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Old 08-10-2010, 09:36 AM   #1
fredsanford740t
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Default Eaton M90 + B230ft

Anyone here ever attempted to incorporate the Eaton M90 supercharger with the stock B230FT Setup... I plan on "downgrading" to an original Garrett turbo from the older B230FT and Maybe adding an M90 to the Mix...

Anyone had any luck Twincharging a B230 using this charger?



Charger is only 11k old! Engine is bad though, rod through the oil pan! My guess is that it's gonna be a nightmare to mount the charger, tensioner and Idler.... Also thinking of running two intercoolers, one after the turbo compressor and one after the supercharger outlet... Delete the GM throttle body ( or maybe keep it because its bigger than the stock Volvo TB). The M90 doesn't appear to have an electromagnetic clutch for engagement/ disengagement of the pulley.

Doing some research on Twincharging... I may just need to use a Previa charger.

What do you all think?
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:47 AM   #2
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Try it, and get ready to kill your M47 very quickly. Also keep the turbo you have, as the bigger charger will help it out.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:02 AM   #3
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M90 will move a good deal of air...
I don't think anyone who frequents this board has really finished a twincharge install.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:40 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VQ View Post
Try it, and get ready to kill your M47 very quickly..
Agreed!!! I'm on my second one now!

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Also keep the turbo you have, as the bigger charger will help it out.
Still have to do some flow calculating but, I will consider it. The Mitsu turbo that I have now is on it's last leg.


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M90 will move a good deal of air...
I don't think anyone who frequents this board has really finished a twincharge install.
I can understand why... Where can I find a few of the "attempt" threads (other than searching the forum)? Know of any worth reading, off the top of your head?
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Old 08-10-2010, 06:59 PM   #5
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if you are twincharging then there is little point to using a smaller turbo. the purpose of the supercharger is to add bottom end tq and power and help spool the larger turbo.

the advent of the ballbearing turbo or any other means of spooling a large turbo faster has all but negated the use of twincharging. someone on this board was installing an eaton sc i believe.

Not telling you "dont do it!" Cuz its a cool idea, a little on the complex side given the 2 intercoolers you want to run (why not just run ONE highly efficient air/water IC? with a 5-7 gallon reservoir in the trunk and a mustang cobra/ford lightning pump and heat exchanger?)

I planned on doing this to my corrado as it was already supercharged, but these days i've been thinking of ways to accomplish the same goals more simply.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:46 PM   #6
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I have the smaller m62, not sure what to do with it yet.
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:49 PM   #7
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just use a smaller pulley. increase the boost a lil bit. the 62 is pretty small. although at least its not a 45. its better than nothing. but the fab work is alot more than installing a turbo, some people just like to be different though.
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Old 08-11-2010, 11:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
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but the fab work is alot more than installing a turbo, some people just like to be different though.
Which reminds me of the people who claims it is easier to SC an engine than turbo it, because you need to fab less stuff...

To each their own.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nextproject View Post
if you are twincharging then there is little point to using a smaller turbo. the purpose of the supercharger is to add bottom end tq and power and help spool the larger turbo.

the advent of the ballbearing turbo or any other means of spooling a large turbo faster has all but negated the use of twincharging. someone on this board was installing an eaton sc i believe.

Not telling you "dont do it!" Cuz its a cool idea, a little on the complex side given the 2 intercoolers you want to run (why not just run ONE highly efficient air/water IC? with a 5-7 gallon reservoir in the trunk and a mustang cobra/ford lightning pump and heat exchanger?)

I planned on doing this to my corrado as it was already supercharged, but these days i've been thinking of ways to accomplish the same goals more simply.
The turbo I would be "downgrading" to is a .42/.48 trim. So, it's "larger" than the mitsu turbo. Although the exhaust side is bigger than the intake side, I think this turbo would work well with the M90.







I appreciate the suggestion on air to water intercooling and using a single cooler. That was my initial thought. Just thought it may help to have a remote intercooler cooled through the top of the hood like Subaru's. I would use two 5" ATV electric fans that constantly run at WOT. What do you guys think?

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Old 08-12-2010, 10:36 AM   #10
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if it were me ... i'd run the compound with a bigger turbo -> intercooler -> m62orm90 pushing ~.5bar

another ic between the s/c and engine would help with detonation resistance, but the ic post-turbo/pre-s/c will be the only of the two that will benefit from the increase in o2 density you get by cooling the air charge (since the turbo "freewheels"). that said, both would be worthwhile imo.

but seriously, .5 bar from the blower fed by 1 bar from the turbo and you are most likely in the efficiency range of both with damned-near 30 lbs of boost. keep in mind the blower power is calculated based on pressure change, not absolute pressure .... mmmm compound charged b230 - with a 16valve head the thing would pound
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Old 08-12-2010, 11:12 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by kildea View Post
if it were me ... i'd run the compound with a bigger turbo -> intercooler -> m62orm90 pushing ~.5bar

another ic between the s/c and engine would help with detonation resistance, but the ic post-turbo/pre-s/c will be the only of the two that will benefit from the increase in o2 density you get by cooling the air charge (since the turbo "freewheels"). that said, both would be worthwhile imo.

but seriously, .5 bar from the blower fed by 1 bar from the turbo and you are most likely in the efficiency range of both with damned-near 30 lbs of boost. keep in mind the blower power is calculated based on pressure change, not absolute pressure .... mmmm compound charged b230 - with a 16valve head the thing would pound

Sounds good! I will enjoy 30psi although 22psi didn't last long in my old DSM (what a jackstand queen it was). I may get a bigger turbo depending on my calculations... Eventually, I will upgrade to a 16V head as it is much more volumetrically efficient. However, this will be my daily driver for a good little while so I don't want it to be unreliable. Whenever I get ready to enter drift events I will look into going larger... For now street, auto x and parking lot drifting will be fun with this setup, no?

I do remember that S/C power is based on pressure charge and that exit temps can exceed 250*F. This is why I would like to incorporate a secondary intercooler as well. I do agree that a larger FM will yield much denser air but I just don't want to hack up my bumper yet.
I already have a secondary cooler and fans collecting dust that I need to do something with.

Food for thought. Came across Thrasher's site while gooling 'Eaton M90 Intercooler':

http://www.thrashercharged.com/L67_htm/new_cooler.shtm



The cooling and power gains achieved from this setup are impressive and the intercooler is tiny! Water cooling helps a ton though. I'm also thinking of introducing water/methanol as well.

M90 inlet and charge air exit measurements:




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Old 08-23-2010, 09:16 PM   #12
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Bump and does anyone know what the air flow sensing limit is on the stock 012 MAF. Meaning what is its range in Hz or lbs. per minute of air?
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Old 08-24-2010, 03:18 AM   #13
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I looked into twincharging a while ago for my miata and what seemed to be the best way to route it was super -> Turbo -> big A/A IC -> Engine. This seemed to be the simplest method. I assumed that the blower would have to be unthrottled for this method to work which isnt really that difficult to set up. My miata is already set up with an unthrottled blower where any excess pressure is vented with a 2 port bov. The only problem i saw with twincharging other than the complexity was the charge heat. It seems twincharging makes for some nasty temps so make sure you have a large intercooler.
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Old 08-24-2010, 11:28 AM   #14
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I looked into twincharging a while ago for my miata and what seemed to be the best way to route it was super -> Turbo -> big A/A IC -> Engine.
this defeats the purpose of twincharging, assuming the s/c is positive displacement.
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:11 PM   #15
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I have a roots blower and assumed a roots would be used because of the m90.
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:27 PM   #16
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I have a roots blower and assumed a roots would be used because of the m90.
i assumed a roots, in this case you don't get the benefit of compound charging, i.e. the positive displacement pump has to go in between the variable displacement (freewheeling) pump and the engine (the other positive displacement pump).
so: turbo -> roots -> engine

not

roots -> turbo -> engine

you are not compounding the air charge that second way
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:44 PM   #17
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I dunno. I based my research of of a 1.4L VW engine set up like this:



The lancia delta s4 seems to be set up the way you described so there is probably different ways of going about this. Heres the lancia's system:

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Old 08-24-2010, 12:48 PM   #18
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yeah, that's not compounded, notice the bypass valve.
that's just a blower that's bypassed when the turbo spools.

compounding actually multiplies the charge, so turbo blowing into the inlet of the positive displacement supercharger multiplies the ratio yielded by the turbo with that of the blower - so running a bar of boost on the turbo into .5 bar from the blower yields ~2 bar at the intake.




ah! i see, you didn't mean compound, rather you were just referring to a method of twin charging with a bypass valve (all along) my mistake, i assumed you meant the latter type (i.e. compound)
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:29 AM   #19
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Little-by-little.... Getting everything together.

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Old 08-25-2010, 02:46 PM   #20
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Good to see your still working on it. Usually a twincharging project only exists in bench racing.
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:15 PM   #21
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Watching this with a great deal of interest- I hope you see it through to being a great success.
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:57 PM   #22
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Watching this with a great deal of interest- I hope you see it through to being a great success.
Thanks! That makes two of us hoping to see this through to the end... Hopefully a successful end!

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Good to see your still working on it. Usually a twincharging project only exists in bench racing.
Lol...I've been benching this im my mind for years!!! I now have some real parts on a real bench in real life

Any Ideas on how to mount the M90? I'm thinking of modding a stock b230 intake and using just the runners, make a custom flange for the M90 and weld the runners to it... There are plenty of vacuum nipples and PVC inlets on this GM version of the M90 so running all of the mandatory plumbing shouldn't be a problem. Not to mention the 3" throttle body/MAF mounted to the inlet.

Also already has boost control via vacuum solenoid and actuator.

"Supercharger boost is controlled by the PCM via a boost solenoid, and a vacuum-operated bypass valve, which regulates the amount of boost pressure according to intake vacuum (engine load). At idle and low engine loads, the bypass valve is open allowing air to bypass the supercharger. When the driver steps on it and intake vacuum drops, the bypass valve closes allowing the supercharger to deliver boost pressure. The PCM usually commands the boost solenoid at 100% duty cycle (on all the time), unless the vehicle is shifted into reverse, in which case it kills the boost pressure."

Time for Stand-alone engine management.

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Old 08-25-2010, 04:05 PM   #23
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Nice work.

It turns out we have the same m90. I have the one with the short snout. I am going to do either of 2 things, use the serp pulley and machine a billett pulley for the front of the b230 crank,

or take an alternator pulley and machine it to fit the m90, and play with v-belts

I imagine the v-belt solution might slippy slip? Also need to take account the gear ratio of the blower in order to produce desired boost, so perhaps a dedicated pulley for SC with ratio in mind would be best route.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:07 PM   #24
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Oh and..

see wingnutty's project, we made the intake out of a commando bumper and cut up a 16v thinger.

you might want to consider using b21f runners, and have that thing sticking out of the hood for woots
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:21 PM   #25
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This might should have been mentioned earlier in the thread. But the M90 from the 89-97 ford thunderbird super coupes are much easier to plumb and mount because they weren't directly connected to the intake like that and they had an intercooler. There was a guy that twin super-charged a 351W in a fox thunderbird using two of these chargers. He ported the snot out of the cases but he was putting the rear bumper on the ground with ease by the time the project was done. http://members.jasnetworks.net/mjsit.../SCTC/sctc.htm
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