home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-07-2021, 11:53 AM   #26
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default



I've spent alot of time at the scope (years) examining the winds, motors, and inverters for power factor improvement better efficiency and harmonic attenuation.
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 11:57 AM   #27
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default



One of my high current winds for high speed planes. It is a 1 turn parallel wye and 2 turn
parallel delta hybrid wound open ended for a cascaded inverter. This 46 mm motor stator and wind can easily support well over 10Kw peaks . Its just a lil baby at that.

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 02:42 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 12:01 PM   #28
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default



Ferro fluid work

Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 12:06 PM   #29
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Nice...Dual stack? stators or complete machines in tandem? In tandem u may be able to tie a wye and delta motor in series as long as the wye coils are left open ended. This allows for harmonic mitigation and one inverter for two machines. The windings and current capabilities would need to be matched in the machines at a winding ratio of the square root of 3. and sqrrt3/2 if you start paralleling coils. U can also tie two wyes together serially as long as one is wound with open ended coils but there will be no harmonic attenuation with that just two wye motors running off one inverter. I will send you some papers if you are building the machines. U see the ATE design inspired lamination here in the photo. No one has this. Its was sent direct from my colleague who holds several patents in motor and fuel cell design and well as aircraft instrumentation. We are not eye to eye about some other issues currently. However this was a gift from him.

Regards
Hubert
These are twin complete rotor/stators that share a common shaft. Yes, it does require dual inverters, but by running them this way, you have both failsafe, and split load. The power electronics are always the weak link. Power modules are sensitive, and while the technology for handling high currents and tune-able power delivery is getting better, they still hold the limiting factor for the most part.

All of our motors are synchronous 3 phase AC, with both series wound stators, and parallel wound stators. Rotors are all permanent magnet, with either fully encased, or laminated construction. We have done some potted water cooled (didnt like the hot spotting and inconsistencies of deliverable power), oil flooded, dry sump liquid cooled, and liquid cooled with internal oil>liquid heat exchanger setups.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 12:10 PM   #30
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default


Here's one high current motor I wound for an 1/8th scale unlimited hydroplane where I in increased the copper fill >134% Dual 13 ga wires for UVW terminals. The preece value for this motor is upwards of 600 amperes!

Here are the motor parameters if you like to look at it in some ecal applet

Rm .oo5 ohms
Kv 824
Io 3.27 amps @22.5 volts including radial fan load.
Weight 448.8 grams
Here it is on 12s in the FE boat cal.

ABC 1818 calculated as most efficient prop in its database for performance hydro @ 12s lipo 9800 mah

33,940 rpm
153 amps
Pin 6.394 kilowatts
Pout 6.125 kilowatts
Run time 3.85 minutes
Est speed 90.12 mph or 145.03408 km/h
Eff. 95.80 %

This is the estimated Lap speed for the 48 inch boat and here the torque and efficiency plot . You can see that the efficiency doesn't start to drop of until around 268 amperes... about 13Kw at this voltage. The motor is only about 40 x 30 mm!
What would require more torque from its motor than a speed boat. Very little.



Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 12:27 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 12:24 PM   #31
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

With a hybrid wound motor fault tolerance is created as you actually have two complete motor winding sets on one stator. No matter if anything fails the efficiency is lost in the pseudo limp mode. Plus the chance of faults is greatly reduced inherently by the cooler running motor and windings. As a result the higher efficiency of a cleaner sinus and cooler running mean more power. The winds reduce the overall machine losses by about half. Thats HUGE!!!!



Drive technology will move to high voltage igbt SiC sht.... If the manufacturers learn to design inverters like siemens there wont be an issue very long. The other issue is ev hobbyist arent very inept at what industry can offer, certainly there are VFDs that can handle any power requirement. They cost big money as do quality high C cells.

Siemens air propulsion motor above produced 1500 nm at a weight of 50 kg. The inverter weighed in at 900 grams There are also split phase inverter designs that are extremely efficient. The last motor we haven't talked about is a synchronous reluctance machine. They make more noise but only use a steel rotors and a stator with copper coils to do work. Cheap and easy to build safely. They use a simple six step bang bang algorithm. ABB is heading work on the synchronous reluctance machine that place a small bit of pm material in the rotors teeth.

Regards
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 01:50 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 01:59 PM   #32
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

For fault tolerance there is also concentrated fractionally slotted multi layer winds sinusoid ally interspersed (coils from different phases on the same teeth). Also you have poly phase motors ie. 5 phase with pentagonal winding topologies...........and more and more. The concentrated single tooth windings have advantage over harmonically damped phase overlapping distributive winds because of the shorter end turns and increased fill possibility. They are for this reason also easier and cheaper to manufacture. If I was going to build a motor that will kill the induction machine in power density it would definitely be a BLDC machine with the hybrid wind. Segmented neo magnets of this size will cost alot and be dangerous to construct a motor with without rigs or fixtures but there will be nothing stronger in an induction machine or pm unless its a YASA or flux switching motor another beast altogether that requires pm's in the stator arms in almost a halbach array. I have designed one in 50mm. Ill find those cad renditions. The controller for the flux switching machine is also another hurdle but I think a VFD using direct torque control can handle it as long as you take static measurements and upload the motors parameters into the controllers registry.

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 02:20 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 02:28 PM   #33
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default


This is the general stator topology of the external rotor PMFS ( permanent magnet flux switching machine). The color represents the magnets in the teeth and they are set with each successive pairs of teeth same poles N/SS/N .... S/NN/S....N/SS/N... are facing each other then away from one another around itz circumference. The rotor is external so this could be a in wheel hub design. The real machine has no hammer heads on the stator. The laminate steel rotor would look like an inverted trigger wheel with the teeth on the id. versus the od.



Heres the torque profile of the IEEE Drs prototype flux switching machine

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 02:37 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 03:27 PM   #34
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
DHX only cools the outer coils/gaps. They don't spray cool the inner rotor.

Being able to change the # of poles is really neat, especially if you can reduce back EMF at higher speeds.

When I did this it was just the cryogenic reaction on the stator in a 5 second spray duration of C4H10. This is an external rotor machine. If I was to cool Ferro fluid with the reaction I would spray a finned reservoir. And of course it would be alot safer to spray C02 or NOS.



The ferrofluids elegance is it need no pump. It work passively by currie effect. The cold fluid will by design displace the hottest fluid first in an endless loop. Itz quite cool rocket science literally. Please excuse the pun.



The fluid would leave and return to this reservoir where the fluid has be routed directly into and out of the airgap. The stator can implement mechanically a WELC winding embedded liquid cooling system. I imagine it could make use of the cryogenic gas purge very effectively as well.



If you can implement these things into a motor design you will make even more power.





Regards
Hubert.

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 03:53 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 05:09 PM   #35
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

I recall that someone put a Nissan Leaf motor they got from a wrecked car into a Mercedes W115 in place of the original four cylinder and backed it up with a Ford three speed. Apparently adapter plates and kits for attaching them to standard manual gearboxes are becoming more common and may help mitigate the previously mentioned problem of limited RPM when using a drive shaft. The gearbox could also be shifted with a "clutch" switch that just let the motor freewheel. I tried to find the video series but it seems they were removed from youtube.

I think as more electric cars wind up in junkyards we will get a steady supply of motors for these swaps. Tesla might be hard though given that they have been known to buy up wrecked cars to squash a used parts market.
__________________
1967 122s, B20F, M40
1989 240 B230F (V15 cam, chipped EZK), M47 (Lost a fight with a Chevy express van)
2012 VW Tiguan 6 speed auto (oh the joys of carbon buildup).
spock345 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 06:49 PM   #36
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock345 View Post
I recall that someone put a Nissan Leaf motor they got from a wrecked car into a Mercedes W115 in place of the original four cylinder and backed it up with a Ford three speed. Apparently adapter plates and kits for attaching them to standard manual gearboxes are becoming more common and may help mitigate the previously mentioned problem of limited RPM when using a drive shaft. The gearbox could also be shifted with a "clutch" switch that just let the motor freewheel. I tried to find the video series but it seems they were removed from youtube.

I think as more electric cars wind up in junkyards we will get a steady supply of motors for these swaps. Tesla might be hard though given that they have been known to buy up wrecked cars to squash a used parts market.
I wouldn't doubt they'd do something that greedy. The Mercedes ecars are equally outstanding nevertheless. Id rather have the Benz personally. They've been a great company to work for. That's real. I can personally say from the front line we put alot into it. Thats no bs its quality work and craftmanship that goes into what we and they do over in Germany.

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 06:59 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 07:03 PM   #37
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
I wouldn't doubt they'd do something that greedy. The Mercedes ecars are equally outstanding nevertheless. Id rather have the Benz personally. They've been a great company to work for. That's real. I can personally say from the front line we put alot into it. Thats no bs its quality work and craftmanship that goes into what we and they do over in Germany.
I'd probably own a W114 or 115 if all the ones I've looked at weren't hiding terminal rust. I like the build quality and bombproof feel. Although without all the little gadgets in modern cars that distract me.
spock345 is offline  
Old 05-07-2021, 07:49 PM   #38
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Man.... on the line the production techs use torque wrenches that set the appropriate torque on the wrench from a barcode scanner on the wrench pointed at the part in question and data logs the torque of every single bolt on the car this way. That's kept with the tech's name who did it on file for 25 years. The next bolt in sequence the wrench wont torque unless the preceding bolt is to spec. Now Benz will crush a car if a customer cancel and the car has some proprietary thing about it like Amazon's sprinter van color... Bezos nevertheless we will produce the e-vehicles they brag about. Benz as a company will not sell anything that is not their spec to an outside individual. Since that color is not theirs but Amazons crap they wont sell it to you and it be called a Benz.

Last edited by hk 40; 05-07-2021 at 08:09 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-10-2021, 12:04 AM   #39
h20ham
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: W. Kootenays BC
Default

Mercedes has been dominating formula e for a while now

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010...-gas-cars.html

Tyrrel (F1) had a city in India powered by geothermal. The compressed gas was held in the frame of the car. The car was powered by nylon engines, pistons etc. One way valve released the captured geothermal.

GM batteries are neat too
__________________
How did you get here
h20ham is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 03:18 AM   #40
OttoB
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: E(Seattle!Vancouver! San Francisco!LA!) Helsinski
Default

This will definitely spool
OttoB is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 09:21 AM   #41
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoB View Post
This will definitely spool
Meaning?

Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 09:35 AM   #42
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
So is the hot junkyard style ticket to still get your hands on a Chevy Bolt battery pack? Seems like they're easier to fit into a 'legacy' type car. Designed from scratch EV's seem to have that whole skateboard thing going, not an easy retrofit, unless you just sort of perch some random car body on top and take it on a ride.



I that what these are? I get them from a guy that supplies them at a great price. maybe thats what his game is I dunno. Th QR scan on them brough back nothing. Im pretty sure the are Lithium Ion Lithium Polymer has more energy and is more compact but much more volatile and picky to charging etc.. Th ultimate cells liken themselves to a thin tablet or laptop in terms of form factor. You remove the gas tank and build a rack in the rear for all the cells. Supercaps will also find away into the EV world soon enuf. In the photo you see plugs for individual cell monitoring to ensure a balance charge and cells by the charger.

And of course Mercedes is better than TESLA

Regards
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 05-14-2021 at 09:44 AM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 10:04 AM   #43
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

I mean really who is Elon Musk as he uses the name Tesla? A Black engineer RICHARD PATTERSON actually designed the TYPE S from scratch and has started his own car company with Percy Miller. Some of you know him as Master P. The Rapper! Here's them and the car






IMHO Tesla will never really be better than Benzo especially in style and class as a car and a company. He can focus on handling NASA's small projects. Im sure Richard probably left for a reason. Elon has no liking amongst his minority employees so I'll never own one. He's never looked this good and I stand fully behind what we do!!!
Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 10:14 AM   #44
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

Yeah, he didn't found PayPal, but via a merger came into it, then pushed out the founders. Same with Tesla.

I'm not sure you can really say SpaceX is only handling NASA's small projects, though. Landing people on the moon is about as top shelf/marquee as space projects get.
__________________
'63 PV Rat Rod
'93 245 16VT Classic #1141
JohnMc is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 10:22 AM   #45
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Oh no know top shelf for them is mars and beyond the moon is truly their small project. Been there done it already years ago so he launches satellites into orbit for them so they can concentrate or larger endeavors The whole moon thing will soon be about mining resources and a place for elitist to get away when they ruin everything here.

Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 10:45 AM   #46
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default



They aren't concentrating on larger missions, at least not in anything more than the vaguest conceptual plans way.

In terms of funding, landing people on the moon again is the biggest thing they have going.

Part of the reason SpaceX got the contract is because they were able to structure their costs in a way that fit into NASA's budget constraints. NASA can barely afford to do it, and it's not because they're spending money on going to Mars.
JohnMc is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 11:16 AM   #47
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Well I wont waste my time to argue the points of what came out if their own mouths at NASA their not my ideas on it.Mars is much more than a concept as they currently build in preparation. That said I truly care less about him and them.. and no one capable needs him to build an e car anyway so....screw him and the moon.

Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 11:28 AM   #48
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

Show us on the doll where he hurt you. Heh. Yeah, I'm not into the whole weird Elon cult thing that some people seem to be into.
JohnMc is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 11:35 AM   #49
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Show us on the doll where he hurt you. Heh. Yeah, I'm not into the whole weird Elon cult thing that some people seem to be into.
No comments. No cult participations on this end. Sounds serious. I wish I cared more about him an his cronies but unfortunately I don't and def not clickish. The bottom line for them is we build a better cars and human relationships within our walls.

Regards
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 05-14-2021 at 12:11 PM..
hk 40 is offline  
Old 05-14-2021, 11:54 AM   #50
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

Btw, for the putpose of the $14.99 I know What I Have crowd, all this talk is purely theoretical.

Get back to talking about drive trains that cost nothing and the batteries to power them. Also talk about electronic power steering and THE MOST IMPORTANAT THING Electric air conditioning. I live in Texas. AC is a must-have.


I would love to have an electric 245 that has some decent range and the ability to do 80+ mph. Those things are pretty much required for me and where I live.

For me personally it doesn't require brushless motors and regen. It's flat here and we don't spend enough time on the brajes for regen to do squat. I owned a 1st gen insight and regen charging never did much. I was always charging off the ICE and killing my mpgs. Until I too the battery out.

A chunky enough DC motor connected to an M46 even without OD would be my personal go-to. It will be the cheapest drive train, and the gearbox gives you options to do highway speeds. You'd likely just leave it in 2nd around town probably and thats fine.

Another option for the transmission is a Powerglide with a manual valve body. This can give you reverse, low, and high gears. It will handle a crap ton of torque too, so launches would become a thing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240240 View Post
Beets taste like buttfeet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lando
Tinnitus and hearing loss? Sounds like your ears could tolerate some Bose 901s!
88 244
06 XC90 V8
03 V70
HiSPL is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.