84 turbo

Looking for advise as I am not made of money
Have a 84 t sedan, emerald green
Also have a 16v head
But, I also have some t5 bits and blocks

I will put my hands on a t5 trans

Here is where it gets weird.
1. I enjoy light weight, and a rigid frame/body.
2. So my choice it seems is at a 05-07 Ford Focus 2dr.
Of course whatever it will be, will be completely gutted.
Not sure if any of y'all could convince me of a 242. As I am sure the 242 is not as rigid.

And talk me out of the t5. Though I know it is out of the box as much hp per weight as a b23 with a 16v.

But maybe costs long term for 400 hp I am better off with the t5???

WTF?

2 completely different types of vehicles, FWD verses RWD?!

Is this for drifting, drag or just to hoon around the neighborhood?

How do you know you like a rigid body? (neither of your choices has a frame)

Why couldn't you make the 242 better? (INB4 I don't know how to weld)

Ruin the Ford until you supply some better info.

silly double tap!

If you get a Focus, make sure it's a split port.

It will be rwd, t5 & t5 = rwd
The question is, 2005-2007 focus 2dr vs 1979-1984 Volvo 2dr
I believe the focus will cooperate more closely to what I want because of the build structure. But will I really notice?
It may end up as a amature rally vehicle. and yes, I like fwd. but I like rwd more for rallying. Fwd for time trial stuff. And I won't time trial again.

h20ham said:

Looking for advise as I am not made of money
Have a 84 t sedan, emerald green
Also have a 16v head
But, I also have some t5 bits and blocks

I will put my hands on a t5 trans

Here is where it gets weird.
1. I enjoy light weight, and a rigid frame/body.
2. So my choice it seems is at a 05-07 Ford Focus 2dr.
Of course whatever it will be, will be completely gutted.
Not sure if any of y'all could convince me of a 242. As I am sure the 242 is not as rigid.

And talk me out of the t5. Though I know it is out of the box as much hp per weight as a b23 with a 16v.

But maybe costs long term for 400 hp I am better off with the t5???

Click to expand...

Your first line is all the reason to go 242 over Focus for what I think you're wanting to do? Redblock with Ford T5 in a focus?

Also what makes you think the 242 isn't rigid? There's easy upgrades to stiffen the chassis that cost practically nothing and help make the car pretty stiff.

I should/might ask grassroots motor sports mag this question
I am sure it it was the 84 engine, in a 79 242. It would have historic significance, even with the t5
From a cool car standpoint, the 242 wins of course. Welding all the seams, braces, lightening it would be a very competitive car.
A focus with twin t5's would be a scream too. Much less time reinforcing, much less cool factor

Is there a question being asked in this thread?

Trollololol

h20ham said:

I should/might ask grassroots motor sports mag this question
I am sure it it was the 84 engine, in a 79 242. It would have historic significance, even with the t5
From a cool car standpoint, the 242 wins of course. Welding all the seams, braces, lightening it would be a very competitive car.
A focus with twin t5's would be a scream too. Much less time reinforcing, much less cool factor

Click to expand...

All modern cars are stamped with the same steel. None are 'strong' the stitch welding and the integrated cage makes them strong--and in fact stronger than the shell or cage would be separately..

Forget the Focus. The Duratec engine is a nice nice nice engine as a platform to build..Just pistons, rods and the bottom is done, valve springs and cams and the top is done.. But
A car is not just the motor and this is even more true in a rally car...

What make a rally car a rally car isn't the engine, its the suspension--longer and softer than a roadrace car---the gears in the box and especially the final drive..

Grassroots Motorsport is not the place for well reasoned discussions, its where to ask how to build a 'Improved Touring" car or a auto-x theory of shaving 0.0002% time off by buying absurd fat tires.

Didn't catch in skimming if you were thinking of ditching the 4 cylinder Redblock..If you were thinking that then fine but just be aware it is a near ideal rally beginner or privateer--to any level---engine in terms of the cost in to get power out.
If you just have a burning desire to use a Whiteblock be conscious that it is a lotta work that could more wisely be put into making serious engine and trans and sumpguard mounts and adding a nice simple turret in the rear for mounting the shocks on the axle and running nice long travel coilovers...things that make the car work better and last longer.
The Redblock can make all the power a 2wd car will ever need.

There are many excellent rally Volvo build threads here and this is one. 22 year old guy who is a bicycle mechanic:
http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,83276

Thanks John V
Plan was/a 05-07 focus 2dr. But I may be swayed to a 242
The engine question is between A t5 or a b23ft 16v head (I appreciate the b block twink and longevity of the duratec). My 68 elan has a very responsive b
I would want a 5 speed trans and the t5 seems available and cheap
If I put a t5 engine and t5 transmission in a focus, I would be cutting into the firewall. I am sure to get 50/50 weight, I would need to do the same to the 242.

"What make a rally car a rally car isn't the engine, its the suspension--longer and softer than a roadrace car---the gears in the box and especially the final drive.."

And that is where the focus would be easier, as parts are available.
And I suspect testing would indicate a focus from 05-07 would be a good % more stiff
Like said, I will never be a pro. Although I sure loved sliding my fwd Saab na

You need to be made of money to be taking on this project.

AndrewNance said:

Is there a question being asked in this thread?

Click to expand...

This.

tryingbe said:

You need to be made of money to be taking on this project.

Click to expand...

Bring a bunch. Then double that amount. Racing is the best way that I know to turn money into noise.

h20ham said:

Thanks John V
Plan was/a 05-07 focus 2dr. But I may be swayed to a 242

Click to expand...

This weekend in Upstate New Yawk NASAs favortite NE event just ran: Black River Stages. A friend, Anders green from North Carolina was organiser.

Here's start list and results:

http://nasarallysport.com/results/2016-Black-River-Stages-entry-list.htm

http://nasarallysport.com/results/2016-Black-River-Stages-class-detail.htm

4th overall was an older Irish guy in a nice simple RWD Ford Escort...
normal aspirated, solid rear axle..
Basically a smaller, shorter wheelbase 240..

The engine question is between A t5 or a b23ft 16v head (I appreciate the b block twink and longevity of the duratec).

Click to expand...

Oh you should see this nice B23 rally motor I built for a guy.16v .B23 bottom, with JVAB Sooooper Bitchin 160mm rods and light short CP pistons, 11.6 comp, billet steel 16v cams I made in conjunction with Knox Motorsport in VA, a homemade "Nathan in WA" manifold and nice 48mm ITBs, JVAB steel flywheel... Nice and pretty simple and essentially unbreakable..2360cc.

Duratec would be sweet in a nice car like oh say an Xratty..
Which ironically enough if you look at that start list there were 3 there--all three full of JVAB parts, suspension etc

I would want a 5 speed trans and the t5 seems available and cheap

Click to expand...

Clearly...and if going turbo the ideal gear set is the 2.95 first gearset..

If I put a t5 engine and t5 transmission in a focus, I would be cutting into the firewall. I am sure to get 50/50 weight, I would need to do the same to the 242.

Click to expand...

A lotta work for what you get effectively already in a 240..and no you don't have to move the engine..You do need to mount it better---it is nice when the engine sits still.

"What make a rally car a rally car isn't the engine, its the suspension--longer and softer than a roadrace car---the gears in the box and especially the final drive.."

And that is where the focus would be easier, as parts are available.

Click to expand...

Sorry but there is some parts for Focus but mostly its girly-men wimpy sh1t for conesquishers: useless short short junk suspension with little bitty 15mm upper bearings, nothing done for the trashy 1/8" flat stamped steel junk in the back, and extremely costly gears, final drive and diffs, all those 2-4-6 times more than what similar parts cost for a RWD 240 or Xratty.
I've made the suspension for the only active Fucci left..one out here, a couple in Ontario and a couple in New England..

And I suspect testing would indicate a focus from 05-07 would be a good % more stiff

Click to expand...

As a empty street car shell probably..Ford realised one way to make a cheezoid grocery-getter feel nicer was to increase body shell stiffness.. But we're not comparing street car to street car--both are fine--or include Xratties, all are fine with an integrated cage attached in 20-22 places and some rudimentary stitchy welding..
So sheel stiffness is moot--or cancels out in the equation..Same as cage cost, or suspension and even some engine work is same cost so they cancel.
It leaves gearbox, final drive and a good LSD as the main places where there is a cost differential...and the difference is HUGE

Like said, I will never be a pro. Although I sure loved sliding my fwd Saab na

Click to expand...

First. There are no "Pros" in US rally and never have been..Some guys with a Subaru rally Team USA support may make a little pocketchange and get free cars but that doesn't make anybody "Pro".
And to call them that diminishes the guys in motorsport who worker harder and actually are making a living from their racing.

We are all a buncha crazy loons in this..

Yeah 1984 to 1997 all i ever rallied was my nice old '69 Saab 96...light, powerful, right box, right final drive and a good all steel clutchplate diff.
Good enough to win 2wd class in a national:



1995 SCCA Maine Summer Pro rally...1st in Group2, 8th or 9th OA...

and did the motor and supplied the close ratio gearset, and 5.15 final drive and the LSD for the guy who won the 2wd title that year, Sam Bryan..2.0 16v n.a. 215hp.. worked good.

No I would not think too hard on the Focus, I know them and know the 240...uh uh....much more expensive to do the same thing...

Volvo 240 really is the MkII Escort for North America...it fits our roads better.

Isn't the focus FWD?

h20ham said:

Thanks John V
Plan was/a 05-07 focus 2dr. But I may be swayed to a 242
The engine question is between A t5 or a b23ft 16v head (I appreciate the b block twink and longevity of the duratec). My 68 elan has a very responsive b
I would want a 5 speed trans and the t5 seems available and cheap
If I put a t5 engine and t5 transmission in a focus, I would be cutting into the firewall. I am sure to get 50/50 weight, I would need to do the same to the 242.

"What make a rally car a rally car isn't the engine, its the suspension--longer and softer than a roadrace car---the gears in the box and especially the final drive.."

And that is where the focus would be easier, as parts are available.
And I suspect testing would indicate a focus from 05-07 would be a good % more stiff
Like said, I will never be a pro. Although I sure loved sliding my fwd Saab na

Click to expand...

5ft24 said:

Isn't the focus FWD?

Click to expand...

Yeah. and that's the big problem...Not for how a done rally car will work, a well built FWD is fine..
The COST of a final drive, a good LSD and eventually a close ratio gearset or something closer than the wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide MPG oriented junk that all FWD cars come with is the problem...
You will NEVER find a proper gearbox in a wrecking yard or on Craigslist..but I have 4 Borg-Warner T5 gearboxes, all with gear-sets that are preety damn good and all gotten for under $100 each.. (yeah they need to be gone thru but when I do, then I know I have a box that we cannot hurt with a decent warmed up motor making all the Haitch Peas and toarks that a 2wd car can put down on gravel.--can't say that about FWD boxes..) and then there's stuff like their CVs that assplode frequently on FWD cars as soon as they have any fun amount of haitch Peas.

I think however the Oh Pea was hinting at rotating engine 90*, chopping up firewall and fabbing a tunnel..Which I think is not allowed for some dumb reason..

h20ham said:

Looking for advise as I am not made of money
Have a 84 t sedan, emerald green
Also have a 16v head
But, I also have some t5 bits and blocks

I will put my hands on a t5 trans

Here is where it gets weird.
1. I enjoy light weight, and a rigid frame/body.
2. So my choice it seems is at a 05-07 Ford Focus 2dr.
Of course whatever it will be, will be completely gutted.
Not sure if any of y'all could convince me of a 242. As I am sure the 242 is not as rigid.

And talk me out of the t5. Though I know it is out of the box as much hp per weight as a b23 with a 16v.

But maybe costs long term for 400 hp I am better off with the t5???

Click to expand...

I was thinking you might be Strine or a Pmmie Bastid from the words you use and so I looked at your profile and old posts and see references to Kootenays and Rockies. So Canada eh?

Even more reason to bin the idea of the Focus..Western events are FAST and sometimes also uphill..For that you want some power and final drive...
Plain 8 or 16v Redblock while really wanting a bit of a build are better for the West than smaller motor..The fact that you can easily add a turbo to a Redblock that was born n.a. is a huge plus...
Again, the Duratec is a lovely motor..But to make a reliable one to beat on in a sustained manner, it will want rods and pistons in the bottom end, a steel flywheel and the top end wants springs and cams..

So in the two column comparison chart, again that cancels out..
back to the differences and that is what can you do to get shorter final drive and what will that alone cost?

And can you easily do the job?

Volvo with 1030 aka Dana 30---easy and cheap---new ring and pinion sets from $122 to $190.. Volvo with 4 runner Toyota 8" ring and pinion from $140 to 220 OR! shop carefully and you find them with 4.56 or 4.88 in them already.. easy mod.

Anyway Canada CARS does not let you make a FWD into a RWD as far as I know.


You look at Eric Ewerts build I linked to?

Thanks John V
I have read most, not sorted all the info yet from Eric's build
All your ralling must have been fun
Yes, western Canada. between Nelson and revelstoke bc. Some great highways here. And backcountry routes.

All in all, thanks. I better be sure on entry requirements before I go too far.
I can put my hands on a 79 242gt for cheap. But I also know of a merc Capri. 1978 or so.
Have that 84 744 but 4dr... Thou weight ain't too bad.
It seems the newer 242 1990's or so would be better, but getting one past 1984 or whenever they stopped importing 2dr, is tough.
It sounds like it's better in rwd out west and I think I prefer rwd to begin with

So looks like the plan is the 79 242 and the 84 740 bits. Unless I should find a more light weight escort/Capri

I do have some toyota rear ends, so thanks again.

Keep ya posted.

h20ham said:

Thanks John V
I have read most, not sorted all the info yet from Eric's build
All your ralling must have been fun
Yes, western Canada. between Nelson and revelstoke bc. Some great highways here. And backcountry routes.

All in all, thanks. I better be sure on entry requirements before I go too far.
I can put my hands on a 79 242gt for cheap. But I also know of a merc Capri. 1978 or so.
Have that 84 744 but 4dr... Thou weight ain't too bad.
It seems the newer 242 1990's or so would be better, but getting one past 1984 or whenever they stopped importing 2dr, is tough.
It sounds like it's better in rwd out west and I think I prefer rwd to begin with

So looks like the plan is the 79 242 and the 84 740 bits. Unless I should find a more light weight escort/Capri

I do have some toyota rear ends, so thanks again.

Keep ya posted.

Click to expand...

Hey look, I've owned and operated Euro Ford stiff since Fall of 1973, some in English Fords, some in German Fords, some in Swedish Saabs (German Ford V4 they used)...

I heart all to hell the Escorts and what they still can do---like year ago young Hayden Paddon in Rally Otago in a (restrictive) Historic class (they gotta build them like back in the day) Escort MkII with a little 1600 BDA---won the event OVERALL beating every last modern turbo 4wd car in the NZ rally championship...and one guest "star" from Merikuh named Ben Klock or something with a Hoonmobil awd moster..
Won with a 1600cc.

On carburetors

Ford Escort MkI and MkII is Group 4 spec is phenomenal ---but it is the basic spec comboned with the allowances of the old Group 4 class rules that made that so...

However.........

Capris are fun and can be made to work but are a nightmare for wear items.
Wear items includes
fenders,
doors
roof
hood
grilles
rockers
sills
blinkers
windshields
taillights
Struts


Those items wear out when you hit things or skid it down the road on the roof..

Hard to find all of those thing period.. Sure way to deflate the hard-on to pound a car is rarity and expensive parts for simple little mistakes like hitting stuff.

Th'other things is---any point to searching for a rare car no matter how cool it is when built right.
Most places in the world the roads are NOT made to accommodate these:


More like these in Sweden..shorter truck load up in the wood and transfer to larger and longer truck for further transport.


So we build our roads for those long ass Kenworths hauling trees out longways..That means the turns and radius and size fits those big rigs---and it means there isn't the need for something short and narrow like an Escort (94.5" wheelbase) ---and something like a 240 is actually a bitter fit.

So build it like a big Escort Group4 car---and it'll go as good as a good Group4 Escort goes..