home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-23-2021, 06:46 AM   #51
dalek
Benchracer Tribe
 
dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Orange Alert, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
They are brand new but my welding skills are not the best but it’s not that easiest to weld thin tubing with a stick welder so. But it’s holding together and hopefully not leaking.
They are still better than mine. But, the fact you did your welds using one inspires me to actually sit down and put time on the one I have. If nothing else, I can use it to tack pieces together and then take them to someone who can do better welds than me. I just need to stop being a lazy ass...
__________________
"you can't leave your thingy hanging in public... you can get arrested."
"What's Arkansas supposed to be, Kansas for pirates?" Forg
"I think I can touch the tire. Damn! I can touch the tire! That hurts!" 240Psycho (on the back seat of my 94 Jetta while I was driving to a J/Y)
"Use the barbed adapter like what I use to inflate the air camping mattresses and my dates." FTF Engineering
i am inspired. i will replace my windsheild... with an intercooler.swedishK
Feedback!
dalek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:04 AM   #52
VB242
Beep beep zip tang
 
VB242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Right Coast
Default

Are you cleaning/ sanding your joints before?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240240 View Post
I'm shocked someone actually took me seriously.
VB242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:54 AM   #53
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VB242 View Post
Are you cleaning/ sanding your joints before?
I’m using a steel brush to clean the area that I’m about to weld and I take the welding slag of to.
marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 10:20 AM   #54
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
I’m using a steel brush to clean the area that I’m about to weld and I take the welding slag of to.
You might want to add wiping them with acetone after brushing. But give em a pressure test and they should be fine.

On the note of trying TIG with your stick welder. Its worth it. A torch runs like $100USD, then rent a bottle of 100%argon. Scratch start doesnt require a ton of fancy expensive equipment, and the control and weld quality can pay for themselves in the long run. Cracked manifolds are no fun, and even less fun if you're on a budget.

Its all coming along though! Keep it up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 10:26 AM   #55
mikep
The MP
 
mikep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 38° 27' N 75° 29' W
Default

I can't see the photos at work, but I will comment on the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
They are brand new but my welding skills are not the best but it’s not that easiest to weld thin tubing with a stick welder so. But it’s holding together and hopefully not leaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
I’m using a steel brush to clean the area that I’m about to weld and I take the welding slag of to.
My father stick welded everything. He learned on the job at a chicken plant, and his trick was to grind a bevel on any joints, then sand back farther. Sometime he did an ok job for someone who never had the best equipment or training. I use MIG for almost anything, can barely stick weld. But I am very good at torch welding and OK at stick, because I started out torch welding/brazing.
Keep practicing and clean/bevel your pipes. I would rather have something ugly that runs than have a trailer queen I can't drive.
__________________
mikep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 10:30 AM   #56
mikep
The MP
 
mikep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 38° 27' N 75° 29' W
Default

One question on the design. I know very little about compound turbo design, except for tractor pull monsters. They would use the large turbo first in line, then small. They said the small would draw through the large and get some heat going, then the large turbo would spool, and the compressed air from the large would then be re-compressed by the small. (this is all cold side, I can't remember if they went small to large on the hot side) They also used alcohol and propane and other ways to get them to spool.
so I was wondering If this is a different design.
mikep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 03:44 PM   #57
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
One question on the design. I know very little about compound turbo design, except for tractor pull monsters. They would use the large turbo first in line, then small. They said the small would draw through the large and get some heat going, then the large turbo would spool, and the compressed air from the large would then be re-compressed by the small. (this is all cold side, I can't remember if they went small to large on the hot side) They also used alcohol and propane and other ways to get them to spool.
so I was wondering If this is a different design.

I have only seen that the big turbo feed the small turbo and the small turbo first in the exhaust flow. I think they do the big turbo first to get lower back pressure and to get the most heat energy in to the big turbo. All the oem setups I have seen use the small turbo first in line to get it to spool faster and drive ability.
marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2021, 02:21 PM   #58
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Update!

Needed to make a oil return in to the oil pan because the big turbo sits to low to make it to the stock oil return.

Little to no leaks in the exhaust manifold now after some pressure testing with soapy water.

It's tight on the cold side maybe some slight massaging with a hammer is needed

The wastegate to the big turbo is placed behind the cylinder head, Really the only place that was big enough for it (38 mm hurricane watergate)





marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2021, 01:32 PM   #59
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

A question what is the smallest oem turbo with twin scroll.


It's needs to be twin scroll because i what to do a built in quick spool valve so it spool even faster same with the big turbo. Borg Warner have done something like this in a prototype.

Something like this. Not my picture.

marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2021, 01:41 PM   #60
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Hi Marcus,
I dont have an answer for that. I've never run twin scroll but id like to say what your doing there certainly seems to be coming along well. Its certainly pleasing to my eyes. You have it fitting rather nicely in there. Keep at it.


Regards
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 07-01-2021 at 02:17 PM..
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2021, 01:50 PM   #61
linuxman51
BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN!
 
linuxman51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: mont, AL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
A question what is the smallest oem turbo with twin scroll.


It's needs to be twin scroll because i what to do a built in quick spool valve so it spool even faster same with the big turbo. Borg Warner have done something like this in a prototype.

Something like this. Not my picture.

you would probably want to look at the diesel world for small twin scroll stuff. hx35 is fairly small (not dimensionally though!). you can probably get a twin scroll housing for the big turbo you already have, and work from there.
__________________
"They bum rushed them in their own crib, they drank all their beer, they partied with their ladies and they left with the trophy"

Now with in-house Dyno tuning!

Megasquirt Tuning!
linuxman51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2021, 10:19 AM   #62
dalek
Benchracer Tribe
 
dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Orange Alert, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
Update!

Needed to make a oil return in to the oil pan because the big turbo sits to low to make it to the stock oil return.
Just to make sure, the tube going to oil pan is steel, going in a bit of an angle, and is still above the oil line, right? From the camera angle it is hard for me to see.
dalek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2021, 04:49 PM   #63
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
Just to make sure, the tube going to oil pan is steel, going in a bit of an angle, and is still above the oil line, right? From the camera angle it is hard for me to see.
I think it's just over the full line or so I hope.
marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2021, 04:58 PM   #64
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

I have look at maybe using a vnt turbo for a diesel for the small turbo. Something lika a gt15 or gt17 turbo.


Some inspiration from bmw with there 3 and 4 turbo 6 cylinder engine.



marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2021, 05:09 PM   #65
James M
Bored member
 
James M's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chico, CA
Default

Plenty of OEM turbos these days are twin scroll. First one that comes to find is the BMW N55 single turbos, but that's because I've got one saved for a future project.

From a quick Google looks like Mini (so FWD BMW) is teasing twin scrolls now, and if you've ever held one of those turbos you know just how Mini it is

Last edited by James M; 07-04-2021 at 05:18 PM..
James M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2021, 09:53 AM   #66
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Hälsningsfraser Marcus,

Where are you in your work? Done anything else yet?


TIA
Hubert
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2021, 12:20 PM   #67
dalek
Benchracer Tribe
 
dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Orange Alert, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James M View Post
Plenty of OEM turbos these days are twin scroll. First one that comes to find is the BMW N55 single turbos, but that's because I've got one saved for a future project.
What are you going to do about its exhaust manifold? Is it part of the turbine or you can separate them?
dalek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2021, 04:19 PM   #68
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Hälsningsfraser Marcus,

Where are you in your work? Done anything else yet?


TIA
Hubert
I bit on the wiring harness but not much had a lot at work so not a lot of spare time right now but it's getting there.

Have also looked around at smaller turbos then the 16t so i can get almost instant boost
Like a gt1549v that is a vnt turbo so hope it doesn't melt or a turbo from a mini like James M suggested. I get to test when the head gasket blows with so much boost at so low of a rpm.
marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2021, 02:30 AM   #69
Triebwerk
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Austria
Default

A lot of the newer turbo driven cars have the exhaust housing integrated in the manifold, or there is no exhaust manifold anymore as everything is integrated in the cylinder head.

The turbo from the 1.0 ecoboost ford engines could be a good choice. https://www.continental-aftermarket....att_de_web.pdf
Drove a fiesta with this engine with 100hp... Zero turbolag, zero power above 4500rpm :-)
__________________
regards Mathias
[Austria]
Triebwerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2021, 08:15 AM   #70
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default



The Ko3's I have are not part of the header in the allroad engine. The are not dual scroll though
.

Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 01:55 PM   #71
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Small update!

Everything on the intake side is done now! And only the exhaust left on the hot side.

The engine harness is done to and i only need to hook in up to the car.



marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 02:13 PM   #72
fatcatbestcat
Professional Hack
 
fatcatbestcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Mississauga, ON (Canada)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusj2001 View Post
Small update!

Everything on the intake side is done now! And only the exhaust left on the hot side.

The engine harness is done to and i only need to hook in up to the car.
Too bad Hubert isn't here to see this.

Great progress!

Forgive me if this was already answered, but are you putting this on a stock B230FT? I'm guessing over in Sweden you guys have reasonable quality fuels to combat knock.
__________________
Doing the wrong thing the right way.

-------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by redblockpowered View Post
Will you do $14.99 shipped?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IansPlatinum View Post
please no more prying things with screwdrivers and bashing things with hammers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwazywazy View Post
my balls have more wrinkles than my brain
--------------------------------------------

-1967 144S
-1983 245 Diesel
fatcatbestcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 02:36 PM   #73
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatcatbestcat View Post
Too bad Hubert isn't here to see this.

Great progress!

Forgive me if this was already answered, but are you putting this on a stock B230FT? I'm guessing over in Sweden you guys have reasonable quality fuels to combat knock.
B230ft with forge connecting rods and stock f pistons so a compression ratio of 9.7:1. Running on E85 right now so not worried about knocking, But it's flex fuel.
marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 04:48 PM   #74
Duder
Comes with a free Frogurt
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Marcus - big kudos to you for building this and trying it out.

It looks like you are building what we refer to in the turbo engineering world as a "series sequential" system. By implementing the turbine bypass valve between the two turbine stages, you are allowing the larger low pressure (LP) turbo to be shut off at low loads and low engine speeds, and allowing the smaller high pressure (HP) turbo to operate on its own. Once there's enough exhaust energy to power the larger LP turbo then you open the valve and allow both the turbines and compressors to operate in series, giving you higher boost than would be possible from either turbo individually.

If instead you wish to completely switch between the LP and HP stages at some point in engine operation, then you are talking about a pure sequential system, i.e. the two turbos are operating in timed sequence, one after the other, but never one into the other - never in series.

Can you clarify which type of system you're going for here? Or maybe planning for either possibility?

A few thoughts after looking at your system photos:
  • If you open the wastegate which vents to atmosphere after the HP turbine, then you may be essentially shutting down the LP turbo completely (depends on flow capacity of LP turbine and of the wastegate).
  • If you open both the atmospheric wastegate and the inter-stage wastegate, then you are bypassing both turbine stages.
  • If you want to run this as a series-sequential system (first type described above) then you will want a compressor bypass valve between the HP and LP stages. This can be a passive spring loaded flapper valve, but it's needed because without it, when your turbine bypass valve is open and you want the LP to run on its own, then the LP compressor will by trying to force-feed the HP compressor which won't be actively working, so it will effectively just be a restriction. Adding a compressor bypass valve would let the LP boost pressure dump directly into the intercooler and on to the engine. This valve would need to be about the size of your charge plumbing between the LP compressor and intercooler, not any smaller.
  • Again if you want to run in series, an inter-stage cooler between the two compressors is an absolute must-have in my opinion. Without it you will likely overheat the HP compressor and kill efficiency, because the air coming into it will already be quite hot after being compressed by the LP compressor.


In general terms, the reason the large compressor feeds into the smaller one is a function of how radial compressors work. They just multiply the inlet pressure via pressure ratio to get to an outlet pressure. They really don't care what the value of the inlet pressure is... whether it's atmospheric or already boosted (by the LP stage) doesn't matter much because the air flow correction accounts for that. If you look at a compressor map, the flow axis is always corrected flow, not actual physical flow. At atmospheric conditions these are essentially the same. But when you pre-compress the inlet air with another turbo, the corrected flow rate actually goes down, meaning a smaller compressor is a better match for this already-boosted airflow. If you swapped the two turbos around then they would both be very poorly matched for the conditions they would see, and performance would be terrible. The smaller turbo would also then act as an inlet restriction which would severely limit your total power and negate the reason for using a larger LP turbo in the first place.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2021, 05:31 PM   #75
marcusj2001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
Marcus - big kudos to you for building this and trying it out.

It looks like you are building what we refer to in the turbo engineering world as a "series sequential" system. By implementing the turbine bypass valve between the two turbine stages, you are allowing the larger low pressure (LP) turbo to be shut off at low loads and low engine speeds, and allowing the smaller high pressure (HP) turbo to operate on its own. Once there's enough exhaust energy to power the larger LP turbo then you open the valve and allow both the turbines and compressors to operate in series, giving you higher boost than would be possible from either turbo individually.

If instead you wish to completely switch between the LP and HP stages at some point in engine operation, then you are talking about a pure sequential system, i.e. the two turbos are operating in timed sequence, one after the other, but never one into the other - never in series.

Can you clarify which type of system you're going for here? Or maybe planning for either possibility?

A few thoughts after looking at your system photos:
  • If you open the wastegate which vents to atmosphere after the HP turbine, then you may be essentially shutting down the LP turbo completely (depends on flow capacity of LP turbine and of the wastegate).
  • If you open both the atmospheric wastegate and the inter-stage wastegate, then you are bypassing both turbine stages.
  • If you want to run this as a series-sequential system (first type described above) then you will want a compressor bypass valve between the HP and LP stages. This can be a passive spring loaded flapper valve, but it's needed because without it, when your turbine bypass valve is open and you want the LP to run on its own, then the LP compressor will by trying to force-feed the HP compressor which won't be actively working, so it will effectively just be a restriction. Adding a compressor bypass valve would let the LP boost pressure dump directly into the intercooler and on to the engine. This valve would need to be about the size of your charge plumbing between the LP compressor and intercooler, not any smaller.
  • Again if you want to run in series, an inter-stage cooler between the two compressors is an absolute must-have in my opinion. Without it you will likely overheat the HP compressor and kill efficiency, because the air coming into it will already be quite hot after being compressed by the LP compressor.
In general terms, the reason the large compressor feeds into the smaller one is a function of how radial compressors work. They just multiply the inlet pressure via pressure ratio to get to an outlet pressure. They really don't care what the value of the inlet pressure is... whether it's atmospheric or already boosted (by the LP stage) doesn't matter much because the air flow correction accounts for that. If you look at a compressor map, the flow axis is always corrected flow, not actual physical flow. At atmospheric conditions these are essentially the same. But when you pre-compress the inlet air with another turbo, the corrected flow rate actually goes down, meaning a smaller compressor is a better match for this already-boosted airflow. If you swapped the two turbos around then they would both be very poorly matched for the conditions they would see, and performance would be terrible. The smaller turbo would also then act as an inlet restriction which would severely limit your total power and negate the reason for using a larger LP turbo in the first place.

Right now it setup like a compound system just to test it out. After that I will build a bypass valve so i can get a bit of compunding at low rpm then when the LP turbo produce the same boost as the compunded boost pressure the bypass valve will be fully open.

So when the HP turbo produces 14.5 psi the LP turbo at 0 psi so the valve will be fully
closed. So when the boost of the LP turbo start to increase the valve will start to open depending of how i program it. So the longer i keep the valve closed the more compund boost i willl get.

all of the exhaust gases from the HP turbo through the LP turbo even the wastegate. So I can switch of the HP turbo with the wastegate in between the turbos, But the LP turbo will always produce boost, I don't think the wategate for the LP turbo is big enough to bypass all of the exhaust so there will always a little of boost. But yes I can essentially shut the turbos off.

There will be a inter-stage intercooler later on.

Insted if a bypass valve that is activated by a spring i'm thinking of using a throttle body controled by the megasuirt so i can control at which boost level it's should open at. (More boost on E85 then gas).
marcusj2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.