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Old 05-12-2021, 10:33 AM   #1
Jimbo244Deluxe
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Default What Cam for B21 with ITB's

Hi everyone, I'm looking at a ITB conversion for my Manual B21 and I was wondering which cam would be recommended to liven things up a bit, I'm looking for low/mid range power rather than top end screamer. Any feedback welcome
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:00 PM   #2
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ITB conversion what's that? The stock b21ft uses a t cam. I have migrated to an A cam in mine which is more streetable than a K. If you want the cam I can let it go for a small fee. Some people used IPD cams but Id look towards S.A.M. for the extreme.

regards
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:10 PM   #3
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sorry - ITB = independent throttle bodies
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:20 PM   #4
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What size ITBs and what head work has been done?
Stock compression ratio?
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo244Deluxe View Post
sorry - ITB = independent throttle bodies
Can I see this setup I've been looking for one and who makes the with suitable bell mouths.

I have some duration and lift numbers for the mentioned cams if you like to see them. They are also on board here somewhere. Btw what are you hp goals and what ecu injectors etc. Give me the meat!!!LOL Is it a NA tune or are the ITB enclosed in a directed plenum?


Thanks
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:13 PM   #6
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If its proprietary its ok. However here are the cams and their specs.


Regards,
Hubert
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:41 PM   #7
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Esim kl-racings t5 is a good choice, same as Timo's Motorin 13.10, or you can regrind a Custom camshaft from a-cam, and you can get cam that is designed to your engine and works perfectly with other parts.

Headwork is essential at these kind of projects, I think that valves must be at least 46/38, if you are going to Itb route you also need static compression as high as 12:1 - 14:1, example 14:1 is not that much of a dynamic compression if you had an aggressive camshaft.

Here in Finland The F-group rallycars use redblocks very often, they had an 14:1 compression, 48/40 valves, aggressively ported 531 heads, and a 14-15mm lift camshaft and 37 or 40mm solid lifters. They drive with 50mm webers or 50-55mm ITB:s.

If 2.3l then this kind of engine can produce at least 250hp, the best engines can produce 270hp if 2.3.
At rallycross there is an Evo-headed 2.8-3.2l redblocks with 16v heads and they produce maybe 370hp, if it is a three liter engine.

And they had a very good pover curve and they can produce also hell of a lot torque at 4000rpm and they rev over 8000rpm.
And this kind of car is also very drivable because of kinda "flat" torque curve.

But, sorry, i lost the point.
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi Alanko View Post
Esim kl-racings t5 is a good choice, same as Timo's Motorin 13.10, or you can regrind a Custom camshaft from a-cam, and you can get cam that is designed to your engine and works perfectly with other parts.

Headwork is essential at these kind of projects, I think that valves must be at least 46/38, if you are going to Itb route you also need static compression as high as 12:1 - 14:1, example 14:1 is not that much of a dynamic compression if you had an aggressive camshaft.

Here in Finland The F-group rallycars use redblocks very often, they had an 14:1 compression, 48/40 valves, aggressively ported 531 heads, and a 14-15mm lift camshaft and 37 or 40mm solid lifters. They drive with 50mm webers or 50-55mm ITB:s.

If 2.3l then this kind of engine can produce at least 250hp, the best engines can produce 270hp if 2.3.
At rallycross there is an Evo-headed 2.8-3.2l redblocks with 16v heads and they produce maybe 370hp, if it is a three liter engine.

And they had a very good pover curve and they can produce also hell of a lot torque at 4000rpm and they rev over 8000rpm.
And this kind of car is also very drivable because of kinda "flat" torque curve.

But, sorry, i lost the point.
Halo Jussi,
Excellent information from the field you share here on turbobricks.
What is the lift of the Esim T5 is it similar in lift and duration to SAM extreme T5 which is 11? Also who on your end can regrind the the A cams CORRECTLY?

If you ever come here the Lager is all on me.....

TIA,
Hubert

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Old 05-12-2021, 06:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Halo Jussi,
Excellent information from the field you share here on turbobricks.
What is the lift of the Esim T5 is it similar in lift and duration to SAM extreme T5 which is 11? Also who on your end can regrind the the A cams CORRECTLY?

If you ever come here the Lager is all on me.....

TIA,
Hubert
Thank you, mine is designed in LVR-racing engines, same speed-shop which made my cylinder head too. He had also cnc-machine and engine dyno to test his engines.

They also design parts, example headers and intake manifolds etc etc.

When i made my cam and head i just told to him what i wanted. I say it must produce power in range of 3500-7500 and N/A power should be something about 180whp, Then they put a 46/38 valve package to a 530 cylinder head, and good double springs, then they regrind a cam, it had to be a,d,v,vx,vx3,k or h then base circle doesn't go too little. The bigger the base circle then it's more gently to lifter.

They say that if my engine doesn't blow up it can produce something about 750whp, but my goals are about 450hp from flywheel.

I try to make as much na-power that i possibly can. It doesn't depend on the head, it flows 220hp with basic double weber intake manifold attached, also cam is aggressive enough, 12mm lift 278@0.050, they had around 500 ready to grind files in machine, in those they choose cam for you, intake manifold will be this:


exhaust manifold is also a good piece, and turbo is large enough, Super hx40 with 18# exhaust housing. I think 180hp na power will be possible with this setup. So then it produces 360hp with 1 bar of boost, with 2 bars it is about 540hp, in theory but they go like this with experienced tests that example Richard Holdener does in youtube. And also when you read sävarturbo forums this kind of calculating formula pops up.

I had to came only because Lager is yours...
Take your head and cam and come here, porting job alone with 46/38 valve package costs to me something about 600€ including all valvework and multiangle valve job, if you put a 850€ to it, then head comes assembled and shimmed. And with a good valvesprings, they are damn same springs that they used in professional rallying. And with a selected camshaft to just to your machine,for example they had 20 different v16t camshaft grinds only, every cam is little different than another, valve events may differ and lift and LSA and if it had advanced or not etc etc. it's actually are not LVR which grinds cams, but he sells those and select those also. If you wanna a 200hp na-power, you will propably get there with good compression.

Then we can sell the head and cam at 1200$ in U.S, we made a 450€ / $ profit. Is there Volvo tuners that need a good head and cam service. You can call them in weekends also, sometimes i call to them and then we talk about cars hour or two...

With this head 2.3l had produced 240whp at 7200rpm, it had 14mm lift camshaft and a good headers. Static cr is only a 12:4! the head costs 650€ if you bring your own cam and 850€ with reground cam.


I can buy lagers and off course a vodka because were in finland...:

Its kind of cheap because you can get a 200 na hp with so little money, then only bump up compression and you have a very torquey rally engine, these 2-valve heads in redblocks at light chassis are very good to drive. My friend had a rallycar also wit redblock engine, it is something about 750kg in weight and it had only b200 engine with h-camshaft and double webers, maybe a 140hp. but it is torquey in nature and in small chassis he can tease BMW:s in rallying. It also had a gearbox with different ratios than standard, also 5:1 rear end ratio and a LSD helps this kind of light machine to go at respectful speeds through the forest...

Are there this kind of services. I think that maybe to a small block chevy they can make same than they make to redblocks in here, they are everywhere!!!
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:33 PM   #10
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There you can see some f-group and Rallycross engines, best redblocks produce 400hp in NA-form.
But they are 3.2l Rc-engines.

https://www.facebook.com/skautoengin...08026263031582
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Old 05-12-2021, 07:51 PM   #11
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So your webers are in a plenum. I have an associate who is a Mechanical Engineer in Beyern. He calls it Spiritus Alcohol we call it Everclear.



a couple shots will make you see America differently

Here's my b21ft head done by my machinist here in the Rockingham, N.C. a track that sponsors NOPI events. I don't know if he regrinds cams but his valve seat work is purely CNC. He can go where you want with that type of thing. He is predominantly a drag HEMI builder. He could do anything with the valve seats but make them beryllium





Valves

Come over we can drink it all or run it in the cars posibly

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-12-2021, 07:56 PM   #12
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Here's the block for this. U see we lay an stainless o-ring on top and a all copper head gasket. We hope with water injection and good knock sense we can grab 22-25 elbows.

May I see your webers and do they make EFI ITB's for a brick?

It also looks like you machinist glass beaded your chambers was the theory to prevent any cohesion to the surface of the CC's what the theory there?

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-12-2021, 08:18 PM   #13
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I don't have webers, i have microsquirt. But in the beginning stages i think i put a webers to it, but then i came to sense and bought a microsquirt. And i buy a kl-racing intake manifold, the cast one, not the manufactured one.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:04 PM   #14
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Wow. I guess even though the OP has ITB's I guess we will never see any.... lol. They haven't replied so I don't wanna drive this thread unnecessarily. I'll send you some pm's with any more questions I have.


Thank you for open sharing from your experience.
Hubert
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Old 05-13-2021, 04:36 AM   #15
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wow loads of information to digest, sorry for being late to my own party, busy day yesterday The conversion is in the works but not completed yet so i dont have any photos so soon as I have I'll post some up. The head is having some breathing and polishing work done as we speak but right now I've got to rush, watch this space
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Old 05-13-2021, 04:48 AM   #16
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If you wanted to go itb’s you could repurpose some motorcycle itb setups or use Jenvey itb’s that look like Webers.
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:30 AM   #17
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If you wanted to go itb’s you could repurpose some motorcycle itb setups or use Jenvey itb’s that look like Webers.
Motorcycle ITB can be pretty expensive. A good set of kehin or mikuni flatsides can run upwards of 2 stacks!(2 grand). And those are just for carbs. I'd think mikunis or something of that nature would co$t.

When someone says ITB I think this..... individually injected throttle bodies. My vision is a short set these type with a bell mouthed stack. Something like this should run beautifully off MS. These particular stacks aren't the best bell mouths I've seen. There design leaves something to be desired for good flow character. The mouth design you see here is not ideal. Those lips should roll all the way back into themselves for the smoothest flow as the air comes from back behind the stack opening around to the front.


Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 08:48 AM   #18
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This leads me to believe the ITB's and stacks can be easily 3d printed. You could print the entire body with injector boss and use metal internals.. (bearings, butterflies, linkage, bronze bushings for the fuel rail mounts, head flanges...). This is a much better bell mouth design to go after in selection. I'd have to take measurements and draw it up then create an .stl file.

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 09:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi Alanko View Post
Thank you, mine is designed in LVR-racing engines, same speed-shop which made my cylinder head too. He had also cnc-machine and engine dyno to test his engines.

They also design parts, example headers and intake manifolds etc etc.

When i made my cam and head i just told to him what i wanted. I say it must produce power in range of 3500-7500 and N/A power should be something about 180whp, Then they put a 46/38 valve package to a 530 cylinder head, and good double springs, then they regrind a cam, it had to be a,d,v,vx,vx3,k or h then base circle doesn't go too little. The bigger the base circle then it's more gently to lifter.

They say that if my engine doesn't blow up it can produce something about 750whp, but my goals are about 450hp from flywheel.

I try to make as much na-power that i possibly can. It doesn't depend on the head, it flows 220hp with basic double weber intake manifold attached, also cam is aggressive enough, 12mm lift 278@0.050, they had around 500 ready to grind files in machine, in those they choose cam for you, intake manifold will be this:


exhaust manifold is also a good piece, and turbo is large enough, Super hx40 with 18# exhaust housing. I think 180hp na power will be possible with this setup. So then it produces 360hp with 1 bar of boost, with 2 bars it is about 540hp, in theory but they go like this with experienced tests that example Richard Holdener does in youtube. And also when you read sävarturbo forums this kind of calculating formula pops up.

I had to came only because Lager is yours...
Take your head and cam and come here, porting job alone with 46/38 valve package costs to me something about 600€ including all valvework and multiangle valve job, if you put a 850€ to it, then head comes assembled and shimmed. And with a good valvesprings, they are damn same springs that they used in professional rallying. And with a selected camshaft to just to your machine,for example they had 20 different v16t camshaft grinds only, every cam is little different than another, valve events may differ and lift and LSA and if it had advanced or not etc etc. it's actually are not LVR which grinds cams, but he sells those and select those also. If you wanna a 200hp na-power, you will propably get there with good compression.

Then we can sell the head and cam at 1200$ in U.S, we made a 450€ / $ profit. Is there Volvo tuners that need a good head and cam service. You can call them in weekends also, sometimes i call to them and then we talk about cars hour or two...

With this head 2.3l had produced 240whp at 7200rpm, it had 14mm lift camshaft and a good headers. Static cr is only a 12:4! the head costs 650€ if you bring your own cam and 850€ with reground cam.


I can buy lagers and off course a vodka because were in finland...:

Its kind of cheap because you can get a 200 na hp with so little money, then only bump up compression and you have a very torquey rally engine, these 2-valve heads in redblocks at light chassis are very good to drive. My friend had a rallycar also wit redblock engine, it is something about 750kg in weight and it had only b200 engine with h-camshaft and double webers, maybe a 140hp. but it is torquey in nature and in small chassis he can tease BMW:s in rallying. It also had a gearbox with different ratios than standard, also 5:1 rear end ratio and a LSD helps this kind of light machine to go at respectful speeds through the forest...

Are there this kind of services. I think that maybe to a small block chevy they can make same than they make to redblocks in here, they are everywhere!!!
Hi Jussi,
Greetings from the USA. Please tell me more about this plenum. Its huge and is an 8 valve one possible. This is incredible. I know many have likely seen this but I haven't. 400 hp NA. Please share more links to these cool parts please. Is that an AMM here or are they driving by wire now? The "nuke" rail is interesting too. I also may want to become nuclear.



This is beautiful bro.

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 11:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo244Deluxe View Post
wow loads of information to digest, sorry for being late to my own party, busy day yesterday The conversion is in the works but not completed yet so i dont have any photos so soon as I have I'll post some up. The head is having some breathing and polishing work done as we speak but right now I've got to rush, watch this space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo244Deluxe View Post
Hi everyone, I'm looking at a ITB conversion for my Manual B21 and I was wondering which cam would be recommended to liven things up a bit, I'm looking for low/mid range power rather than top end screamer. Any feedback welcome
Check out this thread: https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=359838

The T5 cam from KL Racing will make over 200hp with stock sized valves and good tuning when used with ITBs or Side-drafts.

There are plenty of DCOE knock offs that you can get for ~ $800 usd for the entire kit (cabs, intake, linkage, filters).

You can also get EFI ITBs that mount up to DCOE flanges for about $600 for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSr. View Post
If you wanted to go itb’s you could repurpose some motorcycle itb setups or use Jenvey itb’s that look like Webers.
This is the proper way
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:25 PM   #21
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Jussi,





I see your friends at SK engineering know what wtf Im talking about...the plenum goes over it just like that. BINGO!!!



Damn!


Thank you
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 02:45 PM   #22
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Nice reshaped chambers on that head. Of course you could always go whole hog and get that EVO head and really have some high power n/a.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
[CENTER]

Motorcycle ITB can be pretty expensive. A good set of kehin or mikuni flatsides can run upwards of 2 stacks!(2 grand). And those are just for carbs. I'd think mikunis or something of that nature would co$t.
You can buy R1 throttles off an early 2000 bike for less than 300 on ebay. They're variable venturi and traditional throttle plate. I got a set for $80 CAN a few years back.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:03 PM   #24
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This leads me to believe the ITB's and stacks can be easily 3d printed. You could print the entire body with injector boss and use metal internals.. (bearings, butterflies, linkage, bronze bushings for the fuel rail mounts, head flanges...). This is a much better bell mouth design to go after in selection. I'd have to take measurements and draw it up then create an .stl file.

Regards
Hubert
I 3D print my own stacks for my ZS carbs. It works great, although probably not the most scientifically accurate, lol .
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:55 PM   #25
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@ Cullberro Yeah I saw that broad azz powerband on the cam for sure!

@dl242gt I know right. Not trying to hijack but between you and I I never said anything about NA

@broke4speed you'd be surprised and those creations of yours in the right material in pored porcelain can also be plugs for sling casting and finished on a mill and lathe then by hand. Very valuable the 3d printer is.

All I can say to Jussi is damn I'm feeling this sht fo sho....



Feeding one huge drive by wire analog servo controlled throttle body with only direct injector ports with bell mouth stacks with no butterfly inside the plenum would be sweet because it would require no throttle linkage, have no obstruction aft of the large tb and inherently have the potentiometer to feed back to the ECM for the butterflies positional reference. Feed that with the pressure player and run a closed loop system with a MAP based ecu and CBV.



Regards,
Hubert

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