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b230R build

High wrist pins mitigate alot of piston slap. I consider detonation a poor enuf tune and the Mahle is there with the results of that. No piston performs well in a poorly tuned motor. No motor will hold up under intense detonation which should really be no issue with 550cc injectors @ 300hp with capable tuners. Poor tuning should never be a consideration in my mind.
 
hk 40 said:
Poor tuning should never be a consideration in my mind.
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In my case, the tune was good, the engine was used for a few years prior and showed no issues on inspection before the race car was stored. The blow-by oil diluted the charge and significantly lowered the octane rating. It only exploderated the pistons that were in bores that showed signs of rust.

Doesn't really matter. The new engine makes more power and torque using stock cast volvo pistons :-P
 
Thats great but even Volvo amends them for more power. Group A is skeletonized :-P One car experience does not deem a cast piston over a forged one. The argument about strength is a no brainer and clearly the world of high performance and durability usually comes at forged offerings. All things equal and done correctly you wont out perform a good gas ported forged piston with a old cast Mahle. I better explain that none of this means he cannot run a stock mahle in a 300 hp redblock. But better is still better and there's no point in skewing the facts. The truth does actually matter.
 
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It’s all good til the guy slaps a set of 1000s on it and drives a cold engine to the tuner just to find out that he’s 2qts over filled with gas and old Rodney starts knocking like 7.3idi.
 
Bloody244 said:
the engine was hurt because the cam plug blew out and i ran the car with .5 liter oil for 40-45km. i think the rods were bent already because a year ago the boost solenoid didnt work. the boost was around 28 psi with stock lh2.2 sounded like firecrackers. it never ran right after that and huge pressure in the crankcase

Fuel pump is rated for 550 hp
injectors a flow tested and flow 550cc
AFR stayed at 12-11.5 during boost
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So what you?re saying is your marginally neglected the engine/didn?t do some solid moding to start with.

You can do 300 no problem on stock bottom end parts.
 
In my mind when it comes to slap and blow by id be more concerned about the preparatory machining that should be truly be done to a worn block prior to the rebuild versus the tune. The piston rings stack design and fit are very important. A good motor machinist will match his prepared rings with specific pistons and bores and labels them as such. The machinist and his equipment matter. Im of the opinion that the preparatory machining operations and the basic assembly of the motor are critical for optimal performance and durability no matter what piston you decide to use. On your side of the pond acquiring good machining and a quality tune will not be an issue. Since you're already in there and blowing rods out why not push the envelop beyond 300 hp with a 16 valve head and internals . I dont know about you motor but a turbo volvo rods can handle 300 hp easily so why make a switch to a billet rod with a stock mahle for 300 hp. Its seems a little crazy because a lighter piston relieves alot of rod stress seen otherwise so it makes more sense to put a lighter piston on the stock rod if all i want is 300 hp. Once I start playing with h beams I'd want more than 300 hp or there's really no need to spend the coin there. This is just my opinion.


Regards
Hubert
 
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stock rods bend pretty easy, even the 'big' 13mm late b230 rods. As cheap as Hbeam rods are, I'd swap them and keep the stock pistons for a budget build (esp something like an in frame job). And by cheap, I mean.. you'll almost spend as much on gaskets and fluids as the rods for something like that. (~$250 or so I believe is the going rate these days for stock replacement hbeam rods) These are not some sort of super amazing product, but they're the same thing as pretty much any eagle rod or any other manufacturer's 'budget hbeam' rod. I would say spend the extra money and get legit arp bolts, but I suppose YMMV and what not.

I would look for more than 300hp if I did a full refresh on a bottom end as well, self control when you've handled the hard part can be difficult lol
 
linuxman51 said:
stock rods bend pretty easy, even the 'big' 13mm late b230 rods. As cheap as Hbeam rods are, I'd swap them and keep the stock pistons for a budget build (esp something like an in frame job). And by cheap, I mean.. you'll almost spend as much on gaskets and fluids as the rods for something like that. (~$250 or so I believe is the going rate these days for stock replacement hbeam rods) These are not some sort of super amazing product, but they're the same thing as pretty much any eagle rod or any other manufacturer's 'budget hbeam' rod. I would say spend the extra money and get legit arp bolts, but I suppose YMMV and what not.

I would look for more than 300hp if I did a full refresh on a bottom end as well, self control when you've handled the hard part can be difficult lol
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As I said I dont know what stock na rods can handle but they should be able to handle 300 hp so I don't really see the point of h beams if thats all his goal is. I know from empirical experience the ft rods have no issue with these power levels and i think that pretty clear if someone looking around for that information. Id rather spend the 250 on the CNC head work for 300 hp. Thats where power is actually made. Also people making these na to boosted swaps have made the determinations that the stock na rod are okay to run with flattops with boost. No time for the swarm but fundamentally you could expect heavier rod stress with these types of setups so I categorically disagree especially when you are talking about durability that that is the best methodology for building a turbo engine. This argument was moved to off topic which changed nothing for me nor did it help the board to remove such technical debates. Locking it doesn't make people accept whats written as the final word before it comes. Thats a real problem here. It should be evident with a heavier piston on a weaker rod with higher static compression what happens. Seems like another no brainer to me.

Regards
Hubert
 
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hk 40 said:
As I said I dont know what stock na rods can handle but they should be able to handle 300 hp so I dont really see the point of h beams if thats all his goal is. I know from empirical experience the ft rods have no issue with these power levels and i think that pretty clear if someone looking around for that information. Id rather spend the 250 on the head work for 300 hp. Thats where power is actually made. Also people making these na to boosted swaps have made the determinations that the stock na rod should be run with flattops with boost. No time for the swarm but fundamentally you could expect heavy rod stress with these types of setups.
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b230f and b230ft bottom ends are exactly the same aside from the pistons. The rods are the same exact part.
 
RvolvoR said:
b230f and b230ft bottom ends are exactly the same aside from the pistons. The rods are the same exact part.
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Sorry I wasnt talking to you but since you butted in I wasn't referring to a 230f or 230FT rods and if thats the case the rods can def handle 300 hp so again this only strengthens the argument that starting with h-beam doesn't really make that much sense since a lighter piston actually take stress of a rod that can already handle 300 hp.... I still stand by the argument that the preparatory machining to make sure everything is straight and true is most important for reliability and durability in a rebuild rebuild not what pistons he uses or his tune.

Regards
Hubert
 
The stock rods suck and are better left on stock cars. Have one thing go wrong and they will bend like silly putty.
 
Im sorry but stock rods on a b21ft dont suck at 300 hp. I dont know what happens with na rods or 230ft's but if it is a ft rod it can def handle 300 hp. I know you here just to disagree for the sake of it.
 
hk 40 said:
Im sorry but stock rods on a b21ft dont suck at 300 hp.
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I have a picture that will prove you wrong... I'd take a picture of it now, but it's a paperweight on my lab bench in the classroom.
 
hk 40 said:
As I said I dont know what stock na rods can handle but they should be able to handle 300 hp so I dont really see the point of h beams if thats all his goal is. I know from empirical experience the ft rods have no issue with these power levels and i think that pretty clear if someone looking around for that information. Id rather spend the 250 on the CNC head work for 300 hp. Thats where power is actually made. Also people making these na to boosted swaps have made the determinations that the stock na rod are okay to run with flattops with boost. No time for the swarm but fundamentally you could expect heavy rod stress with these types of setups so I categorically disagree especially when you are talking about durability that that is the best methodology for building a turbo engine.
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in the b230's, the rods are the same na to turbo, as is the crank. NA pistons have a ~ 3cc dish vs the ~12cc dish (or is it 15.. been a while) for the turbo pistons, as well as a tighter and slightly higher ring pack on later NA pistons. In terms of bottom end stress, perhaps there's more on the higher compression ones, but I imagine cylinder pressures and the resultant forces on the crankshaft to produce said hp are going to be fairly similar, the other ingredients will change (boost, timing, possibly fuel).

Honestly, for 300hp, I would just run a stock engine.. either FT or F, whichever was more readily available in good shape, put a decent cam in it (the ubiquitous IPD turbo cam usually), and make sure the other ancillary components were good (Sufficient fuel injector/pump, good intercooler, better exhaust), and a decent turbo that has good exhaust flowing characteristics. That'd give you something that has good street manners, relatively low stress, and with a degree of owner caution and good maintenance, a good service life. This does assume easy access to good quality fuels (either 93/98 if in eu, e85, that sort of thing). The window for tuning mistakes is smaller on a b230F, one would need to keep that in mind if that's the route one takes. I'm a long time 16v person, so I wouldn't pay to cnc an 8v head myself, and depending on the cost of getting someone stateside to develop that program, I'd buy something from sweden instead (and it'd be a 16v anyway... in for a penny, in for a pound)

Obviously the same things that break stock parts break nice aftermarket parts.. aggressive timing, poor quality fuel (or poor state of tune), inattention to detail, not knowing how to treat the vehicle, etc. you just have a smaller window with the oe cast pistons and oe rods. Fair warning, if you put hbeams in an engine, the next likely hard failure point is going to be the pistons (soft point being the headgasket). To a certain extent everything is a trade-off somewhere, but that's kinda the fun of it all, right?
 
To be fair, the b21 rods didn't break... just bent in two planes... the engine kept running. The b230 rods just snapped.
 
linuxman51 said:
in the b230's, the rods are the same na to turbo, as is the crank. NA pistons have a ~ 3cc dish vs the ~12cc dish (or is it 15.. been a while) for the turbo pistons, as well as a tighter and slightly higher ring pack on later NA pistons. In terms of bottom end stress, perhaps there's more on the higher compression ones, but I imagine cylinder pressures and the resultant forces on the crankshaft to produce said hp are going to be fairly similar, the other ingredients will change (boost, timing, possibly fuel).

Honestly, for 300hp, I would just run a stock engine.. either FT or F, whichever was more readily available in good shape, put a decent cam in it (the ubiquitous IPD turbo cam usually), and make sure the other ancillary components were good (Sufficient fuel injector/pump, good intercooler, better exhaust), and a decent turbo that has good exhaust flowing characteristics. That'd give you something that has good street manners, relatively low stress, and with a degree of owner caution and good maintenance, a good service life. This does assume easy access to good quality fuels (either 93/98 if in eu, e85, that sort of thing). The window for tuning mistakes is smaller on a b230F, one would need to keep that in mind if that's the route one takes. I'm a long time 16v person, so I wouldn't pay to cnc an 8v head myself, and depending on the cost of getting someone stateside to develop that program, I'd buy something from sweden instead (and it'd be a 16v anyway... in for a penny, in for a pound)

Obviously the same things that break stock parts break nice aftermarket parts.. aggressive timing, poor quality fuel (or poor state of tune), inattention to detail, not knowing how to treat the vehicle, etc. you just have a smaller window with the oe cast pistons and oe rods. Fair warning, if you put hbeams in an engine, the next likely hard failure point is going to be the pistons (soft point being the headgasket). To a certain extent everything is a trade-off somewhere, but that's kinda the fun of it all, right?
Click to expand...

With the right machinist CNC heads aren't particularly expensive. My seats were done this way. A good rebuild complete with line boring, decking, etc shoudnt carry over 2 grand with forged race pistons . I even got my blocked o-ringed and custom all copper head gasket. The factory 21 ft rods were reconditioned for 60 dollars I believe.
 
hk 40 said:
Im sorry but stock rods on a b21ft dont suck at 300 hp. I dont know what happens with na rods or 230ft's but if it is a ft rod it can def handle 300 hp. I know you here just to disagree for the sake of it.
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apples to oranges. b21/23 bottom ends have little to nothing in common with b2xx bottom ends from a mechanical point aside from the paint. different journal sizes, different (shorter) rods, heavier pistons with a lower pin height, etc. they share (maybe) front cover gaskets, oil pan bolt pattern, and a few ancillary things like that, but that's about it. Rods were the same NA to turbo however in the b21/23s

within the realm of b230's there's a variety of things, however on the rod front, the journal size and length did not change from beginning to end WRT the b230's we got stateside. you can put later 13mm rods in an early b230 and rock out (but again, for the time and effort, why... unless they were free, but even still labor..), the early 230's had 9mm rods in both turbo and NA and had 180 degree center thrust cranks (and I think a smaller main journal diameter, but again, haven't looked at those numbers in a long time), then the "K" blocks are a mix-360 rear thrust cranks and some had 9mm rods, some allegedly had the bigger 13mm rods, and then you have the late b230's... rear thrust, 13mm rods, and starting around 93, piston oil squirters (on both NA and turbo models).
 
hk 40 said:
With the right machinist CNC heads aren't particularly expensive. My seats were done this way. A good rebuild complete with line boring, decking, etc shoudnt carry over 2 grand with forged race pistons . I even got my blocked o-ringed and custom all copper head gasket. The factory 21 ft rods were reconditioned for 60 dollars I believe.
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perhaps (re the cnc head part), probably depends on the extent of work desired as well. Reasonably accurate on the machinework costs, some of that is going to be regional, last one I did didn't require line boring, but the rest of it without assembly (and I skipped o-ring and copper gasket in favor of a commetic) was somewhere in the 5-600 range for tanking, decking, measuring, polishing the crank, boring, etc. Internals were somewhere around 1k for longer rods and shorter pistons.
 
linuxman51 said:
in the b230's, the rods are the same na to turbo, as is the crank. NA pistons have a ~ 3cc dish vs the ~12cc dish (or is it 15.. been a while) for the turbo pistons, as well as a tighter and slightly higher ring pack on later NA pistons. In terms of bottom end stress, perhaps there's more on the higher compression ones, but I imagine cylinder pressures and the resultant forces on the crankshaft to produce said hp are going to be fairly similar, the other ingredients will change (boost, timing, possibly fuel).

Honestly, for 300hp, I would just run a stock engine.. either FT or F, whichever was more readily available in good shape, put a decent cam in it (the ubiquitous IPD turbo cam usually), and make sure the other ancillary components were good (Sufficient fuel injector/pump, good intercooler, better exhaust), and a decent turbo that has good exhaust flowing characteristics. That'd give you something that has good street manners, relatively low stress, and with a degree of owner caution and good maintenance, a good service life. This does assume easy access to good quality fuels (either 93/98 if in eu, e85, that sort of thing). The window for tuning mistakes is smaller on a b230F, one would need to keep that in mind if that's the route one takes. I'm a long time 16v person, so I wouldn't pay to cnc an 8v head myself, and depending on the cost of getting someone stateside to develop that program, I'd buy something from sweden instead (and it'd be a 16v anyway... in for a penny, in for a pound)

Obviously the same things that break stock parts break nice aftermarket parts.. aggressive timing, poor quality fuel (or poor state of tune), inattention to detail, not knowing how to treat the vehicle, etc. you just have a smaller window with the oe cast pistons and oe rods. Fair warning, if you put hbeams in an engine, the next likely hard failure point is going to be the pistons (soft point being the headgasket). To a certain extent everything is a trade-off somewhere, but that's kinda the fun of it all, right?
Click to expand...

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With the right machinist CNC heads aren't particularly expensive. My seats were done this way. A cnc head guy will have the equipment the finds the virtual centers for the machinist then his operations to the seat could begin. I dont propose a total rebuild on the CC as you may have seen with breakneck cnc head rework. Thats stuffs really great but for 300 hp its def not needed. A good rebuild complete with line boring, decking, etc shoudnt carry over 2 grand with forged race pistons . I even got my blocked o-ringed and custom all copper head gasket. I probably threw a few hundred dollars at the 8 valve head. But he should be able to have similar quality of work for around 1600.00 dollars USD! The pistons seen here would be dated to the newest stuff available. Petal tops offer even more that will translate to more hp and or efficiency of burn etc. One glance at the newest compound setups and the pistons the volvos run will make this point very clearly.

Regards
Hubert
 
ah ok, I'm tracking now. I thought you were talking about a full cnc workup (outside of the scope of 300hp), I was about to ask where you got that done inexpensively. yeah agreed, basic bowl and seat work is fairly straight forward for machines like that.
 
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