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Old 01-10-2003, 06:26 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLane
[quote:1903d673b1="Obeharskad122s"]Oh yeah...John Lane and/or Dave Clark. I'm going to be in the Seattle area the 17th through the 21st, I'd love to see this beast of a car. And perhaps beg a ride in it?

Your timing is very bad. I will be in Mexico as of the 17th of January.
Perhaps another time. I'll be thinking of driving really fast as I paraglide in Mexico and drink lots of Tequila whilst working on my suntan. The suntan makes it so that when other competitors have to see my butt it does not blind them with the reflection from their driving lights at night. JL.[/quote:1903d673b1]

So leave me the keys and I'll try my best to scare him in your absence! Please, please... I'll even put the Powerstroke I/C in while you're gone. I know, you want to tinker with it yourself. Hey, it was worth a shot...

And what John is referring to above is that when a competitor crashes their car or breaks down in the middle of a stage it is a rally tradition to moon the rest of the cars as they go by. :booty: Ask any competitor who has rallied here in the NW, they have all been blinded by John's ass! :squint:

-Dave Clark
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Old 01-10-2003, 06:35 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JohnLane
Dave.......Just got done poking around under the hood with the tape measure......I will get to find a new home for the horns, but otherwise it will hang down exactly the same as the Saab I/C as has been in there from day one; that I have by some manner of miracle not managed to bash up. We DO know how I like touring the ditches. 8)
Ya-All ready for THIS?? LOL.
JL.

Wow, that's amazing. It looks so much bigger in Kenny's pics. That's cool! (Literally.) The SAAB I/C does a good job itself. You can go and run the car hard and stop and feel the temperature difference between the I/C inlet and outlet pipes. The inlet pipe is warm and the outlet pipe is not just cooler, but actually cold. The Powerstroke I/C should be more efficient yet. Plus the plastic side tanks of the SAAB I/C aren't going to stand up to increased levels of boost.

-Dave Clark
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Old 01-10-2003, 06:57 PM   #53
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Ya, I think the powerstroke is 18" from top to bottom, which is fairly similar to a volvo or saab.
Big thing is it's like 38" long overall. :shock:
I'm thinking if headers could be made, doing a twin turbo could be slightly more economical since one could use basically junkyard turbos. 2 stock grand nationals would be good for 600-650hp. seems like they'd almost have to be under the car though. maybe false economy?

I'm loving my 4 banger project, seems to be going well, and I want to see what it'll do, but if I happen to find a premier motor, I might just have to steal it away into a dusty corner for a couple years getting a little peice here and there while i figure out an ems on the "disposable" 4 banger. hehehehe. I can basically mod the car with moving to a 6 in mind.
Any thoughts? Besides the fact that it sounds a little fickle? ;)
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Old 01-10-2003, 07:25 PM   #54
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I think twin turbos would be adding unneccessary complexity and expense. Fer cryin' out loud, we got 500 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels with a single turbo without hardly trying! And with only 11lbs of boost. You will spend more time and money trying to set up even two junkyard turbos with all the related plumbing and wastgates and intake and exhaust connections, etc, etc. Trying to fit it all in will be a pain, too. The single turbo fits so nicely behind the engine, it's like they left that space there for a reason. A TO4 turbo is not that expensive, really. Besides, that's not the expensive part, anyway. Don't forget you will need a new bigger, stronger clutch, tranny, driveshaft, and rear end or all the power in the world will be useless.
In fact i would suggest for someone wanting to do a turbo V-6 of their own to maybe use a smaller turbo. A little better response and still loads of power and torque but not so much you will blow up everything instantly. Renault did do a turbo version of this engine in 2.5 liter form in the Alpine with a smaller turbo. I'm thiking someting like 220hp I'll have to dig up the article.

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Old 01-10-2003, 07:33 PM   #55
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I don't like to buy stuff from them, but Bernard Motors in Seattle has a 3.0L Premier motor on eBay right now.

As far as headers go, are the stock manifolds such that you can do some custom work to bolt up the turbos? You've got plenty of time to think about it, I'm sure. The biggest upshot I see of doing a twin turbo setup is the ability to run slightly smaller and more responsive turbos. That and all the ironmongery under the hood will look sweet (I have a picture of Bill Watson's Mustang in my head).

I call dibs on whatever Kenny sells when he breaks the 4-banger. :beer2:
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Old 01-10-2003, 07:54 PM   #56
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It's a good point about the packaging. I just think John needs someone to play with, and i seem to be already exhibiting similar, excessive tendencies even at such a tender age. 220hp would not be satisfactory. ;) I'm looking for 350 at the wheels with my current project.

T4 isn't too expensive, but between it and the wastegate it's getting significant. The thought with the twins is that since each turbo is only dealing with 3 cylinders worth of exhaust gases, the internal wastegates could be retained, and that really saves on plumbing. The turbine outlets could then just be piped back with 2.5" exhaust as a dual setup.

The wastegates would be set with a pump to the same spring rate, then the vaccuum lines tee'd into a single boost controller so they're synchronized.

So now there are no wastegate dumps into the downpipe, or exits from the header adapter, etc. 2 stock slightly modified 2.5" 940 turbo downpipes would do the job I think.

Not trying to be argumentative, as obviously you guy's setup works great, even the stock exhaust manifolds seem to flow fine whoch is impressive. Just trying to elaborate on my train of thought (and save the embarrassment of looking like I think it'd be a cool idea just 'cause I saw it in a movie once. ;))

That big "hole" sure is a nice spot for the turbo though.
One big single hybrid would probably work good on something street driven, a T3 hot side with an 82 A/R and a BIG turbine wheel like a stage IV-V and a big scary (T70-T72) T04 compressor would spool ok on a 3 liter.

Most of the engine internal specifics would be a direct ripoff of the SPE's setup. ;) Ideal transmission would probably be a T56 a la late LS1 Vette/Viper. The can be had new from Tremec for 2k or so, and if you can find a late model vette freshly wrapped around a tree by some gold chained gangster they can be had for 1200 or so. I work at a machine shop so that's a plus with regard to the bellhousing, etc.

$$I'd ju$t have to re$ign my$elf to it taking a really long time to fini$h. $$
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Old 01-10-2003, 08:01 PM   #57
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Hmmm....maybe I'll just keep my eyes open for a 262C with a bad motor and scout the junkyards for a wrecked Premier. And keep buying those lottery tickets.
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Old 01-10-2003, 08:04 PM   #58
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naw you need the later bottom end. Or use the whole premier motor.
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Old 01-10-2003, 08:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainBondo
naw you need the later bottom end. Or use the whole premier motor.
I am using the B-280 bottom end for the cross-bolted mains and oil cooler. The Premier engine does not have either of these. The liners of the Premier will slide right into the B-280 block for the bump in displacement. The heads on the Premier are vastly better then the B-280 heads on the intake side. They both use a steel crank. I use Eagle racin' con rods modded to fit my application with J&E pistons. My project has been put together over a long period of time, and this has spread out the pain if you will. Build a strong bottom end first, and you won't have to redo that twice as I have learning. One could use the injection of the Volvo flavor for running around N/A with 170 horses before doing forced induction and that expense as you will need to pop for EMS. With the B-280 cams and bigger intake ports of the Premier heads it will run real nice. I sized everything on my T-04 for a boost threshhold of 3000 RPM's. If you wanted it to spool up faster, A/R stuff can be played with.
The external wastegate is well worth it. Want more boost? I turn the knob and it is fast or not.
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Old 01-10-2003, 10:25 PM   #60
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Last time I walked through the section where they put the Eagle Premiers at Pick N Pull, they had 2 of them just sitting there untouched. I laughed and kept walking. Guess I shouldn't laugh anymore!

If I'm that impressed at Thunderhill, I might be pulling one

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Old 01-10-2003, 11:01 PM   #61
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Uh...I dont think you really need the "If" or "might" words. John is gonna school you like a Kung Fu Fighter. Hai Yah!
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Old 01-10-2003, 11:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by tuff240
Last time I walked through the section where they put the Eagle Premiers at Pick N Pull, they had 2 of them just sitting there untouched. I laughed and kept walking. Guess I shouldn't laugh anymore!

If I'm that impressed at Thunderhill, I might be pulling one

Patrick D.
Patrick.......If you end up riding in the Fire Breathing Monster, get ready to be pinned into your seat HARD if I am able to get it to hook up. I'll try to not make ya Heehee. Hopefully Topi will attend. He remembers the "Last time" The Volvo got to play at a track day. :shock:
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Old 01-11-2003, 02:53 AM   #63
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Yeah, and Topi still talks about that ride. :D

Seriously, nobody who has ridden in the Monster doubts the 600hp claim.

The PRV-6 gets a bad rap for some reason. If you take a closer look at it, though, it becomes obvious it is a really bitchin' motor. It's a stout high performance engine design that was put in mostly normal cars in a boring state of tune. You could build a really potent normally aspirated engine out of one of these, too, with the right parts and a bit of work. It's just so easy to bolt a turbo on and cram all the air in with brute force. You don't need fancy cams or a lot of head work to get it to breathe that way. And it doesn't matter so much that the exhaust side isn't as good. That's why the stock exhaust manifolds work fine. It's easy to bolt up to them.
The Premiere heads do have very nice intake ports. If you take the intake manifold off you can look straight down at the backside of the intake valve.

Kenny, different ideas are fun, it's all good. My point is that if your main motivation to run twin turbos is because you think it will be cheaper than buying a TO4 then you probably can't afford to do it in the first place. If you want to do twin turbos because it will be cool and you've got the dough to sort out all the details, then go for it! Just remember to put money away for a programmable FI system because it's essential to make it run properly and not blow up.

-Dave Clark
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Old 01-11-2003, 03:36 AM   #64
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Let me amend my earlier post...I'll start saving up for a 760 wagon! No, really, I've been thinking of ways to build a 180MPH Volvo for years now, I just needed to find the right lunatics.
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:20 AM   #65
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ok guys , time for more tech info .

John , im impressed by your cars performance , but how much does it weigh ? i still cant fathom how the PRV6 can make power ive driven loads and didnt think they were that special , most with cam clatter and head gasket probs or timing chain probs . This eagle premier engine , is it a direct descendant of that B280 , im interested if only i could find that here in the uk , we do have alpines , but ive seen one on the road , full stop , they are that rare! .

Have you corner weighted the car at all , id be interested to see the difference in weight distribution against a 4 cyl since another reason i dont like the v6 model is the engine is stuck further forward , i always favour more weight at the rear since any rally car ive been involved with has been mid engined . My friends V8 Darrian is now around 300hp and 850 kgs , for tarmac use strictly , i had a go in that and couldnt keep my feet pressed on the footrest , cornering and braking were "holy Mofo" .

My friend incidentally was Mr hoseason "hoseasons holidays " and was involved in the canadina holiday market in a big way from the uk so may have heard of him . If you wanna see a piccy of the darrian go to my gallery on my website .

If youve got cossie front stuts , did these fit straight to the BBJ or have you got modified wishbones and the front brakes mounted straight to the caliper brakets etc ? Hmmm , i can source cossie bits quite easy here , something for me to think about . Unfortunately youve got 4 stud wheels with that setup but the rears are 4 stud aswell ?

hope you can answer these questions in your humble manner

Thanks Dave
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Old 01-11-2003, 04:46 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by DBSvolvos
ok guys , time for more tech info .

John , im impressed by your cars performance , but how much does it weigh ? i still cant fathom how the PRV6 can make power ive driven loads and didnt think they were that special , most with cam clatter and head gasket probs or timing chain probs . This eagle premier engine , is it a direct descendant of that B280 , im interested if only i could find that here in the uk , we do have alpines , but ive seen one on the road , full stop , they are that rare! .

Have you corner weighted the car at all , id be interested to see the difference in weight distribution against a 4 cyl since another reason i dont like the v6 model is the engine is stuck further forward ,
(snip)
If youve got cossie front stuts , did these fit straight to the BBJ or have you got modified wishbones and the front brakes mounted straight to the caliper brakets etc ? Hmmm , i can source cossie bits quite easy here , something for me to think about . Unfortunately youve got 4 stud wheels with that setup but the rears are 4 stud aswell ?

hope you can answer these questions in your humble manner

Thanks Dave
OK, Here ya go; and in my usual humble manner. You've got John Here.
The B-280 and the Premier are kissing cousins, with say intake manifolds that appear 90%+ the same. Many other details make clear that they are very close to each other. That stuff is not important. What is important is that both these engines are the 'late' models with the improved oiling for the cams, even firing configuration with the forged steel crank, and vastly better intake flow with bigger valves and more power to match (all compared with the odd-firing version). They all (PRV V-6's) have the rod/stroke ratio of 2 or better (The shorter stroke flavor had an even longer rod). So all good things.
I have never had a cam problem, but use synthetic oil and change my oil. That may just have something to do with that. I don''t have chain issues for likely the same reason. I also keep a watchful eye on things as is reasonably expected of caring for the racecar. I lost a headgasket through certainly no fault of the gasket. I had a leaky radiator and the coolant level got low on a stage with the predictable results. No harm done to anything else though. The sealing surfaces got a kissie in the head surfacer and it got reassembled. Runs like a champ again.
Eagle Premiers can be had here in the states now for a song. Figures huh?
I have not corner weighted, but know that my car all up wieghs 3025lbs with fuel. The V-6 is of aluminum, and weighs very close to the redblock with it's iron. It is further forward in the chassis, but I have no issues with understeer or any manner of handling concerns that I could point a finger at the engine being where it is and say "Damn my engine placement.'' It just works out real well for a place to put a nice big turbo.
Modified lower control arms with Heim joints for a lower ball joint get me out to the Cossie Group-A front suspension with the alloy uprights, rotors on hats, and AP calipers. Good junk. Got to fiddle with outer tie rods to get the bump steer under control, but that seems to not be an issue now (read: it isn't scary now). Made an adapter that needs more fiddling to get from the Volvo strut top to the Gp-A top mount. That will happen someday.
Front wheels are 4 stud, rear Volvo 5 stud. I carry two spare tires on stages. Different offset.
I'm now headed into Seattle to cobble in my other DMS rear shock and fix and exhaust leak. As I have said in the past: Always a work in progress.
JL.
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Old 01-11-2003, 11:17 PM   #67
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As in 'Dave Clark and the Hot Nuts'? The band?
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Old 01-12-2003, 12:10 AM   #68
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Or the Dave Clark Five?
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Old 01-12-2003, 08:33 PM   #69
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Or the Dave Clark Five?
Well, seeing as I was born right about the time that the DC5 were really popular, erm no, I do not have a former life as a drummer in an old British invasion band. :wink:

Mr. DBS, if you've opportunity to flog one of those crazy V-8 Darrians then you've got a pretty good idea, in sort of a different way, of how scary/fun and totally overkill the Fire Breathing Monster is. Don't worry about weight distribution, overtseer is just a tap of the throttle away. :D Oh, there might be better rally car setups out there, but they wouldn't have the over the top lunacy that so suits John Lane. :yikes: :slap: :booty: (I'm sorry, I can't help myself. These things are so much fun!)

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Old 01-13-2003, 12:09 PM   #70
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The DMS rear shocks are now in the car.
The exhaust leak is fixed (what an SOB of a job!!) with a snip, cobble, reshape and reweld. Dave, you may even approve of my fixins.
Now it is time for the Powerstroke intercooler to find it's way under the hood. Dave....Wanna cobble? Or shall I? Onward. JL.
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Old 01-13-2003, 06:50 PM   #71
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I can't see the page. I get this message when I click the link.

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'

[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][C:\WINNT\System32\DBMSSOCN.DLL]General network error. Check your network documentation.

/i_shop.asp, line 122


Anyone?
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Old 01-14-2003, 12:43 AM   #72
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So what happened to the Brembo's and custom a-arms that were used in the car prior to going to the Cosi pieces with the A/P calipers? Were they completely screwed in that suspension wreck footage? If they aren't being put to good use what would be required for you to part with them??? I'm serious about this so e-mail me off list.

Also, I noticed the IPD PIR picture references the name Topi Hynynen. Isn't he the same guy Dave Barton talks about in http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/topi/
And if it is what kind of "spin" were you taking him for? :evil:

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Old 01-14-2003, 01:01 AM   #73
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I've dealt with Topi twice, both times got exactly what I ordered.

So did Dave... just because it wasn't what he *wanted* is not entirely Topi's fault.

FYI, I bought the rods from Dave B that the fuss was about.
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Old 01-14-2003, 01:33 AM   #74
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lol

figures.

wayyy tooo muuuuchhhhh DRAMA!

focus on the important things....

like how much John Lane is going to KILLL you at thunderhill/anywhere.

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Old 01-14-2003, 02:07 AM   #75
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Quote:
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So what happened to the Brembo's and custom a-arms that were used in the car prior to going to the Cosi pieces with the A/P calipers? Were they completely screwed in that suspension wreck footage? If they aren't being put to good use what would be required for you to part with them??? I'm serious about this so e-mail me off list.
The custom a-arms came after the broken spindle that's pictured. The square tube a-arms may possibly make it back onto the Monster someday. It was just easier for John to cobble up some stock a-arms for the Cossie hubs than to modify the custom a-arms. The Brembos are still knocking around somewhere but you can pic those up anywhere. You have to cut the lower caliper ear off the Volvo strut and weld a new one on to get them to bolt up on the front.
I do have a jig for the square tube a-arms in the pictures so more could be made. They are not really any lighter than the stock a-arms but I made them beefy so they are stronger. I could probably make them just as well or better and lighter with round tubing. The main reason I made them was for caliper clearance with the Brembos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wadejg
Also, I noticed the IPD PIR picture references the name Topi Hynynen. Isn't he the same guy Dave Barton talks about in http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/topi/
And if it is what kind of "spin" were you taking him for? :evil:

Regards,
Justin
Yes, same Topi. Topi is a good guy, known him for 15 years. I think maybe it's Dave Barton you want to watch out for...

What kind of spin? Well if you go to Thunderhill I'm sure you'll find out...
How about several 360's at 120mph off the end of the front straight at PIR.... ...not long after that picture was taken.

-Dave Clark
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