home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2022, 07:16 PM   #1
RoadRacer4Life
Owner: DeathWagon
 
RoadRacer4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montgomery Alabama
Default IPD Camshaft install FAIL?

So we did the great RSI stage 3 vs IPD Turbo camshaft on the dyno and without a doubt the IPD cam made on average 15whp better than the RSI Stg3. So I decided to do some light maintenance " oil change" and had a significant amount of material on my magnetic oil plug .. Further investigation brought be back to the camshaft where I found some significant damage to the shims and some light damage to the trailing side of the camshaft lobes. Another weird thing was most of the damage was on the exhaust cam shims. installed lash .012 to .018












Thoughts ??
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
Threads like this continue to underline the fact that none of yall are ever actually going to catch me.
90 245GL 2JSWEDE 2JZ 245...
91 245GL Team Battle Wagon Chumpcar
93 245GL Street Beater
RoadRacer4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 08:04 PM   #2
leecatd8209
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: South Texas
Default

That looks awfully similar to what I had happen with mine. User Mikezohsix also had a similar experience.

When did you buy the ipd cam?





leecatd8209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 08:10 PM   #3
bobxyz
Board Member
 
bobxyz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Boulder CO
Default

Higher lift than stock causing the springs to bind?
bobxyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 08:21 PM   #4
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leecatd8209 View Post
That looks awfully similar to what I had happen with mine. User Mikezohsix also had a similar experience.

When did you buy the ipd cam?





You’re probably thinking of me, Mike Z is my dad. I’ve never ran an IPD cam. I had lobe wear on an RSI 3 cam caused by valve float and a dislodged lash cap (shim under bucket setup). I replaced it with another RSI 3 cam this year and really smoked that one in 300 miles. Math says my Ferrea springs had generous clearance to bind, head is in queue at the machine shop now for confirmation and diagnostics. I’m working with Erland Cox on a replacement grind currently with actual big lift (14.7mm intake) so need to make sure everything is kosher for sure.

.012-.018 is a huge adjustment range, but assuming it was nicely broken in coil bind is the most logical cause but the little IPD cam is unlikely to cause it. I’ll let you know if/when I can get an answer on mine. I think I might have gotten improperly hardened buckets from Supertech.
__________________
'79 242
943 pickup
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 08:27 PM   #5
leecatd8209
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: South Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
You’re probably thinking of me, Mike Z is my dad. I’ve never ran an IPD cam. I had lobe wear on an RSI 3 cam caused by valve float and a dislodged lash cap (shim under bucket setup). I replaced it with another RSI 3 cam this year and really smoked that one in 300 miles. Math says my Ferrea springs had generous clearance to bind, head is in queue at the machine shop now for confirmation and diagnostics. I’m working with Erland Cox on a replacement grind currently with actual big lift (14.7mm intake) so need to make sure everything is kosher for sure.

.012-.018 is a huge adjustment range, but assuming it was nicely broken in coil bind is the most logical cause but the little IPD cam is unlikely to cause it. I’ll let you know if/when I can get an answer on mine. I think I might have gotten improperly hardened buckets from Supertech.
Oh, ok

He mentioned accelerated cam wear in my recent autopsy thread, so I assumed it was also an ipd cam.
leecatd8209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 08:50 PM   #6
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

If used shims were used during installation. Maybe the hardened surface was compromised?
__________________
Dave,
1982 242 turbo. 338k miles. MVP coilovers and 3" exhaust. Flowed 405 with a V15. Cossie turbine housing with upgraded compressor housing. 90+, IPD remote oil filter. Some other goodness, too. Been lots of fun over 25 years. Restored in 2k. Now ready for a 2nd restoration.

1993 245 Classic, 435k miles, enem V15. IPD bars and chassis braces. Simons sport exhaust from Scandix. sbabbs ezk chip. Been a good road warrior. Genuine Volvo rebuilt leaky M47.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 09:18 PM   #7
leecatd8209
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: South Texas
Default

If it's spring bind I'd have to assume that IPD drastically changed the lift spec without telling anyone?
leecatd8209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 09:18 PM   #8
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leecatd8209 View Post
Oh, ok

He mentioned accelerated cam wear in my recent autopsy thread, so I assumed it was also an ipd cam.
Any smoking guns on yours? I had extreme wear on a single intake but had signs of accelerated wear on two others. I assemble with Joe Gibbs lube, use their break in oil, run fancy redline otherwise etc. I called Supertech and asked them the leading question of the hardness of their buckets and they quoted 68 HRC. When I told them I had my buckets tested and got 35 HRC they very quickly walked it back and said oh you have to test in Vickers because of the nitride coating (then why’d you quote 68 off the tip of your tongue???) and said I MUST have coil bind. We’ll see what I can find… have been looking into hard coatings for this round.

My heads so far off from a stock 8v head I’m not sure how relevant it is, though. But certainly similar wear patterns







Things on my list; bad cam, bad buckets, coil bind somehow, valves sticking/binding, improper spring seating etc. I didn’t have oiling issues so think either somehow the stack was becoming solid and beating the cam or it’s just bad luck and improperly hardened parts. We’ll see!
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 09:25 PM   #9
leecatd8209
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: South Texas
Default

Everything on mine was stock good used stuff except the cam. I used lubriplate when I installed everything, and ran cheap sae30 oil with some zinc additive for the short time that everything was together.

I installed new hushers prior to discovering the wear, so I'm leaving those out moving forward, but I haven't had it back together and running yet.
leecatd8209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 09:55 PM   #10
bobxyz
Board Member
 
bobxyz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Boulder CO
Default

If it's coil bind, I'd expect the very tip of the lobe to be abused. If it's valve float/loft, I'd expect the abuse to be just after the tip (as the lifter re-contacts the cam). Did any of you measure, or have the shop measure, valve seat pressures and valve open pressures?
bobxyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 10:18 PM   #11
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
If it's coil bind, I'd expect the very tip of the lobe to be abused. If it's valve float/loft, I'd expect the abuse to be just after the tip (as the lifter re-contacts the cam). Did any of you measure, or have the shop measure, valve seat pressures and valve open pressures?
Of course. But I’m not going to muddy the thread because my head is a science project compared to a stock head with an IPD cam.
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2022, 10:34 PM   #12
leecatd8209
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: South Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
Did any of you measure, or have the shop measure, valve seat pressures and valve open pressures?
I went the as advertised easy install route.
leecatd8209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 01:13 AM   #13
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Elgin Cams recommends severe duty oil for these motors like Motul or Royal Purple, a high grade synthetic with the zinc and other good stuff.
__________________
I don't know who I am when I am somebody else.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 02:46 AM   #14
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

I had that happen on one of the earlier gen IPD cams as well, got it warrantied out. Early on they had a run that weren't properly hardened, which caused accelerated lobe wear and similar patterns to what you posted up on the shim.
__________________
RIP
Doug Williams "Mr. Doug" 4/15/2009
Pete Fluitman "fivehundred" 7/14/2013
Mick Starkey "TrickMick" 1/10/14
Mark Baldwin "blue850t5" 7/19/18
Nick Fengler "fengler" 8/6/18
Thomas Fritz "stealthfti" 10/11/18
Bob Davi "bob davi" 10/2021

74 144 B20
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=224983

90 745Ti
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=334698

If you need Superpro bushings PM me for price and availability!
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 11:11 AM   #15
RoadRacer4Life
Owner: DeathWagon
 
RoadRacer4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montgomery Alabama
Default

An interesting note it only really happened on the exhaust valves. This head has upgraded larger exhaust valves but I don't really understand how I ran the RSI Stg 3 cam for a long long time without issue but maybe 500 miles on this IPD one and all of this unexpected damage.

I sent and e-mail to info@ipdusa.com yesterday. I'll let you guys know the response.

-Sam
RoadRacer4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 11:16 AM   #16
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRacer4Life View Post
An interesting note it only really happened on the exhaust valves. This head has upgraded larger exhaust valves but I don't really understand how I ran the RSI Stg 3 cam for a long long time without issue but maybe 500 miles on this IPD one and all of this unexpected damage.

I sent and e-mail to info@ipdusa.com yesterday. I'll let you guys know the response.

-Sam
My sitch is similar in that regard. I completely rebuilt my head with all new parts; ran it for a year and a half, put in a brand new cam with brand new buckets and set lash perfectly then smoked it in a few months. This is why I'm suspicious of bad parts.

Interested in the outcome!
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 12:04 PM   #17
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

It was a long time ago, but I put an IPD cam in a 531 head. 8 new shims, all correctly gapped. Using Mobil 1. And only a few thousand miles later I had a flat lobe. I forget which cylinder it was.
__________________
'63 PV Rat Rod
'93 245 16VT Classic #1141

Last edited by JohnMc; 01-10-2022 at 12:23 PM..
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 12:11 PM   #18
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Redmond, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRacer4Life View Post
An interesting note it only really happened on the exhaust valves. This head has upgraded larger exhaust valves but I don't really understand how I ran the RSI Stg 3 cam for a long long time without issue but maybe 500 miles on this IPD one and all of this unexpected damage.

I sent and e-mail to info@ipdusa.com yesterday. I'll let you guys know the response.

-Sam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
My sitch is similar in that regard. I completely rebuilt my head with all new parts; ran it for a year and a half, put in a brand new cam with brand new buckets and set lash perfectly then smoked it in a few months. This is why I'm suspicious of bad parts.

Interested in the outcome!
Did you both use a high EP cam lube, fill the oil wells with oil, and break the cam in? Usually it's not necessary with OEM volvo cams, but the aftermarket cams seem to be a lot more picky about this.
Even running used shims on a new cam is questionable.

Stiggy - Did the RSI cam have a dark coating on the lobes before you installed it?

The new IPD cams are not coming with a parkerized coating for break in, and this is a huge mistake imo with a new aftermarket cam.

IPD also lists the cams as "billet". I'm not sure if they're actually made from a billet of steel or if it's a chilled billet casting. I can't think of any billet steel that would work well in a sliding friction application (cam lobe and flat tappet, roller is ok), unless it was hardened and used a coating.
__________________
Cult Person. Pissing in your Kool-Aid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyotahead View Post
That's why you give blowies with a mouth full of Listerine, sanitizes the sausage and leaves everyone with a fresh clean wintergreen taste or scent!
Quote:
Originally Posted by megulon-7 View Post
Sigh…. It leads to the hard stuff. Hot sauce or I can’t get off now.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 12:22 PM   #19
RoadRacer4Life
Owner: DeathWagon
 
RoadRacer4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montgomery Alabama
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Did you both use a high EP cam lube, fill the oil wells with oil, and break the cam in? Usually it's not necessary with OEM volvo cams, but the aftermarket cams seem to be a lot more picky about this.
Even running used shims on a new cam is questionable.
I used some sort of cam lube Kenny had laying around the shop. I used the old shims like I have done many times before without issue. I did not install this cam the perfect / proper way I literally swapped it out on the dyno to see the differences and it worked better so I left it in the car. The thing is that I have done this before without issue and this is the first time I have used this new "BILLET" camshaft. Actually I took this cam from kenny. It was new on the shelf but I'm not sure how long it was on the shelf. I have 2 brand new ones in the boxes but I don't want to necessarily swap in another and re setup the head only to have this issue happen again.

-Sam
RoadRacer4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 12:43 PM   #20
RvolvoR
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PDX
Default

I will say this from what I know...I am pretty sure that the ipd cams and the RSI cams came/come from the same factory.
RvolvoR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 12:54 PM   #21
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Redmond, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RvolvoR View Post
I will say this from what I know...I am pretty sure that the ipd cams and the RSI cams came/come from the same factory.
Please tell me it wasn't OCG...
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 01:08 PM   #22
RvolvoR
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Please tell me it wasn't OCG...
nope. A place in eastern europe iirc.
RvolvoR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 02:07 PM   #23
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Did you both use a high EP cam lube, fill the oil wells with oil, and break the cam in?
Even running used shims on a new cam is questionable.

Stiggy - Did the RSI cam have a dark coating on the lobes before you installed it?
I used Driven assembly lube buttered on the cam, then did the typical ~2k/20min break in cycle with Driven BR30 break in oil, did one more cycle then dumped, changed filter and ran my usual Redline. Brand new set of buckets every time (gets expensive!) I did not pour any oil into the head though. That was my third brand new RSI cam broken in that way and the first to be problematic.

Yeah it did have kind of a dark finish to it, never really thought about that.
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 02:24 PM   #24
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Redmond, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
I used Driven assembly lube buttered on the cam, then did the typical ~2k/20min break in cycle with Driven BR30 break in oil, did one more cycle then dumped, changed filter and ran my usual Redline. Brand new set of buckets every time (gets expensive!) I did not pour any oil into the head though. That was my third brand new RSI cam broken in that way and the first to be problematic.

Yeah it did have kind of a dark finish to it, never really thought about that.
Sounds like you did just about everything that you could to help with the cam break-in.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2022, 02:30 PM   #25
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Sounds like you did just about everything that you could to help with the cam break-in.
And at this point I expect the machine shop to call and say "the head looks fine what do you want us to do with it." Maybe I'll wrap the lobes in $100's when I break in the Erland cam
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.