pusher in front of the radiator. I would try to find something like 195F on and 185F off if possible. Or just go with one of the adjustable sensors that fit into the radiator fins. They work fine.
The adjustable style is looking better and better all the time.
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Old 06-19-2022, 09:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiSPL View Post
That is certainly worth noting.
Do you know what kind of temps are typical for the radiator output?
I'm using this site for reference. The optimum seems to be to get the radiator outlet 15 to 20 degrees F below the thermostat temp. So the sensor temp needed will vary depending on your thermostat temp.
https://www.autocoolguy.com/

I agree that something adjustable would be best if using relays to activate the fan. Fine tuning is a plus. If using a fin probe, it can certainly be placed low near the outlet.
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:24 PM   #9
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I use the 82C thermostats year round. It's enough heat and that little bit less temp in the engine seems to help things.
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:29 PM   #10
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When using SAAB adapter in the lower radiator hose the factory switch with 92/87C (197/188F) On/Off setting works well.
Don't see a reason to install it in the upper hose- why turn on the fan before the radiator can do its job?
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Old 06-19-2022, 07:31 PM   #11
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Just for future searches and what not, I ran across this very informative post about coolant switches available at NAPA.

https://www.corral.net/threads/ultim...umbers.915523/
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Old 06-19-2022, 09:10 PM   #12
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Alright, well I made a decision and we'll see how she goes.

I ordered a Derale 16728 Temp switch (on at 180, off at 165) and this generic hose adaptor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

I just can't get on board with the adjustable temp probe either sticking it down a hose, or just cramming it in the radiator fins. I'm sure I would forget about it and rip the capillary tube while doing work on the car. The hose adaptor and screw in probe seems a lot more solid of a solution to me. Even if I have to experiment with temp switches to find the right one.....
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Old 06-19-2022, 09:47 PM   #13
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Long way around the block much?

77-82C Wahler made in W.Germany super quality brass switch that basically never fails off some rando old junkyard pre brazil/mexico VW/Audi 4000/5000 based car ~1977-1995 or the one screwed into the radiator on the CI injection SAABS in the lower hose with a SAAB T & Volvo 1992-1999 E-fan relay. Done.

Or top top of passenger end tank as Volvo did it from the factory with the push-in switch on the 1992+ E-fan regina cars. That more closely approximates what the bi-metallic spring on the front of the fan clutch reads; at what temp is the whole radiator heat soaked/near T-stat temp?

I don't care for electric fans on a DD 240 & only use the Regina temp switch or SAAB T & lower hose switch as backup or for the pusher fan & easier coolant drain if/when I do that, however...

Wish someone repopped the SAAB T in stainless but T down low for drain or if the system loses a little coolant having the fan switch still immersed in coolant as backup/'just in case' is your friend...
Lincoln Mark 8 fan was the hotrodders go-to for primary puller e-fans...I like em? Junkyard/cheap?

People junkyard all that or sell all those parts here in good shape or used to...might have a spare myself... just need some decent wire terminals & pliers/rest to connect the dots...

Pusher fan off the V12 W140 Benzo/similar. Quality. Never fails. Quiet/powerful. Brushes off rando junkyard cars with similar armature Bosch fan or diy & spot solder on your own with your junk drawyer of wire/graphite & springs for .17¢/hr. So much for 'built not bought' round here. TB Gentrification
'This place is really goin' downhill, maaaan'

Short of losing your mind and installing a giant wider radiator appropriate for the e-fan, larger giant alt, and a serp belt setup with enough traction to power the e-fan sufficiently with a variable speed 3-phase brushless e-fan like they do now-a-days...
...kinda long way around the block to shove all that thru the ~50% efficient alt in a large frontal area tractor car with a longitudinal motor, but I digress...
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Old 06-20-2022, 12:04 AM   #14
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Modern problems require modern solutions.

I'm sure in the land of granola and patchouli you can still find Saab coolant Tee's and Mk1 Golf sensors. Around here we don't get vintage anything in the junkyards. It's just full size truck after full size truck....

I wanted to put together modern parts to do what you greybeards figured out 100 years ago.
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Old 06-20-2022, 12:23 AM   #15
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/15187692423...mis&media=COPY

I've been using this for about 3 years with no issues. Keeps my temps under half on the temp gauge at all times with the 940 efan

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Old 06-20-2022, 01:04 AM   #16
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Whatever you decide I'll echo Dave Barton as in the top hose beyond the T-stat in a heat exchanger system isn't exactly logical. We wanna switch on the output side of the radiator on a heat exchange (radiator) system.

Either control it from some location like the ECU coolant temp sensor as the factory does or output side of the heat exchanger, not in the top hose between the T-stat & radiator...that's not likely to control it very well...

Or push-in switch (if your rad takes that style) or screw in switch on the passenger end-tank as the factory did on the E-fan regina cars tho about the lowest temp switch you can get for the regina E-fan cars is 88-92ºC for the push in switch on the rubber bushing as Volvo did with their OEM plastique tanker radiators with that spot for the sensor or plastic plug installed ~86-87+?, I forget?

The way Volvo did it on the regina cars sort of mimics how the bi-metallic spring works to twist the valves in the fan clutch open & shut. Less pro-active, but top of the cold side end tank turns the fan on once the heat exchanger is heat soaked just a little below or approximately at T-stat temp; very logical.

Bottom hose maybe a little wasteful for energy/little lower temp but if you lose half your coolant, it'll probably still gimp home without the sensor being in air, so that's nice? Modern cars if the temp reading gets cooler inexplicably, usually turn the fan on continuous as a fail-safe & throw a code or light/message as well as having a float switch somewhere for a 'coolant loss' warning lamp.
Whether the owner heeds the message(s) (or it's even comprehensible to them?) / pulls off in time or shuts it down in time or not is often another matter?...

On a fleet one mechanic had the bright idea to wire the trucks to shut off (relay kills the coil pack or coil power or ECU FI relay or similar) if the oil pressure switch/sender, coolant level float sensor or one other sensor read low or out of range on something critical. People would cuss out the work truck crapping out/stalling (the smarter of them would open the hood & find the coolant low or no oil on the stick after beating the hell out of the truck or something)...might be hairy mid-intersection or with a wiring fault?, but it saved a lot of money/thousands for in-house maintenance in replacing/rebuilding engines & no one got hurt so far? Bad Old days/low tech solutions... Trucks did small circles/smaller excavation company that kept the old beater trucks a long time/didn't mind the oddball interruption or engine stall vs. paying to replace engines all the time on trucks that didn't get checked on or develeped a sudden oil or coolant leak inexplicably...

I don't blame ya/gotta work with what's expedient (not trying to brag or talk down to ya, want you to succeed in achieving your goals & not waste precious dollars or effort), just surprised there aren't a few trickling in or someone doesn't have a FS thread with all those aforementioned items or from their part out 'known good' w/ a Bosch 100A JY or Denso 100A E-fan 92+ 7/9 alt to go if you don't already have that or better to power it (tho dave Barton ran outta belt pulley traction to turn the alt with the stock 240 V-belts for his gigantic (Mark 8 or similar amp-hungry e-fan setup?).

IDK that the e-fan is 'modern,' plenty of cars & trucks have clutched or hydraulic drive mech fans still...
IDK why anyone would route the power thru the small pulley ~50% efficient alt & back to the fan...sounds less efficient than a good T-static clutch or hydraulic drive setup...
On the 240 anyway, with the dual V-birds (belts), the wrapped area of the alt + WP pulleys adds up the wrapped area on the crank pulley in the triangle. There's *just* enough power to spin the water pump, alt with all the stock accessories & cooling fan mostly locked up on a hot day with everything going, as configured.

Kinda throws it outta balance if you take some of the load off the water pump pulley & pile it onto the alt pulley, no? Something's gotta give?
Unless you have some ace up your sleeve for larger radiator/not that powerful of a fan (which is what Volvo did; larger radiator on e-fan cars (so less fan CFM needed for the same BTU exchange rate vs. the clutch fan & more efficient alt under load at idle speeds, namely), more efficient fan, more efficient alt, alternate belt setup?
Just something to consider...Dbarton went thru all kinds of setups to wind up with ~ the same level of cooling as the good quality made in Japan tropical fan clutch & stock 240T/260 (for the pre 85 sheetmetal) pusher fan was capable of...

Ultimately, even with a giant radiator (like a 3-row V6/V8/Diesel size), even if you use the larger diameter & steeper pitch propeller PRV fan blade & larger clutch hub & really lose your mind & have TONS of cooling air/heat exchanger wise, the red engine, as installed in the 240 chassis will overheat with the A/C on towing in 4th at 80mph at 3500-4000rpm+ blowing 3-10psi of boost at it continuous with the A/C on on a 100 degree day. Why is this? The heater valve works by restriction, unless you drill the Group-A holes & run a bypass style heater valve instead of a block off style valve it's going to climb on the temp gauge over time pulling 3000lbs with a bunch of lumber on the roof continuous.

I went to a bypass style valve. (I mean, you could turn on the furnace/240 heater on a 100 degree day too, but I doubt you'd want to ?)
Effective, but mixed feelings on that, as in, extreme cold, if you don't block heat the engine, you *want* the restriction style heater valve shut off prior to startup for faster warm-up times starting up stone cold w/proper oil & gentle light throttle cruise/gently varying RPM for engine wear in those conditions. Make sense? On a cold day, try timing your light cruise warmup time to OP temp with the heater valve left open vs. shut if you don't believe me. Not everyone is towing under load in the hi desert or doing thunderhill race track at full boost in their outdated Group-A car ...there's a reason the daily driver/factory cars come with a cost & use compromise restriction heater valve & don't have the Group-A holes drilled in the back of the cylinder head...

SCAABS are mostly done, C900s & their transmissions especially,...the brand defacto doesn't exist/no dealer network or inventory or easy way to get parts in your town for the thing in a reasonable amount of time?
If you're a hardcore SAAB-Story-head, you can still keep one going probably, but they mostly all expired by now west coast & are gone off even 99.99% the backwater Seattle metro / Puget sound area streets & JYs too by now.

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Old 06-20-2022, 01:25 AM   #17
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^

The Saabs all went down ~10 years ago, you never see one in the yards anymore.
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Old 06-21-2022, 12:45 PM   #18
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I went to a bypass style valve.
Would you mind telling us more about which bypass heater valve you use? Cable? Electronic?
Anyone else using one?
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Old 06-21-2022, 03:37 PM   #19
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^I think I got it off some rando junkyard Vanagon?
I've seen them on other 80s VWs with cable climate control as well?
Cable operated same as the 240.
& that's what was kinda finnicky in conjunction with the USA climate control;
In the winter, you WANT the restriction type heater valve & Group-A holes in the head blocked for fast warm up/least engine wear if no engine block heater.

Bypass type is probably honestly fine on a 240Turbo with a 'water cooled' (water-jacketed might be a more appropriate term?) Turbo as there's so much coolant right next to the exhaust housing there that warmup time is usually pretty fast if the grill/radiator is mostly blocked off even if its -40 to -60 out & you don't block heat it/plug it in.
On my 240Turbo automatic police car I barely had to wait for the engine to come up to temp with the trans & turbo warming the cooling loop, but on that car I didn't tow with it/torture it like the wagon, so it retained the restriction style stock heater valve.

It's really fine as long as the RPMs stay under 3500-4000, but if you're running 3-6psi of boost against the wind in 100 degree heat with the A/C on trying to make time towing in 4th with the engine screaming away crossing a high-elevation pass in the high desert with 12" of stuff on the roof, wagon loaded to the gunnels & towing a 3000lb trailer, even if the heat exchangers are doing their job reasonably well with all the air guides in place, the water just can't escape the back of the head without cavetation at those RPMs/water pump RPMs.
Hence the Group-A cars being setup as they were as even cooler weather on a more oval-track that's kinda 5-6000+rpm & full boost all the time, these will run hot.

As will the 1976 4 speed cars w/4.10 gears at full load/screaming along at 3500-4000+ RPM.

700 series cars obviously have a blend door & coolant goes thru the heater core continuously, except when set on 'max A/C' / heat knob clicked off to click the vac switch over to close the vacuum servo coolant valve in the engine bay that likes to explode on later plastique versions or have the shaft seal pee/leak resulting on a fukishima engine nuclear meltdown if not caught immediately.

I can't tell in our climate deleting that valve, but those in hotter climes report that having the coolant going thru the heater core in the cabin reduces A/C performance slightly?
It's nice to have that valve to close for winter warmup same as you'd do on a 240 warming it up properly for lowest warmup time possible to reduce engine wear & fuel use & close the valve all the way until the temp gauge reads middle starting off at light load cruise/lean burn fast idle.

Can be a little hairy in winter starting off down the road for defrost/snow waiting for the temp gauge to get up to middle before opening the heater valve if you don't want to waste fuel lean fast idling it/avoiding washing it down & aren't using a block heater (not a bad idea but you want to test periodically to make sure the car warms up properly or will start properly in extreme cold somewhere far from home/life threatening).

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