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Old 04-08-2021, 04:32 PM   #1
Mats 960t16
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Default Why won’t it spool ?????

Ok sorry, but long story, I’ll try to keep is as short as possible.

TLDR Main things down below in bold fond.

Car in question is my 1992 Volvo 960 with original b204FT engine. Engine and head are completely overhauled and “as new”. Did the timing belt this summer, timing is 100% correct.

960 Specs are:
- Original 204ft manifolds
- 3” tb (original one had way to much play on shaft which caused, leakage no real gains in change drive wise/ performance wise had the tb as a leftover from my b234f)
- TD04-16T turbo (good condition) (was before brand new, GT3071R cosworth turbine ar.72)
- Kl racing intercooler for aircon cars
- Apexi AVCR EBC
- Blabla chipped Lh 2.4
- Bti wasted spark
- New oem fuel pump (new lambda, new tps, new coolant sensors, enz enz all new, all bosch)
- Original ultrasonic cleaned injectors
- (Original) 3” MAF (not new but unobtanium)
- 2.75”dp 2.5” catback no cat

Had this car for over 12 years, been in storage several times due to other temporary cars. Neglected the car for too long because it was **** to drive. No low end torque whatsoever, was a dog until 4000 rpm then max boost kicked in with the gt3071r. M90l2 was a **** box with way to short 1st and broken 2nd and 3rd synchros. Owned several cars after storing the 960 that were so much more enjoyable to drive.

Volvo 850 t5 Auto, chipped, big dp, r manifold, fast, 450k kilometres milage, sold it at 470k (too much leakages).

Audi S4 2.7tt (stupid high low down torque, instant spool, drove like a charm, was a ****box that broke down every week ended up selling it, because no more time left to fix the thing every week.

Fiat Croma 2.4 JTD (200 hp diesel) Auto, drove like a charm, just wasn’t “my” car, very much low down torque. (Bought it dirt cheap with the intention to sell it later on with profit, which I did).

Alongside I also (still have) a 740 with an 850 2.3 t5 swap.

740 Specs are:
- M90H2 (still in mint condition don’t, know how, but guess I’m lucky)
- Chip
- 15g
- r manifolds
- 3”tb
- big ebay intercooler (with water spray like the evo’s)
- 3”exhaust no cat

This thing starts spooling at 1000 rpm, has max boost at 2000/2300 rpm ish (1.4 bar) till 5500 rpm than drop off due to 15g. Very dd able car, did this for 3 years, but has no comfort at al… no options and track tuned suspension (I’m driving 100 km a day now so not desirable)

To come back to case, I sold the Croma and want to dd the 960 again, till it’s worn down. So in about 100k or 150k kms (current is 210k km). But it has to be a nice drivable dd car which I can enjoy every day and take the high fuel consumption for granted.

Things I did to the 960 before I started driving it again.

- Ditched the GT3071r for a 16t turbo, to hopefully increase the spool time down low for more usable low end torque. This car is a dd, I don’t want to slam the throttle for it to go forward.
- AW71L with accumulator mod, to ditch the stupid m90 and because my dd is 50% stop and go traffic.
- Changed the rear diff from 3.73 to 3.91 to help with the off the line power. Car has swapped Multilink MK1
- Fiddle with the apexi to keep the wg 100% close at spool up to reach maximum spool up time boost is set at 1.2 bar AFR is o.k. (at wot 11/11.5).

Main issue:

So the thing is, when it’s up to temp 80 deg Celcius oil, it will go o.k. starts spooling at 2500 rpm max boost at 3200 rpm ish. And when the oil is over 90 deg then it reaches max boost at 3800 rpm…
The thing what I can’t understand, is that it won’t spool up early. Just no way that it will spool. The difference between the 740 t5 and this is one cylinder and 0.3 litre volume. (I know not a real comparison..), but the t5 feels like a big v8 torque wise. While the 960 is slower to 50 km/h than my girlfriends 1.5 swift automatic…

But the fact is that it’s a fresh engine with 2.0 litre and 16 valves and I would think it could do better with the relative small 16t turbo.

The 2.0 lancer EVO 8 from a friend of mine spools waaaay faster and has a bigger (I believe td05-16t) turbo.

I understand that the redblock an old engine (by design), but I want to keep the car and dd it. Now I’m seriously thinking about doing another t5 or perhaps a t6 swap. Because im sick of having no low end torque. I can’t get it to drive how I want and that’s annoying me to hell. I’m not aiming for high power, 250 300 crank hp is enough, standard is 200 hp. But I want usable power with early spool. Is this wishfull thinking? I have an AEM wideband, afrs are good but I don’t trust the AVC-r completely..

Big question, does anyone have any input on the cause, or perhaps a solution to my problem.

(Is it even possible to have early spool with a 2.0 litre?(16v)) or should I give up on trying to make it happen and swap in a t5 or t6 and call it a day (don’t care about the cost or labour, done it before I want a car which I enjoy) but I don’t want to ditch the b204ft just yet.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. anyone with a b204ft and the same problems, or no problems at all? Every feedback is appreciated.

Solutions I thought about:

- Try to ditch the avcr and fix the wg close for testing, with minding of the throttle (risky rather don’t want to do this)
- Ditching avcr and put in an mbc?
- Thought about a stand-alone management but for dd, and minor power increase I think its overkill. But if my lh is the problem then I am strongly considering it (losing the unobtainable maf is a pro).
- …..





Last edited by Mats 960t16; 04-08-2021 at 05:39 PM.. Reason: pictures don't work
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:15 PM   #2
gsellstr
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First couple things that come to mind are cam timing, wastegate tension, and boost control method.

The 15g wastegate actuators are crap in terms of return tension. Given you had the same issues with the 3071, assuming here that you had different actuators between the two, that may not be the cause. A CAREFUL drive with the wastegate hose off the actuator should rule out boost control side issues.
Any chance you have a blockage in the exhaust?
Ignition timing can make a big difference in spool as well. Too little timing and it'll boost but not give you much, too much timing, it'll be laggy as hell to spool. I've had a hell of a time finding that magic line on my daily as well.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:34 PM   #3
Mats 960t16
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Thanks for the reply!

On the gt3071r i had the original garret actuator from the t3 made to fit the gt3071r

Now i have the original 16t actuator, made to fit the rwd application. so different wastegates, same effect.

(both with 4 turns or so on the actuator for pre tension)

cam timing is 100% correct checked it multiple times.

exhaust is free, no cat, 2 free flow (absorption, new simons sport dampers, the simons 2.5" p&p multilink system)

The ignition story sounds very plausible to me because i've done nothing to change the system (no chip), however i dont know how to burn chips, or even adjust chips for the ezk and if there is some sort of generic chip for this, or does this need to be custom fit. the wasted spark conversion has been done, and seems to help with the smoothness.

How dit you find that magic line with yours? (assuming it's lh with ezk) otherwise a standalone may be the ultimate solution for me..
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:35 PM   #4
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Cracked turbine housing? Misadjusted wastegate actuator?

What'd you do with the boost control system? Bypassed?
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:45 PM   #5
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How is the fuel system? fresh fuel filter? Good intank pump? Be sure it's the turbo version.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:59 PM   #6
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Maybe the intake hose deflates?
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Old 04-08-2021, 06:14 PM   #7
Mats 960t16
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16t was mint when i bought it second hand, no cracks, spooling beheviour has been the same since I installed ik 5k km ago. wg is mounted with pre tension.
Maybe i can raise the pre tension some more. Wg is controlled by a apexi avc-r. The original tcu has been detached, as in the map sensor reading is detached and the original wg actuator isn't in the car anymore.

(maybe this is giving conflicts.... however there are no error codes in the tcu or lh or ezk, so never thought this could be the/a problem) I will try to maybe attach the map sensor reading and see if this makes a different. And perhaps look for the original control valve (removed it 8 years ago, dunno if i still have it somewhere..) to make the system original.

intank pump is the original one (car is turbo equipped original) underseat pump is 20k km old bosch replacement, fuel filter also 20k km old bosch, however bought a new filter already just because they're cheap, will install this next week.

Intake hose is 2 bends samco silicone 3 inch hoses with alu piece in between, feel pretty stiff, way stiffer than the original piece, but could be, maybe go pro under the hood to check. will do that.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:29 PM   #8
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Wait a minute...

You have a TCU? That doesn't sync up with being LH2.4.
Also, you have a MAP? LH doesn't run a MAP, they run a MAF, which you mentioned a 3" MAF. Or is the MAP only associated with the AVCR?

For now, rule out what you can, go to just a basic MBC. Also I would look into running the Garrett WG actuator. The 15g/16t actuators didn't have enough return tension to keep the gate closed, causing some sluggish response from the turbo. They were something like a 30/150 where the Garrett's are usually closer to a 150/150. Set that up properly, using a pressure pump, set it to just under your target boost, where it will slide onto the WG pin, then use an MBC to dial in to your target boost. I run an 18psi spring in my Forge WG, set it so at 15psi it will slide over the pin, then MBC up to 18-19psi. Using the WG allows it to stay fully closed until you reach the target, instead of slowly starting to open.

As for spark timing, I do have an Ostrich to allow me to tune my setup, then burn a chip with my burner. It's been trial and error to get it right, but it's doing decent now. I'm going MS anyway, for other reasons, but you can make some gains on the spark side with some careful tuning.
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Old 04-10-2021, 09:47 AM   #9
Mats 960t16
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Yes, but on the b204FT the TCU uses the map and the LH 2.4 uses the maf. The tcu on the b204 has an electronic turbo control valve, which i've disconnect

The avcr also has his own map sensor.

I've thought about getting an ostrich, but then I'm also very close to stand alone.

I will buy an mbc for testing, Anyone have a link for a decent (cheap unit?

Today I've changed the fuel filter and reconnected the Map line for the tcu. The apexi is still in place, monday I'm going to work and try if the line made a difference. I'm trying to rule everything out one by one.

I'll report back with results.

Thanks for all the responses!
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Old 04-11-2021, 04:37 AM   #10
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Isn't there a connection between tcu and lh which times ignition under boost?
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Old 04-12-2021, 11:10 AM   #11
Mats 960t16
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Quote:
Isn't there a connection between tcu and lh which times ignition under boost?
afaik the tcu only regulates the boost pressure and is able to allow more fuel to be injected as the exhaust gas temperatures are to high. it can also lower the boost and retard the timing if the temps to high. But I dont know if it also adjusts the timing under boost, it could be possible. I will study the documentations more.

today i drove to work 100 km

Reconnecting the map line didnt seem to make any difference yet. Maybe i should reset all the ecus by pulling the battery minus.

What I didn't mention in the beginning, was that I had troubles with heat soak. the car would run oke with oil temp of 80 deg C but as soon as I got in traffic, the oil temp would rise to 100 deg C and almost doesn't go down even when the traffics gone and the car has sufficient airflow to the radiator. I've came op with several solutions to fix this with no real effect. But saturday I've finished the ducting from the front of the bumper (its an 850 r front bumper so not original) to the front cros member. now the air going in the grill is forced to go trough the radiator, ic, ac, at cooler and steering cooler. This made a huge improvement as the temps were steady 80 deg C. On the way back I've got in light traffic and the oil would go to 90 deg C, but as soon as i started drinving it would drop rather quick to 80 deg C (oil temps in a sandwich plate)

So now I've got a steady 80 deg oil temp which helps alot and the car feels much more alive, but still max boost at 3200 rpm with a 16t which isn't what I'm looking for but its an improvement.

So for the next step I will order an mbc and check if that gives any changes.
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Old 04-14-2021, 12:40 PM   #12
Mats 960t16
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Ok,

today I was driving home on the freeway with 100 km/h (speed limit in NL)

at 94 km/h the lock up engages so the rpm at 100 km/h is about 2400 rpm.

When I slam it, it doesn't do a thing, but at 2800 rpm (which takes along time, then I'm driving 120 km/h) the turbo starts to spool and rather fast.. so I started thinking.

In the beginning I've setted the apexi to have 100% duty cycle from 0 to 2500 rpm then at 3000 it goes to 78 % and then to 50% for the rest of the rpm range. This means that at the start the wastegate stays closed and the more rpm the more open the wastegate goes.

well the duty can only go up to 90% normally, but there is also an start duty for each gear and those I've put on +10% for each gear so the duty cycle would be 90+10 100% closed wastegate (I tought I was smart for doing this and achieve 100% duty cycle).

But the driving earlier made me curious about the specific rpm range. 2800 rpm is between 2500 and 3000 and the apexi is adjustable in steps of 500 rpm all in between it interpolates. So i started to fiddle wit the start boost and I set it at 9% for each gear. wel....

It started spooling instantly at 2400 rpm and 100 km/h...

So the conclusion is that the apaxi's range only goes to 99% duty cycle, otherwise it doesn't regulate the solenoid and the wastegate acts as a normal one (with rather low boost)
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Old 04-15-2021, 11:03 AM   #13
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Awesome news, glad it was a simple enough fix!
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Old 04-15-2021, 05:58 PM   #14
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Enjoy the boost!
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Old 04-16-2021, 03:01 PM   #15
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So it was a boost control issue afterall, nice result!
My B204GT has both LH2.4 + EZK chipped and functioning electronically modded TCU for higher boost. In this setup the engine only starts spooling hard at about 2750rpm. That said the wave of midrange torque is very nice. Shame i can hardly ever access it because the final drive is so tall. And i refuse to shift down to 4th while driving on the highway.
Maybe i have to ditch the TCU setup as well and install an aftermarket boost controller
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