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Old 02-22-2021, 03:18 AM   #1
90volvo
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Default 90plus vs c.header vs Jpipe

Like it says, 90 plus ported manifold vs cutom header vs Na manifold with Jpipe. The engine package is ported head with oversize valves, RSI stage 3 camshaft, Klracing intake, big ebay intercooler, MS2, ID1000cc injectors, E85 fuel, Afr gauge, boost gauge. Engine has aftermarket h beam rods. turbo is open for advice. Goals- hit somewhere above 350 hp. Street driven with auto box with 3.73 gears. So, what you do?

My thoughts
90 plus would be easy and reliable. But might not flow better than the header.

Custom header with external wastegate- probably make more power and run more boost. But will be hard on plug wires and a pain to change plugs.

Jpipe with NA manifold.- The Jpipe I built has 1 3/4 pipes off the manfold and go to the turbo flange top front. I think it will be restrictive considering you have 4-1.5 runners in the manifold dumping into 2- 1.75 pipes. But maybe I am wrong. Lookiing back at header designs, exhuast gases expand when as they get cooler? But this set up is cheap, pretty easy to weld any kind of turbo flange on it. You can twin scroll it too.

I searched but never found anybody comparing all 3 options.
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:22 PM   #2
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I went with a custom header, there was no problems with the plug wires, and you can always put heat sleeves on them if it turns out to be a problem.

I used an internal wastegate exhaust housing and mounted the wastegate on the down pipe.

Lessons learned: do not use studs, use bolts on the turbo mounting flange. And skip the header wrap, that stuff doesn't last long and then makes a huge itchy mess.





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Old 02-23-2021, 10:57 PM   #3
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I you make tubular header it's same to make it twinscroll, because everybody knows that best all-round turbocharger is a holset's hx35 super which is a twin scroll turbo...

That's only my opinion.
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:46 PM   #4
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I'd ditch that pos ebay intercooler and get something that will actually cool that charges air. Something from Treadstone or Garrett.

The group A cars made 350hp on the "old" exhaust manifold. A ported 90+ to match a t3/t4 50 trim would get you there.

On E85 boost that bitch to the moon.
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Old 02-24-2021, 07:38 AM   #5
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I don't know why you're trying to reinvent the wheel (Only the Asperger side of me would say that...) with any external manifold other than just the 90+. It's an old school turbo choice, but a garrett t40e 50 trim will get you there on a plain ol 90+..... I'm sure there's more modern variants for more $$$.

IMHO the real reason for going with something other than the 90+ (log manifold, j-pipe, etc) is if you want an external wastegate to get that amazingly consistent boost control in the form of a spring.

Even a basic log manifold will do it. Back in 2004 -land people were adamant that only long tube headers could be used for turbo swaps and the stock logs were crap... until a bunch of people came along and made excellent power on log manifolds. Heck even the pre-90 turbo log manifold has a great flat spot on it to weld a pipe to an external gate.

I don't know what car you're putting this in but the real consideration for me would be packing constraints. I had an NA manifold J-pipe setup which was pretty tight clearances all around.... takes up a lot of room. Whatever you design, make it such that you can get things in and out without having to invent or fabricate special tools that work on one and only only bolt.

all hail the kludge pipe... (BTW that's an old T3 60 trim machined for a t4oe 50 trim wheel and the turbine housing for a stage 3 wheel.)


edit... if you do the j-pipe to the NA manifold... which is super easy... brace the hell out of it. It's the equivalent of holding a 100 pound weight out at arms length... it's begging to fall off. Oh... and if you do consider the j-pipe, then the turbo you want is the EVO8 16g6.... check out Sam's (deathwagon) setup from years ago.

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Old 02-24-2021, 10:13 AM   #6
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I'd ditch that pos ebay intercooler and get something that will actually cool that charges air. Something from Treadstone or Garrett.

The group A cars made 350hp on the "old" exhaust manifold. A ported 90+ to match a t3/t4 50 trim would get you there.

On E85 boost that bitch to the moon.
I've held a treadstone core that looked identical to a CX Racing core..
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Old 02-24-2021, 07:13 PM   #7
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Thanks for the info. Not trying to invent the wheel. Over last few weeks of bad weather I got bored and built a J pipe. And done some swaping here and there.
So, I have all three options available. Plus, I have a Evo 8 turbo with upgraded turbine housing (9), GTX3076r (ebay but still ball bearing) and a GT2971(dont know much about but has t28 flange). The header is decent probably equal length diffently custom built. So been kinda stumped what to run. Keep in mind I have 3 volvo 240s. So extra parts wont go to waste. But focusing on the best car at this time. Here my set up.

Kl racing intake
ported head with o.s. valves
3 inch ex.
RSI stage 3 cam advanced 4
AW71 seems to be holding up
3.73 gear posi
8.8 to 1 comp. Low milage engine. With H beam rods.
ebay 3 inch intercooler (I know gonna get a KL or treads.)
E85 w/1000cc injectors.

My goal- is to beat 2008 corvette at the track. High 12 would diffently do it or maybe low 13.
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Old 02-25-2021, 03:22 AM   #8
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You need the biggest turbo to beat that vette. Gtx3076r fits your bill...
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Old 02-25-2021, 03:00 PM   #9
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RoadRacer4Life ran a J pipe/na mani early on in the DeathWagon thread when it was still a reblock.
IIRC he had pretty good results.

Josh at Yoshifab apparently made really good power on a ported 90+ on both a 8v and 16v.

For packaging a bigger turbo, I'd argue the J pipe/na mani is superior because it gives the opportunity for some twin scroll action and raises it way up versus the 90+ down low.
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Old 06-26-2021, 10:36 AM   #10
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What is wrong with having the turbo down low besides packaging?
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Old 06-26-2021, 11:48 AM   #11
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Ditching the 90+ is worth 20-30whp depending on what you replace it with.

Ideally the evo8/9 16G on a J pipe or custom manifold should be good for over 350whp without to much effort. With enough traction that is easy a low 12 sec car. This will beat a stock 2008 Corvette at the track, but from a roll on the street he will still have you on the big end but it will be close.

Having the turbo down low sucks when it comes to the oil filter and relocation kit, not a lot of space down there.

We did this on a 240 with a oil filter relocation kit.




IIRC this manifold with a evo8 16g made 360whp and 450ft lb torque on MS with a stock intake manifold.
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Old 06-29-2021, 11:38 AM   #12
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I went with a custom header, there was no problems with the plug wires, and you can always put heat sleeves on them if it turns out to be a problem.

I used an internal wastegate exhaust housing and mounted the wastegate on the down pipe.

Lessons learned: do not use studs, use bolts on the turbo mounting flange. And skip the header wrap, that stuff doesn't last long and then makes a huge itchy mess.





Does someone make those or did you have it made? All the headers I can find online bring the turbo to the front of the engine bay and I rather keep it in it’s stock location
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Old 06-29-2021, 03:10 PM   #13
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just buy a $600 header from sweden exhaust or cm-racing and slam a holset he351 on it...known good/cheap/reliable combo
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Old 06-30-2021, 11:05 PM   #14
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I've held a treadstone core that looked identical to a CX Racing core..
CX on left (with diverter added by me) Treadstone on right (comes with diverter)



My experience was that the Treadstone allowed me to make more power. It's been at least 6 years since I ran that setup, so I don't recall the specifics. I logged temps pre & post IC, and the Treadstone outperformed the CX. This was with a PTE 6266.
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Old 06-30-2021, 11:06 PM   #15
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As a side question - I need to weld my 90 cast turbo manifold - it has about a 1/4-3/8" crack on #3 runner into the collector.

Anyone have experience with this?

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Old 06-30-2021, 11:23 PM   #16
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josh at yoshifab does, reach out to him. I believe he uses some kind of nickel filler rod
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:01 AM   #17
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If I could weld up my own at only the expense of cheap steel I wound not pay 600 dollars for an exhaust header unless it brings a significant marque of improvement over what can be built. It better be beautiful too. You have all the time in the world to come up with something that works why kick half a stack. None of these ideas mentioned will hinder him from 300 hp. but why is that always the target. I get lost with this because If a person can weld one up they can virtually copy any design they see. You can damn near buy the welder at that price. In my mind it would be better to use a tig for this. For 600 bucks make the header titanium please. But why worry about this at the hp levels he wants.

At Joe it can be welded but it requires a little experience working with iron. Try a muffler shop they see this kinda thing often. The silverado was like this i just took a trip to LKQ to solve it. Are you having issues finding 90 manifolds? we have a few specialized volvo yards in NC if you need a number I can get it to you and you can inquire. But you cannot ask for a +90 manifold you have to specify the year and model of the car it comes on then ask for the manifold for that make an year car.

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Old 07-01-2021, 01:12 PM   #18
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None of these ideas mentioned will hinder him from 300 hp. but why is that always the target.
Now this is a question that deserves an answer! 300 was a big deal 15+ years ago, that target should have moved up a bit by now.


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At Joe it can be welded but it requires a little experience working with iron. Try a muffler shop they see this kinda thing often. The silverado was like this i just took a trip to LKQ to solve it. Are you having issues finding 90 manifolds? we have a few specialized volvo yards in NC if you need a number I can get it to you and you can inquire. But you cannot ask for a +90 manifold you have to specify the year and model of the car it comes on then ask for the manifold for that make an year car.

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at this point in the game, most 90+ turbo manifolds have cracking in the same location (heck most of them were cracked 10 years ago), but for conversation's sake, it's any 92-95 turbo model exhaust manifold. may want to specify whether egr or non egr as well, some do have a bung in the #4 runner for egr.

side note on the silverado manifolds, assuming you're talking about the 99+ gm trucks, those things weld up easy and beautiful (fyi).
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Old 07-01-2021, 01:30 PM   #19
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Now this is a question that deserves an answer! 300 was a big deal 15+ years ago, that target should have moved up a bit by now.




at this point in the game, most 90+ turbo manifolds have cracking in the same location (heck most of them were cracked 10 years ago), but for conversation's sake, it's any 92-95 turbo model exhaust manifold. may want to specify whether egr or non egr as well, some do have a bung in the #4 runner for egr.

side note on the silverado manifolds, assuming you're talking about the 99+ gm trucks, those things weld up easy and beautiful (fyi).
Hmmm not trying to be funny but I think they do it because you guys have 300+ posted beside your names and that carries alot of weight for some people here. But would you not agree that its the 300 club members that should be setting higher goals and posting higher numbers with their avatars first ? Shouldn't they have certainly grown in 15 years? Kinda difficult when you give up and go the LS route....the easy way.

The Truck in question was actually a 94 im not sure there alot of difference there i know 96 are about the same but some have an boss for 02 and some didnt but I just went a grabbed one not broken from the jy.
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Old 07-01-2021, 01:47 PM   #20
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Hmmm not trying to be funny but I think they do it because you guys have 300+ posted beside your names and that carries alot of weight for some people here. But would you not agree that its the 300 club members that should be setting higher goals and posting higher numbers with their avatars first ? Shouldn't they have certainly grown in 15 years? Kinda difficult when you give up and go the LS route....the easy way.
Some have given up and gone the LS route, and to a certain degree, why not-it's easy. the 300+ club thing is the only one, that's part of why that's there. It was proposed to create more of them a bit back, but then folks started getting upset about who got to claim what based on _____________, and I don't think the discussion moved from there.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=358715

Dana would need to opine on that, but I'm all for it.

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The Truck in question was actually a 94 im not sure there alot of difference there i know 96 are about the same but some have an boss for 02 and some didnt but I just went a grabbed one not broken from the jy.
gotcha. sometimes easier is just easier.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:04 PM   #21
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Some have given up and gone the LS route, and to a certain degree, why not-it's easy. the 300+ club thing is the only one, that's part of why that's there. It was proposed to create more of them a bit back, but then folks started getting upset about who got to claim what based on _____________, and I don't think the discussion moved from there.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=358715

Dana would need to opine on that, but I'm all for it.



gotcha. sometimes easier is just easier.
The reason you don't do this as a volvo tuner is because it isnt a volvo anymore and an entirely different knowledge base is needed to deal with the LS motor. In short it takes more finite skill and cash to push the volvo 4 cylinder to levels well above 300. To me it requires more know how . Throwing an 8 cylinder in it is about the oldest trick in the world to make bodies that originally had a 4 cylinder in it to go faster. I don't really want a volvo that sounds like a Camaro....If I want that Ill buy a Camaro with much better suspension. If the european tuners can extract higher levels from the VOLVO engines why cannot we without GMs help?

I dont get the argument. A certified and verified dyno run video should be valid enuf for anyone but the board is excessive and zany and that continues to be pointed out to you. The other problem with that is the people who have accomplished it trying to keep it an elitist club by denying others who have reached that level into the club without all that extra **** they needed to provide to their superior asses. They take it all more serious than is really is so I'm sure for them God almighty himself needs to sign off for it to be valid. Thats why some of us dont care about it and do not post based on what we have accomplished on a dyno.

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Old 07-01-2021, 02:10 PM   #22
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we can. some of us do. some of us also like to have fun and not fool with things constantly (that apparently is not me though, I can't seem to leave well enough alone even when it's good) There's not a lot of sub 12 second volvo powered volvos floating around on the forum, and that becomes more and more rare air if you will the further you go (although I'll say this.. a decent setup with 350ish hp should be a low 12 to high 11 on a good night at the track). the badging hasn't kept up, partially because it's such a small group I think (although the 300+ club was pretty small when it got started as well)
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:11 PM   #23
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we can. some of us do. some of us also like to have fun and not fool with things constantly (that apparently is not me though, I can't seem to leave well enough alone even when it's good) There's not a lot of sub 12 second volvo powered volvos floating around on the forum, and that becomes more and more rare air if you will the further you go (although I'll say this.. a decent setup with 350ish hp should be a low 12 to high 11 on a good night at the track). the badging hasn't kept up, partially because it's such a small group I think (although the 300+ club was pretty small when it got started as well)
The problem I have is there are some people here that do not talk at all and are really experts because the board is sometimes dominated by certain individuals that are not as sharp as the think they and they are run off by them because it simply isn't worth it many times for people that have lives outside of needing to be the guru here.

Im surprised for volvo tuners the the ECO club isnt more attractive as an accomplishment but thats just me. You can shove alot of boost and fuel in there and make power, but making it more efficiently is an accomplishment any tuner could be proud of. However I have no issue with a 300 club. Im sure its started out as a group goal wed like to see everyone at but somehow I think it is used as a I know what Im talking about metric instead and that makes it really unattractive. For one thing a poster may not have really nothing to do with why his engines makes power because power can be brought from someone else. U dont need to be an expert to have a 300hp volvo because you can simply buy one post the dyno chart and stick your tongue out. A silly metric easily circumvented by people with long pockets. Of course there will come potential value from some who has done it but the presentation of it and a real explanation of why you do something a certain way is alot more convincing and helpful than a badge beneath a handle.
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Old 07-01-2021, 06:10 PM   #24
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The problem I have is there are some people here that do not talk at all and are really experts because the board is sometimes dominated by certain individuals that are not as sharp as the think they and they are run off by them because it simply isn't worth it many times for people that have lives outside of needing to be the guru here.

Im surprised for volvo tuners the the ECO club isnt more attractive as an accomplishment but thats just me. You can shove alot of boost and fuel in there and make power, but making it more efficiently is an accomplishment any tuner could be proud of. However I have no issue with a 300 club. Im sure its started out as a group goal wed like to see everyone at but somehow I think it is used as a I know what Im talking about metric instead and that makes it really unattractive. For one thing a poster may not have really nothing to do with why his engines makes power because power can be brought from someone else. U dont need to be an expert to have a 300hp volvo because you can simply buy one post the dyno chart and stick your tongue out. A silly metric easily circumvented by people with long pockets. Of course there will come potential value from some who has done it but the presentation of it and a real explanation of why you do something a certain way is alot more convincing and helpful than a badge beneath a handle.
That paradigm exists everywhere, any time you get a group of people together, and I can think of dozens of reasons why people don't wax poetic in every thread about performance (the term 'search noob' comes to mind, a callous way of suggesting that the person asking the questions-which could be considered basic invest a bit in their own problem and spend some time learning first). I'm not an expert on all things, but I have been tweaking and tuning and breaking volvos for comfortably over two decades now, and if you happen to catch me in a serious discussion about something-something that doesn't happen all that frequently on the forum anymore unfortunately for a variety of reasons-it would be a reasonable assumption that it's something I've probably done or used or had to deal with along the way. That list is long and distinguished and littered with the charred remnants of many old dogmas that used to be gospel that people before me would quite angrily defend. It's honestly been a long time since anyone's gotten me worked up about anything like that, but I'll also freely admit that threads that have gone sideways are fairly entertaining in the mean time both as a spectator and participant.

Personality and inflection are things that are easily lost in text, and if we dulled the forum down to nothing but rote mechanics, it'd be boring and little more than rehashed information that's fairly universally applicable (more air and fuel in, more power out, yay science), so spending time and trying to learn some of the personalities falls on the end-user.

Regarding the 300+ badge, there is no perfect system to sort out who knows what they're talking about (and may or may not just be having fun at another individual's expense in a given thread) or not, but it unfortunately remains a measuring stick for relative amounts of knowledge-if largely out of context. I would say though, that when we do the East v West on a regular basis and things like that, it gets a bit easier to pick out who what why where and how without asking questions or digging through years of info on the forum. But that's kind of faded recently as well. There's plenty of information floating around on the forum though, and plenty of discussion about why things were done a certain way, etc. Most of mine is documented to a greater or lesser extent in my project threads, and many other peoples' is as well.

I suppose that's what happens when you have a decade or so of people joining, asking how much boost they can run on a stock setup, and then skipping on out to something else when it doesn't magically make 10,000hp. Not to a person obviously, but enough that there's memes about it.
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Old 07-01-2021, 07:06 PM   #25
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That paradigm exists everywhere, any time you get a group of people together, and I can think of dozens of reasons why people don't wax poetic in every thread about performance (the term 'search noob' comes to mind, a callous way of suggesting that the person asking the questions-which could be considered basic invest a bit in their own problem and spend some time learning first). I'm not an expert on all things, but I have been tweaking and tuning and breaking volvos for comfortably over two decades now, and if you happen to catch me in a serious discussion about something-something that doesn't happen all that frequently on the forum anymore unfortunately for a variety of reasons-it would be a reasonable assumption that it's something I've probably done or used or had to deal with along the way. That list is long and distinguished and littered with the charred remnants of many old dogmas that used to be gospel that people before me would quite angrily defend. It's honestly been a long time since anyone's gotten me worked up about anything like that, but I'll also freely admit that threads that have gone sideways are fairly entertaining in the mean time both as a spectator and participant.

Personality and inflection are things that are easily lost in text, and if we dulled the forum down to nothing but rote mechanics, it'd be boring and little more than rehashed information that's fairly universally applicable (more air and fuel in, more power out, yay science), so spending time and trying to learn some of the personalities falls on the end-user.

Regarding the 300+ badge, there is no perfect system to sort out who knows what they're talking about (and may or may not just be having fun at another individual's expense in a given thread) or not, but it unfortunately remains a measuring stick for relative amounts of knowledge-if largely out of context. I would say though, that when we do the East v West on a regular basis and things like that, it gets a bit easier to pick out who what why where and how without asking questions or digging through years of info on the forum. But that's kind of faded recently as well. There's plenty of information floating around on the forum though, and plenty of discussion about why things were done a certain way, etc. Most of mine is documented to a greater or lesser extent in my project threads, and many other peoples' is as well.

I suppose that's what happens when you have a decade or so of people joining, asking how much boost they can run on a stock setup, and then skipping on out to something else when it doesn't magically make 10,000hp. Not to a person obviously, but enough that there's memes about it.

I disagree fundamentally with alot you've said. My response to this is in OT its time to move on in the performance section.
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