home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-02-2022, 05:24 PM   #1
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Turbo CIS metering heads

Did all the Turbo CIS 200 series metering heads feature lambda / frequency valve systems?

Is it possible to just install a fixed position valve in place of the FV and run it like CIS-basic?
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2022, 05:32 PM   #2
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

Same as simply disconnecting the frequency valve. You may want to check/dial in the base CO level using gas analyzer. The Cat will likely be ruined in case you are still running it.
__________________
🇺🇦
Feedback: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=341280
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2022, 07:38 PM   #3
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

Here is why that is a bad idea. Your lambda system is what give the engine enrichment under boost. Disconnect the lambda and you lose boost enrichment which will make the engine lean under boost probably causing dollars to fly out of your wallet.

If you really want a kjet basic setup. You will have to use something like a boost enrichment warmup regulator which is
what the kjet B21ET uses because it is kjet basic. 155hp stock
no intercooler.
__________________
Dave,
1982 242 turbo. 338k miles. MVP coilovers and 3" exhaust. Flowed 405 with a V15. Cossie turbine housing with upgraded compressor housing. 90+, IPD remote oil filter. Some other goodness, too. Been lots of fun over 25 years. Restored in 2k. Now ready for a 2nd restoration.

1993 245 Classic, 440k miles, enem V15. IPD bars and chassis braces. Simons sport exhaust from Scandix. sbabbs ezk chip. Been a good road warrior. Genuine Volvo rebuilt leaky M47.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2022, 07:54 PM   #4
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

Didn't all US turbos come with boost enrichment warm up pressure regulators for that purpose?
So under boost does the ECU completely shuts down the frequency valve or does it go into some kind of fixed dwell open loop?
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2022, 08:01 PM   #5
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCH View Post
Didn't all US turbos come with boost enrichment warm up pressure regulators for that purpose?
So under boost does the ECU completely shuts down the frequency valve or does it go into some kind of fixed dwell open loop?
First question. No they use a cold running enrichment on the warmup regulator
on the US B21FT. After warmup the function is shut off with a thermal valve.
Second question. Under boost the boost enrichment switch when grounded at 2.9psi
it switches to an open loop fixed dwell as you suspect. If I recall it's about 75-80 degrees
when grounding terminal 7. You can also do the terminal 11 mod for a lot more fuel.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2022, 08:41 PM   #6
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

Yeah, I remember that now. I've played with Porsche 924 and Audi Turbo WUR's and with some vacuum line modifications the boost enrichment worked fine. I still believe you can activate cold running enrichment under boost on the stock Volvo Turbo WUR by doing some vac line rerouting. I ended up modifying the one from MBZ with dual vacuum chambers to make it adjustable.
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2022, 04:36 AM   #7
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default

Thanks for the replies.

I have a warm up regulator that drops the control pressure on the transition from vacuum to positive pressure (from ~4 to ~3 bar) so that's what I'm relying on for my boost enrichment. The project is actually a Porsche 924 with a supercharger, if anyone's curious. But there just isn't enough flow potential in my little 4-cyl FD, although the AFR are lovely 15 cruise and 12 boost until the air plate tops out at 5000 rpm.

The Volvo unit would bolt straight up to my airbox and hopefully Just Work to eliminate my fuel bottleneck.

How can I tell a CIS-Lambda metering head from a CIS-Basic metering head?
I have these part numbers down as being the Volvo Turbo metering heads:

0438100093
0438100115


0438100094
0438100114


I'm guessing the -94 and -114 are the Lambda version with their extra port and the -93 and -115 are the Basic. Right?
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2022, 09:36 AM   #8
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

Look into Porsche 924 GTS Clubsport. They used 8 cylinder CIS fuel distributor with 2 ports merged into single injector. That's how they got enough gas flow.




Last edited by PCH; 08-03-2022 at 11:47 AM..
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2022, 12:46 PM   #9
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default

I did think about it but the CGTS CS has 270 fwhp, it's massive overkill for my supercharged setup - my goal is only around 200 fwhp... although I probably need the same fueling as a 220fwhp Turbo car to make that happen due to the supercharger inefficiency. Is that in reach for the Volvo CIS-basic?

The Volvo Turbo distributor and AFM are easier technically: It's up-draft so it will bolt straight to my airbox and connect to my supercharger inlet pipes without making any changes except to bend the fuel lines a bit to fit. All the 8-cylinder ones are down-draft so they'd require completely new intake pipes and a custom airbox. Same with the 924 Turbo FD/AFM.

Also, looking at the projects threads here the space in the engine bay of these Volvos makes me extremely jealous.
Used to have a 240 estate once upon a time, incredibly comfortable car but wasn't a Turbo so not very fast and that was before I got into working on cars.
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2022, 01:28 PM   #10
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

Just plug the frequency valve ports on the head- that will give you max pressure in the lower chamber. You can also play with the system pressure regulator shims to get more fuel to the injectors. Hope someone chimes in with the part number reference for the heads- in the US we only had Lambda Turbos.
Group A 240 cars had 8 port fuel distributors I believe but with only 4 ports used. The pintle inside all distributors moves the same way regardless of up-draft or downdraft- they just change the position of the pivot on the arm.
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2022, 04:15 PM   #11
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

Another cool thing they used on the GrpA cars was the pressure activated fuel regulator they used on the control pressure regulator fitting on the top of the fuel distributor. I believe it was to drop control pressure under boost for max enrichment.

I have an Audi 5k turbo control pressure regulator that is boost enrichment type. I think the bosch number ends with 094.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2022, 04:38 PM   #12
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

The head with 3 hole flange is for Lambda equipped cars.

Another trick is to to plumb the control pressure line to the cold start injector that you can activate with the preset boost pressure switch. The only problem is that not all dry type manifolds will distribute the added fuel evenly between all cylinders when sprayed from the cold start injector.
The beauty of K-jet is that you can put a system together from many different sources. Don't forget BMW's- they also had that and I've used their parts both on my Volvo and air cooled VW conversions.
From what I see about 220HP is within range for the Turbo 6 hole fuel distributor. There are few older threads about it's potentials and limitations on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
Another cool thing they used on the GrpA cars was the pressure activated fuel regulator they used on the control pressure regulator fitting on the top of the fuel distributor. I believe it was to drop control pressure under boost for max enrichment.
I think that you can also see that regulator present in the Porsche pictures I posted above.

Last edited by PCH; 08-03-2022 at 07:46 PM..
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2022, 08:21 AM   #13
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default

It'll probably easier to get a CIS-Basic head in Europe than a Lambda head. If I can get 220hp without any major changes on a CIS-Basic head I'd be very happy because pretty much everything on the car bottlenecks around that level anyway.

I have a regulator that looks the same, it came from a VW Golf Mk2 GTI.
Normally it runs at 2.8 bar but when you apply any vacuum at all (even just -0.1 bar) to the port on the side it goes to 3.6 bar. You can also adjust those numbers by tapping parts of it in or out. It works well to get the AFR down from 14.5 on cruise (vacuum) to 12.0 (boost).

The 924 manifold won't give good fuel distribution with the cold start injector in the stock position as it's at the extreme right end of the manifold and will only really spray into cylinders 3 and 4. I'd have to move it to the throttle body or something. I think better than activating it with a pressure switch is to add a micro switch in the air flow meter that closes when the plate reaches its maximum travel.
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2022, 01:33 PM   #14
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

Yes, I see that regulator connected to the control pressure port. The control regulator you describe with the vacuum change is working the opposite of what you want. You want one that activates with pressure and it lowers the control pressure. That's why I suggested the Audi 5k control regulator.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2022, 02:06 PM   #15
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
Yes, I see that regulator connected to the control pressure port. The control regulator you describe with the vacuum change is working the opposite of what you want. You want one that activates with pressure and it lowers the control pressure. That's why I suggested the Audi 5k control regulator.

Certainly it did make a great improvement on my car compared to the stock regulator with no vaccum port. I think it works the opposite way as the Audi 5K to achieve the same result in the end?

Mine has the "on-boost" control pressure 2.8 bar as the default pressure (line disconnected) and increases it to 3.8 bar when you apply a vacuum to get a leaner mix for cruising.

The Audi 5000 has the higher lean cruise control pressure as default (line disconnected) and decrease the control pressure when you apply boost to get a richer mix for boosting.





Anyway I also found this data from Bosch for all five of the existant "6 ports with 2 blocked" style fuel distributors:

Metering Heads Vehicle Lambda cm3/m
438100057 Saab 900/99T 8V No ???
438100093 Volvo 200 Turbo No 272
438100094 Volvo 200 Turbo Yes 236
438100114 Volvo 200 Turbo Yes 236
438100115 Volvo 200 Turbo No 248

The 094 and 114 look identical and have identical specifications, they're the Lambda distributors and they go on the B21FT for sure.

The 093 and 115 are confusing, because they are given as interchangeable for all years of the B21ET engine but they have different specs. It might be something to do with the rare B19ET engine but I'm not sure. Any thoughts?
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2022, 06:41 PM   #16
PCH
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oxnard, SoCal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D924 View Post
I think better than activating it with a pressure switch is to add a micro switch in the air flow meter that closes when the plate reaches its maximum travel.
I would wire that switch to the red light on the dash because you don't want to push it no more once the funnel plate maxed out.
PCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2022, 01:06 PM   #17
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

The ones for the B21ET are probably different from the early non intercooled version to the newer intercooler installed at the factory version. Probably flows a bit more fuel?
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2022, 12:42 PM   #18
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default

In the end I found a deal on the Saab Turbo unit -057 that I couldn't really miss. Can't really be picky on such rare stuff, could be months or years between these things showing up for sale.
The metering head looks externally identical to the Volvo -093 and -115, but the air flow cone is different.

Both are 80mm at the bottom, but the Volvo one has a concave shape (made of four machined segments), with a top diameter of what looks like 130mm, whereas the Saab 057 has a straight sided cone up to around 125mm at the top. Does suggest the Saab unit probably flows less fuel - or it's designed to run extremely rich!

Does anyone have the control pressure specification for the B21ET? It could be the Saab used a higher control pressure to compensate for the steep sided bowl.
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2022, 02:26 PM   #19
dl242gt
Old and boxy but good.
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

You would have to find the green book on the B21ET to get that spec. It's a rare control pressure regulator. I've not been able to find the bosch part number for it. Try searching the green books on ozvolvo.org.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2022, 03:00 PM   #20
D924
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default

Thanks, I found the green book, so the spec is 3.6 +/- 0.15 bar off boost and 2.8 +/- 0.15 bar on boost. The Saab seems to be 3.6 / 2.4. My current WUR does 3.6 / 2.8. Only one way to find out how well it works, I suppose.

The hard part will be adapting the plumbing for my 4 cylinder distributor to fit the slightly different port locations on the 6-cyl distributor. Once that's done I can easily swap in an -093 as and when I find one for sale - if it's needed!
D924 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.