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EV turbobrick - the turbobrick way?

Before jumping into a Curtis controller, I will caution you that they cannot be used with just any e-motor. They've made it so you have to send in your particular EM and have their controller setup to it.
Downside, it's expensive if you are using a motor that has not been used with a Curtis controller.
Upside, it takes about 5min of setup to get a EM moving with their controllers.

You can also buy the controller direct, as well as the Motenergy motors, this will save you ~$500-800 usually.

Some of the legacy AC curtis controllers can run a PMAC or AC motor without sending the EM to the factory, but they're just not as efficient. This is what Thunderstruck does with their 16kW brushless kit, which is still a really good kit to be used as supplied!

If you want something more megasquirt-y, I'd recommend a Vedder or Sevcon as they are fully user configurable with respect to the motor type and physics.
Something like a 250 or 300A controller should be more than adequate for the DIY'er doing a hydrid system: https://trampaboards.com/vesc--c-1434.html
 
Can you tune a hybrid setup if the gas engine uses a traditional cable actuated throttle body? Seems like it would be pretty difficult since the airflow isn't electronically adjustable, and the power contribution from the electric motor will vary greatly.

[In other words, is step 0 of a hybrid conversion to convert the gas engine to DBW throttle, with a fancy DBW-capable aftermarket ECU?]
 
I think that would mean electrical motor is the engine's support staff. Ex: you mash the pedal you know where throttle is and that the engine will take some time to get to open wide mode. So you can tell the motor to fill the gaps in the engine's curve and reaction time
 
bobxyz said:
Can you tune a hybrid setup if the gas engine uses a traditional cable actuated throttle body? Seems like it would be pretty difficult since the airflow isn't electronically adjustable, and the power contribution from the electric motor will vary greatly.

[In other words, is step 0 of a hybrid conversion to convert the gas engine to DBW throttle, with a fancy DBW-capable aftermarket ECU?]
Click to expand...

I wouldnt even go there if you have stand alone running on the IC. Megasquirt2 and up will broadcast engine state over the CAN bus. So taking an arduino, and feeding in your engines current state from the MS (well, select messages like current VE table location, accel TPSdot or MAPdot active/inactive and %enrich, etc) and having arduino convert that into commands to the inverter. Then you have tabled commands based off the engines whereabouts. So engine speed 3000rpm@220kpa tells controller I need you to give me 300nm of tq. Or tip in override, 300nm+%based off of accel enrich.

Go one step further and have an arduino sending command adjustments based of pack state of charge. Having it make adjustments to regen, and tq values based off the were the pack is. Kinda like youd do with CLT/AIT correction.

The difficult part would be tuning.
 
Thanks, that setup makes sense and is much easier than converting to a DBW throttle. As you say, tuning may be difficult. If it helps, in theory, you can tune MegaSquirt to do accel enrichment using only MAPdot. This frees up the TPSdot table for use by the electric assist system. You'd need to run the original TPS signal through the Arduino, and modify it as needed for the desired TPSdot accel/decel fueling corrections before sending it on to the MegaSquirt.

cwdodson88 said:
Megasquirt2 and up will broadcast engine state over the CAN bus. So taking an arduino, and feeding in your engines current state from the MS...
Click to expand...
Yeah, "been there done it already..." Hasn't everyone? :-P I'd post the pictures but <strike>the dog</strike> photobucket ate them.















Nothing to see here now, please move along.














Just to prove that I'm no fool, here are the re-hosted pics (click for bigger). TBH, this is just snooping the MS dashboard broadcasts, it's not sending/receiving CANbus commands to MS.
 
culberro said:
Before jumping into a Curtis controller, I will caution you that they cannot be used with just any e-motor. They've made it so you have to send in your particular EM and have their controller setup to it.
Downside, it's expensive if you are using a motor that has not been used with a Curtis controller.
Upside, it takes about 5min of setup to get a EM moving with their controllers.

You can also buy the controller direct, as well as the Motenergy motors, this will save you ~$500-800 usually.

Some of the legacy AC curtis controllers can run a PMAC or AC motor without sending the EM to the factory, but they're just not as efficient. This is what Thunderstruck does with their 16kW brushless kit, which is still a really good kit to be used as supplied!

If you want something more megasquirt-y, I'd recommend a Vedder or Sevcon as they are fully user configurable with respect to the motor type and physics.
Something like a 250 or 300A controller should be more than adequate for the DIY'er doing a hydrid system: https://trampaboards.com/vesc--c-1434.html
Click to expand...

A PMAC is an AC motor. You sure you don't mean induction or an SR machine as the other earth less alternative :-P You need send your motor to curtis simply to enter in motor parameters in the inverter for you?? All your experience and u dont know how to acquire a motors parameters and enter them for yourself? If they charge alot for that and you pay thats tragic assemblers blues.... :oops:

Swedebrick....

At 16 kw and these price points there are much better controllers out there. SR machines are also noisy as compared to the other machines. They also dont have the torque density of PM machines.

A 26 hp gas assist is the turbobricks way with your budget . I love it.....I rather run 10's. This is going to be miss Daisy's car. What an "EV" just use the stock alternator. Its already installed....

rofl.gif
 
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I’m back from vacation (moving something huge as a favor to a turbobricks member) and it seems i missed all the bragging and ****ting all over this thread.
Hugh, please use people’s actual names when you refer to them. Do not call them idiots. Do not act condescending or insulting. And keep it on topic.
 
bobxyz said:
Thanks, that setup makes sense and is much easier than converting to a DBW throttle. As you say, tuning may be difficult. If it helps, in theory, you can tune MegaSquirt to do accel enrichment using only MAPdot. This frees up the TPSdot table for use by the electric assist system. You'd need to run the original TPS signal through the Arduino, and modify it as needed for the desired TPSdot accel/decel fueling corrections before sending it on to the MegaSquirt.
Yeah, "been there done it already..." Hasn't everyone? :-P I'd post the pictures but <strike>the dog</strike> photobucket ate them.

Just to prove that I'm no fool, here are the re-hosted pics (click for bigger). TBH, this is just snooping the MS dashboard broadcasts, it's not sending/receiving CANbus commands to MS.
Click to expand...

I was playing around with only using tpsDOT for positive torque tables, then straight overrun to pull negative tq. It’s a little harsh on those transitions and I think it would end up being jerky. So I started looking for ways to smooth it and came to the idea of being able to ramp in regen, and seems like a safer way to control energy flow back into the pack. Also nice to thought to have the emotor during sustained cruise and being able to lean out the ICE and gain some mpgs. So further development is in the works as far as setting tables and having a multiplier that uses state of charge to determine how much torque you get in either direction.

I just need my dyno at work freed up for a few evenings or weekends so I can get the controller and stim back on the rig for some more runs.
 
mikep said:
I’m back from vacation (moving something huge as a favor to a turbobricks member) and it seems i missed all the bragging and ****ting all over this thread.
Hugh, please use people’s actual names when you refer to them. Do not call them idiots. Do not act condescending or insulting. And keep it on topic.
Click to expand...

Its on topic and fact that the TPS used with most modern ECU's is in essence at potentiometer which is not at all difficult to use in a "throttle by wire" input for an inverter based of the mc33035 or many others out there. Potentiometers are the most basic form of controlling inverters speed input. It's really simple.. But all this for 25hp e assistance is a poor management of money when a couple of bolt on parts will add 25hp for few hundred dollars.
.
Which moderator will be the first to purchase a MS or AEM anything from scratch to control a 26 hp e assist for well over 3 grand with a marginal controller? The idea is truly preposterous and having an opinion based on real experience in inverter and motor design isnt against any rules. When people make false claims about IC etc they set themselves up for the red face. :oops: So that is not my fault... Its no different with the ferrofluid or cryogenic cooling. They spoke on what they do not know about and were corrected.
4u02syh.png


Tell me Mike how can a HIGH QUALITY "curtis" have two RMS ratings for the same model controller? 190 amps rms times sqrt of 2 certainly isn't 550 amperes....:oogle: And if it can only run its rms amperage for 52-60 min how far can you drive it under significant load? :grrr: Im sorry Mike but if a person cannot see the suspect in these controller specifications I don't have any other word to describe it but idiotic. All this advice has come with not one graph of efficiency or expected performance gain from the editors. All the MS and AEM chatter just sound like Swedbrick is being used to try someone else's hardly EV ideas that are not needed and a waste of limited cash. Neither of the editors have shown a single efficiency graph from anything THEY personally have created in this regard and will not use these suggestions in their own EV's because they and the companies they assemble for know nothing happens significantly at 3 racks off the shelf or in a JY....:roll:

I cannot do anything but laugh. It is just that simple Mike. But trust me I do not plan to waste my time to post any more real facts here. Its a wash and I stand by that. The suggestion to just use the alternator for e assist was a real one. You see not a bolts or been turned in any direction. You also see not a single thing EV has been purchased off the shelf or from a JY! Thats a clear indication the turbobricks way is a long way off from "EV" reality my friend. The editors should show him how its done and post a few graph of the result in the 25 hp performance upgrade at a price point unit per hp. That seems fair in any argument about the viability or practicality of TB bricks way. Even the Chinese EV stuff isnt cheap pricewise and that is just more reality they may as well swallow whole no matter what I post. Swedebrick wont spend over 3000 dollars for a 26 hp e assist unless hes cuu cuu for cocoa puffs and you wouldn't either...​
.

Regards
Hubert
 
hk 40 said:
Its on topic and fact that the TPS used with most modern ECU's is in essence at potentiometer which is not at all difficult to use in a "throttle by wire" input for an inverter based of the mc33035 or many others out there. Potentiometers are the most basic form of controlling inverters speed input. It's really simple.. But all this for 25hp e assistance is a poor management of money when a couple of bolt on parts will add 25hp for few hundred dollars.
.
Which moderator will be the first to purchase a MS or AEM anything from scratch to control a 26 hp e assist for well over 3 grand with a marginal controller? The idea is truly preposterous and having an opinion based on real experience in inverter and motor design isnt against any rules. When people make false claims about IC etc they set themselves up for the red face. :oops: So that is not my fault... Its no different with the ferrofluid or cryogenic cooling. They spoke on what they do not know about and were corrected.
4u02syh.png


Tell me Mike how can a HIGH QUALITY "curtis" have two RMS ratings for the same model controller? 190 amps rms times sqrt of 2 certainly isn't 550 amperes....:oogle: And if it can only run its rms amperage for 52-60 min how far can you drive it under significant load? :grrr: Im sorry Mike but if a person cannot see the suspect in these controller specifications I don't have any other word to describe it but idiotic. All this advice has come with not one graph of efficiency or expected performance gain from the editors. All the MS and AEM chatter just sound like Swedbrick is being used to try someone else's hardly EV ideas that are not needed and a waste of limited cash. Neither of the editors have shown a single efficiency graph from anything THEY personally have created in this regard and will not use these suggestions in their own EV's because they and the companies they assemble for know nothing happens significantly at 3 racks off the shelf or in a JY....:roll:

I cannot do anything but laugh. It is just that simple Mike. But trust me I do not plan to waste my time to post any more real facts here. Its a wash and I stand by that. The suggestion to just use the alternator for e assist was a real one. You see not a bolts or been turned in any direction. You also see not a single thing EV has been purchased off the shelf or from a JY! Thats a clear indication the turbobricks way is a long way off from "EV" reality my friend. The editors should show him how its done and post a few graph of the result in the 25 hp performance upgrade at a price point unit per hp. That seems fair in any argument about the viability or practicality of TB bricks way. Even the Chinese EV stuff isnt cheap pricewise and that is just more reality they may as well swallow whole no matter what I post. Swedebrick wont spend over 3000 dollars for a 26 hp e assist unless hes cuu cuu for cocoa puffs and you wouldn't either...​
.

Regards
Hubert
Click to expand...

You will have a week off to laugh to your heart's content. During that time, try to figure out what condescending means before making any more posts anywhere on this board. Your next post could be your last. Something to think about.
 
dalek said:
What about the electric motor sandwiched between the Honda Insight's engine and transmission?
Click to expand...

Swedbrick said:
What about stacking them, given the 2 sided flange, with a few at 13hp each.
Click to expand...

The housing wouldn't be diy-friendly. It's built in to the bellhousing area of the motor. you'd have to either rebuild the stator housing from scratch, or figure out a way to slice it off the engine block.

On the plus side, there's a K-swapped Insights facebook group. I would imagine there's some nearly free insight motors to be had from those guys.


Also, the Insight's e-motor was reported to be 13 horse, but nobody really knows for sure and all the experiments done to run it harder and longer never approached it's breaking point thermally. It's fairly large. It may be able to be run indefinitely at 50+ HP but nobody yet knows.
 
dalek said:
I too wonder how much more power you can get out of that insight if you come up with a cooling system for it.
Click to expand...

It?s definitely surprising how much more time at current you get when you can keep things cool.

I will admit, after some research into hk40?s ferrofluid ideas, it?s got a positive trajectory. I think that it?s possible that something like that could work. I?d just be interested in seeing what that would do long term to the insulation. Both of the ferrofluid itself and the windings, not to mention bearings. Seems likely that some breakdown would be inevitable. But I dunno, I?m not a doctor.

With the insight motor, it?d be neat to see one fully housed so you could use spray flooded, with a tidy dry sump system between the crank>flywheel or between clutch>transmission. But you know, I?m not a doctor and it?s not likely I?ve seen ideas like that anyway?
https://youtu.be/IzhvaGnEkJo
Oh? well hmmm. The fuk is that?
 
The Insight motor was always going to be used in a hostile environment, being sandwiched between the motor and the clutch with no air flow. I'm guessing that with the most basic air cooling it could be pushed pretty hard as-is.
 
Looks like the civic hybrid motor is a little more betterer than the insight for high voltages and speeds, and looking at both packages, it does look like it’d be hard to go liquid cooled if you’re good with cad and have access to a mill. Pull the guts, machine a few parts. I’d do a 4 piece case. Inner case with some jets to spray the windings, outer case for pressure channels and scav area, then a front and rear cover that would seal it on both ends. Looks like it’s an open center shaft, might need to add a couple adapters on both sides to extend the shaft and deal with bearings/seals. Seems like it could be a good bit of power if cooling and packaging were dealt with.
 
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