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Old 04-30-2011, 09:23 PM   #1
550
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Default At my end with this car :-( can anyone help?

Ok the setup:

B21FT kjet head, kjet ports plugged with the old injectors running a B230ft intake

MSnS 1 V2.2
-S70 injectors
-Hall sensor disty from a newer car

Car runs, and idles fine. But almost has some sort of miss. When I'm driving it get's worse.

I don't notice anything off in the logs... but I'm no god when it comes to tuning. The timing has been verified time and time again with a light. I even tried driving the car with a fixed degree just to see if I'm stupid with this map. (Which I believe is conservative)

http://jjfab.net/Public/Joe/4-30.msq
http://jjfab.net/Public/Joe/4-30.xls

I'm not sure what else to do anymore. It is always missing when running. Replaced plugs a few times too, as well as injectors.

ANy help would be awesome!!

Thankyou
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:12 PM   #2
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Man I haven't looked at this stuff in a LONG time, the first thing that comes to mind is that you have your spark output set to inverted, whereas mine is set to not inverted (this is from an old file when I still had the LH2.2 dizzy, so it should apply). Another thing is that your trigger angle is 62 whereas mine is 60, not a big difference but IIRC I had a reason to put it exactly at 60, then probably use the dizzy to fine tune it. Spark map looks fine, it's about 5-10 points lower across the board than mine, however it should still drive dandy.

Under constants I had reqfuel 6.8, 2 injections per cycle, Alternating. You have 11.2, 4 injections per cycle, simultaneous. Again, probably not going to make a huge difference, but sometimes these little things kick your butt when trouble shooting.

Under accel enrichments, assuming you're using an 850 tps like I am, my tpsdot threshold is 44.9, whereas yours is 0.781???? Is it maybe coming all all the freakin time or something? Haven't looked at the log yet.

Other than that, is your hall sensor wire shielded? Getting any tach spikes? I'm thinking that "miss" should be apparent somewhere, either as a tach spike, accel spike, O2 spike, etc.

Is this car coming to Carlisle if it runs? See you there!
John
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:30 PM   #3
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Looked at the log, most of the time everything looks smooth, but there are quite a few spots where it looks like you're mashing the gas repeatedly while in gear, all the signals wave up and down quickly. Not sure what else I can tell you at this point. Best of luck!
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:40 PM   #4
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Your pulsewidths look really small in your datalog and your fuel pressure is dropping very low at times.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:41 PM   #5
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Did you replace the injector seals or did you just leave the injectors in place? Did you try to plug the fuel lines with anything and/or crimp them down GOOD?

$.50 in a bet says those seals are bad and leaking considerably. Check them. Mine were completely shot and I COULD NOT get the car to idle or run properly until I found a better solution to plug the holes - now it runs like a top. Also, after having my old injectors out, it doesn't seem like they themselves will seal under vacuum. After all, they're meant to have fuel running through them constantly. Make sure the fuel line stubs (or the injectors themselves) are plugged or at least very well crimped if you must use the old injectors to plug the holes. I recommend 77volvo245's plugs. Well worth the money.
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Last edited by 760T man; 04-30-2011 at 10:47 PM..
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Aspirator View Post
Man I haven't looked at this stuff in a LONG time, the first thing that comes to mind is that you have your spark output set to inverted, whereas mine is set to not inverted (this is from an old file when I still had the LH2.2 dizzy, so it should apply). Another thing is that your trigger angle is 62 whereas mine is 60, not a big difference but IIRC I had a reason to put it exactly at 60, then probably use the dizzy to fine tune it. Spark map looks fine, it's about 5-10 points lower across the board than mine, however it should still drive dandy.
60 v. 62 should be fine. 35 or 110 would be an issue, but 62 is in the right neighborhood. Should set the dizzy in the middle of the range and then lock down timing to 10 in MS and then change trigger angle til your timing at idle is at 10. That's how I did it, anyway.

Quote:
Under constants I had reqfuel 6.8, 2 injections per cycle, Alternating. You have 11.2, 4 injections per cycle, simultaneous. Again, probably not going to make a huge difference, but sometimes these little things kick your butt when trouble shooting.
With 46(?) lb CFIs, I had 9.2 req fuel and 4 per cycle, simultaneous.
http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/107500658.jpg

Quote:
Under accel enrichments, assuming you're using an 850 tps like I am, my tpsdot threshold is 44.9, whereas yours is 0.781???? Is it maybe coming all all the freakin time or something? Haven't looked at the log yet.
Yours is essentially off at 44.9. I think 49 is the max. Usually around 0.6 to 1.5 is the range where it's active, but not coming on constantly. His should be off too (I mean it SHOULD be turned off, it's not). It will drive poorly when cold, but once warm, it should be OK with accel enrichment off. That's how mine is with it off.

Quote:
Is this car coming to Carlisle if it runs? See you there!
John
If lee quinnnn can make SE is his bucket, joe should be able to make this thing limp to carlisle...haha totally not worth trying, but it's possible.

my old settings are here, from when it ran/started/idled great on the b230f pre-turbo-addition.

http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/megasquirt

ford cfi's, -139, lh2.2 dizzy, v2.2, old basic easy setup. mine hasn't changed much since then...still running the same MS, injectors, module, dizzy, etc. original fuel pumps, too, and it's plenty rich at 20+psi.

I braided the hall sensor wires and twisted the wires for the other sensors. dunno if it helped, but it didn't hurt.
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:18 PM   #7
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I don't have any MS related software on my new laptop, so I'm looking at the msq in xml format. is your rev limiter set to 24k/25k soft/hard? ha, might want to dial that back a touch. You can instead put 5deg timing along the last column.

is everything well grounded at the same place? rob used to have issues with grounds I think. at least one instance of rewiring some stuff while at SE.
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Aspirator View Post
Man I haven't looked at this stuff in a LONG time, the first thing that comes to mind is that you have your spark output set to inverted, whereas mine is set to not inverted (this is from an old file when I still had the LH2.2 dizzy, so it should apply). Another thing is that your trigger angle is 62 whereas mine is 60, not a big difference but IIRC I had a reason to put it exactly at 60, then probably use the dizzy to fine tune it. Spark map looks fine, it's about 5-10 points lower across the board than mine, however it should still drive dandy.

Under constants I had reqfuel 6.8, 2 injections per cycle, Alternating. You have 11.2, 4 injections per cycle, simultaneous. Again, probably not going to make a huge difference, but sometimes these little things kick your butt when trouble shooting.

Under accel enrichments, assuming you're using an 850 tps like I am, my tpsdot threshold is 44.9, whereas yours is 0.781???? Is it maybe coming all all the freakin time or something? Haven't looked at the log yet.

Other than that, is your hall sensor wire shielded? Getting any tach spikes? I'm thinking that "miss" should be apparent somewhere, either as a tach spike, accel spike, O2 spike, etc.

Is this car coming to Carlisle if it runs? See you there!
John
I actually had it set at 60, but decided to bump it around a bit to see what the deal was.(I'll probably put it back down to 60, just because it did actually work there too) I did forget to mention I am running a Bosch 139 and everything I have seen says run it not inverted, but my car only runs inverted. Not sure what's up with that. :-/
I'm going to turn off accel enrichment and see what happens.

I won't be bringing this to Carlisle. Way to rough around the edges right now haha. I have a different turbo to go on it and I need to redo the exhaust, but I refuse to do it until I can solve this other issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Aspirator View Post
Looked at the log, most of the time everything looks smooth, but there are quite a few spots where it looks like you're mashing the gas repeatedly while in gear, all the signals wave up and down quickly. Not sure what else I can tell you at this point. Best of luck!
There were actually times I was mashing the pedal down to try and figure out some accel enrichment stuff. There were some nasty lean issues with the swap to the new injectors. And I was trying to see if anything in particular changed my issue lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by varg View Post
Your pulsewidths look really small in your datalog and your fuel pressure is dropping very low at times.
What would cause that? The in tank pump is brand new, but the main pump has not been replaced by me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 760T man View Post
Did you replace the injector seals or did you just leave the injectors in place? Did you try to plug the fuel lines with anything and/or crimp them down GOOD?

$.50 in a bet says those seals are bad and leaking considerably. Check them. Mine were completely shot and I COULD NOT get the car to idle or run properly until I found a better solution to plug the holes - now it runs like a top. Also, after having my old injectors out, it doesn't seem like they themselves will seal under vacuum. After all, they're meant to have fuel running through them constantly. Make sure the fuel line stubs (or the injectors themselves) are plugged or at least very well crimped if you must use the old injectors to plug the holes. I recommend 77volvo245's plugs. Well worth the money.
... I think you may be on to something here. I was under the impression those CIS Injectors had check valves in them. I didn't bother trying to leave any part of the fuel line on them and crimp them or anything. And I definitely did not bother to replace the seals. I Just posted in his thread to make sure he still has some before I send the money LOL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by towerymt View Post
I don't have any MS related software on my new laptop, so I'm looking at the msq in xml format. is your rev limiter set to 24k/25k soft/hard? ha, might want to dial that back a touch. You can instead put 5deg timing along the last column.

is everything well grounded at the same place? rob used to have issues with grounds I think. at least one instance of rewiring some stuff while at SE.
Grounds are good, and all in the same place. I split them out of the harness and just ran them all to the pass side strut tower.

I like to rev high what can I say :-)
This better?
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:27 PM   #9
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Thanks for the corrections Towery, I had to dig deep in my brain to even remember the stuff that I wrote.

Joe I also ran a 139 module, non inverted. What happens when you switch it to inverted?

Those CIS injector o-rings, now that brings back a pretty strong memory. When my brother and I were building my 242 (then his) and we converted it to MS, we did just what you did, left the k-jet injectors alone. The car idled funny and drove a little off, it made power and would get around but something was definitely up and IIRC it read really lean sometimes. Finally replaced those o-rings with hardware store ones and it was like night and day, the car was normal all of a sudden! I believe the injectors don't leak internally, so you can leave them unplugged.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:42 AM   #10
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I will replace the o rings and see whats up. Probably try some propane to see if it is leaking for sure.

When I run inverted the car shuts off. And will not start. It's weird.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:27 AM   #11
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have you tried the other input on the 139 module?

looks like a car that needs to be tuned. question: what are you using to log fuel pressure?
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:06 PM   #12
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Second input ? Which one is that? I was using what i thought was a 139 diagram for the wiring. I'll have to find it and post it real quick

I don't actually have anything that logs fuel pressure, I have no physical sensor on there. So I guess in the MSlogs that is kind of erroneous.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:10 PM   #13
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Actually I wired it this way LOL
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:48 AM   #14
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Second input? ttt :-)
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:30 AM   #15
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Welll, car still runs inverted and hesitates weird, but with the new kjet plugs it seems to run a lot better.


Does still get pretty wonky when I start messing with the spark map. (Which is already really conservative). Soooooo who knows.
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