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Old 06-15-2021, 09:51 AM   #126
hk 40
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Under 10 in the quarter mile with two warp 9s....

Here's what high schoolers came up with....

All they need is batteries and a simple water cooled h bridge for a dc motor.

What could be cheaper or simpler?

@CD Only people that worry about it grab the ruler....besides you cant take accurate girth measurement with a ruler... build a permanent magnet flux switching machine. Your cad dreams wont compare to it or YASA for torque or power density...





Reinhart doesn't list this dic...


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Old 06-15-2021, 10:36 AM   #127
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https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...-jet-1400.html
low 8's with no suspension tuning, turns 7s now
https://drivetribe.com/p/silent-but-...TIipM1-S9TFzSw
pikes peak record setter
https://youtu.be/dAQ_7fQu8IQ
Circuit of America's lap record setter x2 manned and unmanned, nurburgring lap record for production EV's...

I'll stick to what I have thanks.
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:43 AM   #128
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Oh I knew you would stick to it. You have no way to control this thing . No off the shelf drive solutions for PMFS machines . I suppose the extra 50 grand for 3 seconds fits the turbobrick budget... Cascadia supplied the motor and inverter. Post the price of the two . We know the inverter is over 6 grand tell us how much is the dual stack is an then the forum will know where the budget sits.

TTYL.

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Old 06-15-2021, 10:47 AM   #129
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I have controllers that will control all 3 of those powertrains… I built and tested the motors for all 3 of those. I have the battery that I used to run all 3 of those. And they’re sitting on the floor of my home garage waiting for me to install them in the chassis I’m designing and fabricating with the aid of a few friends that designed the controllers.
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:47 AM   #130
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Can we say all wheel drive 240?
No we can't on a TBudget™.
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Old 06-15-2021, 11:07 AM   #131
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No we can't on a TBudget™.


You got that right because when industry tell you that a reinhart @ $5,475.00 is cost effective
that should tell people the game they are playing with themselves here.....

CD why would you tell Swedebrick that designing his own inverter is nuts if you are there doing that. The controllers you sell are for pmac and reluctance machines. NOT a PMFS it needs another design altogether. Post the cost of cascadia most inexpensive port.

sub 10 sec 1/4 is dam good for a PRIVATEER no FORD MOTOR COMPANY and its team of engineers for the price he will spend as compared. There's no question about it. Kinda of embarrassing if you really think about it as it was done in an old fiero with series wound dc motors. Any idea how less efficient they are? Damn I can venture at a glance if he put two BLDC in the warps place he could pick up the high dollar mustang fairly easily

To maximize the efficiency and effectiveness of the project, Ford Performance has teamed up with several capable and specialized suppliers:

MLe Racecars – Vehicle builder, designer, integrator and tuner
Watson Engineering – Chassis support and development, roll cage builder
AEM EV – Software and motor calibration and controls
Cascadia – Inverter and Motor supplie



and hasnt turbobricks been advised already that with their budget they might build a scooter but a real effort would probably need a collaboration? Slow isnt even a good enuf word to describe it.
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Old 06-15-2021, 11:08 AM   #132
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Oh I knew you would stick to it. You have no way to control this thing . No off the shelf drive solutions for PMFS machines . I suppose the extra 50 grand for 3 seconds fits the turbobrick budget... Cascadia supplied the motor and inverter. Post the price of the two . We know the inverter is over 6 grand tell us how much is the dual stack is an then the forum will know where the budget sits.

TTYL.
Sevcon gen 3-4 controllers can work with those motors, not ideal, but can work. Cascadia controllers would be best. We also have a motor with a built in controller, so you get the benefits of both without the need for a ton of cabling. Run the dc cables and go.

You realize that I am the lone motor assembly technician for Cascadia Motion, right? Like there has been only one person from start to finish that assembles every motor or gearbox for cascadia, and that is me. We are setting up a high volume line, so I’ll be left to just handle the complex prototype and custom powertrains, but that’ll be late fall, winter. Cascadia was formed of AMRacing (motors, gearboxes, and all in one powertrains) and Rhinehart Motion Systems (power electronics, controllers, and power distribution and packaging).

Damn skippy I like the brand of things that I get to create.

Our resellers get to mark them up a bit, but we do direct to consumer sales. A pm150 is probably in the range of 3-5k, and a dual stack is in the neighborhood of 25k.
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Old 06-15-2021, 11:15 AM   #133
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Yes I realize your an assembler not a motor or inverter designer. And please post the price because of course the budget is there...... Seem so me your standing there with a ruler in your hand but like I told you my girlfriend is an assembler they just follow directions.

Edit i didnt see 3,000 - 25,000 motor price list..... thats certainly will fufil the turbo bricks way.

Two warp 9 are 5000.00 and get him under 10 sec. He can do 3 seconds better if he spends 30,000 in just motor and inverter.

Makes sense doesn't it. The budget cannot afford a single item you sell but a cascadia tshirt!


And what do you really assemble but modular pieces you dont even wind them or seem to know much about windings or stator design. Is "assembly" a motor and inverter design metric or it that for the other guys at the round table? Im not trying to slight you but you posted that so what does it really mean as a metric? Im sure you know honestly that assemblers really don't create anything they assemble someone else's creations using blue prints and instruction.

Who here would complain if they could run sub 5s in the eight with their much cheaper ebrick but a paid assembler from Cascadia. What a sell. I understand now. And of course the round table masters have you convinced in sliced bread. And I guarantee you they know who Dieter Gerling is and cannot use his tech without more duck$$$.

Im sure as an assembler you also know that when you run mismatched motors and inverters you introduce nasty little things like commutation ripple creating inefficiency but they don't care about that in the phone world. Its always ideal to run sinus motor with sinus drives and bldc motors with bldc drives.

I also know you have never driven a permanent magnet flux switching machine with any inverter you have because you don't have the motor...A very limited amount of people in this entire world hold that tangible offering. You should build one and see. I've yet to see one outside of academic circles....

Regards
Hubert

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Old 06-15-2021, 12:14 PM   #134
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Im sure the phone world also know that he could create his own very elabotare VFD for much less by taking three cheap monural car audio amplifiers and running them off a dsp sound card or MCU with a 120 degree phase shift between the channels. The winding factor would be increased with semi six phase design with open ended moto coils. Hes not designing a bridge he's only writing codes if he using a dsp based MCU evaluation board. But thats gonna be too difficult for an engineer and assembler as well I guess? Certainly they know a loudspeaker is nothing more than a linear ac motor driven by frequency. For 6 grand which is double the proposed budget he can start shopping for ONE industrial VFD

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Old 06-15-2021, 12:53 PM   #135
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There’s a huge difference between turning a motor on a bench, and having one perform and be controllable in a vehicle (or really an application).
Yes you can make a cheap motor controller to turn a shaft, but getting it tuned to work well on the road is a completely different story.

HK - do you actually have experience installing, and programming, and tuning automotive EV power trains?
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Old 06-15-2021, 01:02 PM   #136
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I'm really surprised that HKK hasn't made his own EV project.
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Old 06-15-2021, 01:05 PM   #137
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Ask a high schooler which has already done it these questions. I suppose you could ask the fiero owner these questions as well. You talking about labs but the drive technology is already proven in real trails. Dr Gerling is teamed with TESLA alot of his tech is already in there. Where is yours?

Have you ever designed built or even wound an electric motor? The heart of any ev. Dont ask silly question because YOU haven't been exposed to something. Do you commission drivetrains that require much more than a car or are cars your only fortay?


Do you suppose in your genius that Cascadia is not testing every one of its devices on a dyno b4 thety settle on a design. These are not even question a real engineer would pose because they'd know..the validity of the IEEE. Its phone world ad hominem. NONE of it makes the price go down or the car go forward.

And do you suppose removing the entire drive train and power system from a 4 wheel drive lexus easier than this? and an inverter?



If you do I'm certainly not the one who needs to be fully versed.. A build was proposed here with a budget that youve been told was dream. People like you tell this man he can do it with lexus or cascadia . So i dont have to prove it you do. I quoted him 10-20K rememba.... If you dont have a realistic budget its quite clear youve never built one or youd know.

So I ask now John where is cullberros, CD's and your ev? That's the metric right? I live in reality and told the forum I could only spare enuf cash for a scooter . And it seems like a go kart is a pretty close approximation. One things for sure I can build freaking h bridge and machine a freaking bellhousing adapter for a warp 9 motor. Don't you see they do that in high school?

Why argue with no facts just show him what he can accomplish even close to 3 grand. Youre not even talking to the members that have shown you their real ev.. They are not commenting here.

When several proposals come and the answer is I cant pay or its too complicated then it becomes floundering. The EV that needs to be built and shown here is the simpler turbobricks way one @ budjet. So far this is nothing more than a brainstorming extension with alot of overcite. Something real is suppose to happen here so where is it at? Stop wasting time with where you work and what you did. Show this man how to put the car together. Of course everyone talking here but has built an ev with lexus parts.....do you supposes it take much more genius to visit an EV forum and regurgitate what's read there? with zero first hand experience in motor or drive design

Hubert

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Old 06-15-2021, 01:17 PM   #138
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Ask a high schooler which has already done it these questions. I suppose you could ask the fiero owner these questions as well. You talking about labs but the drive technology is already proven in real trails. Dr Gerling is teamed with TESLA alot of his tech is already in there. Where is yours?

Have you ever designed built or even wound an electric motor? The heart of any ev. Dont ask silly question because YOU haven't been exposed to something. Do you commission drivetrains that require much more than a car or are cars your only fortay?


Do you suppose in your genius that Cascadia is not testing every one of its devices on a dyno b4 thety settle on a design. These are even question a real engineer would pose. Its phone world ad hominem. NONE of it makes the price go down or the car go foward.

And do you suppose removing the entire drive train and power system from a 4 wheel drive lexus easier than this? and an inverter?



If you do I'm certainly not the one who needs to be fully versed.. A build was proposed here with a budget that youve been told was dream. People like you tell this man he can do it . So i dont have to prove it you do. I quoted him 10-20K rememba....

@ John where is cullberros, your, and CD's ev? That's the metric right? I live in reality and told the forum I could only spare enuf cash for a scooter . And it seems like a go kart is a pretty close approximation. One things for sure I can build freaking h bride and machine a freaking bellhousing adapter for a warp 9 motor. Dont you see they do that in highschool?

Why argue with no facts just show him what he can accomplish even close to 3 grand. Youre not even talking to the members that have shown you their real ev.. They are not commenting here.

Good day
Hubert
I'm going to try to condense everything you said above into what I got out of it. "No, I have never built anything". Is that an accurate conclusion? If not, why not show us your creations instead of attacking the messenger and being so evasive?
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Old 06-15-2021, 01:25 PM   #139
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I'm at work so this will be brief.

HK, cut the crap. Quit recommending that hobbyists make their own high voltage motor controllers using ebay amplifier modules, 30 year old small motor controller chips, and other unsuitable parts. And quit saying that anyone with some electronics knowledge can do it. Designing robust and safe automotive power electronics takes a very high skill level.

The voltages and currents involved in traction motor control are at lethal levels. Plus, it's all too easy to blow up the batteries, and drive components with the slightest mistake. Electrical fires and exploding molten metal are extremely dangerous. You know this, so I view your repeated bad recommendations as a wanton disregard for safety. Please stop.

-Bob
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Old 06-15-2021, 01:37 PM   #140
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You cut the crap because there absolutely nothing unsuitable about the chip. You do know anything about it. And you showed that when you claimed it would only drive a toy. Also how do you think these 6 thousand dollar inverters were made. Do you think an alien supplied them?

You cut the crap because your proposal is well over his budjet as well and in your own words barely drive able.

The safety protocols would not change for any of it . So that means nothing because no matter if it off the shelf or you build the same exact dangers exist.

Since even the suggested safety posted here isnt accurate then the entire thread is dangerous.

Im waiting for what you ask of me from them ..... I havent been convinced that they know much about it. Im sorry but thats the truth. Anyond can goto an ev forum and post what they saw there and say it works just like the fiero that working and definitely less to build. Thats what its supposed to be about. A realistic e-car built within a budget and that has not materialized here yet.

What engineer would build an inverter hook up all the voltage in the world to it in the car it goes in with an try a maiden with zero safety implemented. WHO DOES THAT? And what would be different with anything else? If off the shelf ensures your safety what are all the stickers for? This is nonsense tell me how your going to build his car within budget if everything you buy will be from a shelf. If you dont know HOBBYIST ev world is mostly DIY they you truly dont know anything about it.

The first sensorless controller in hobby was built by a hobbyist that happen to be an engineer. The first BLDC motor was created in the 60's Solid state commutation Ph Trickey TG Wilson Duke University. APD build the most powerdense drives in the world are supported by companies like general dynamics and thiokol and the designer of their drives is a hobbyist who flies drones.

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Old 06-15-2021, 01:51 PM   #141
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All my EVs are under NDA and haven't been publicly released yet
There is one hybrid UAV I developed the powertrain for, that might be out flying about these days. I'll have to check.

There are a few members on this board that have seen them under construction, but no photos were allowed... and I'll them if the mention anything.

They're all up and running just fine, doing real world testing, and hopefully they get the go-ahead for production soon.

Also, stop recommending ancient motor technology that has really poor torque to current ratios. Those Warp9 motors are fine-ish, but there are much better motors out there which will offer more torque for each amp.

And I'll echo what bobxyz is saying, you're gonna get someone electrocuted or have their garage... I mean HF carport, burned to the ground.
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Old 06-15-2021, 01:55 PM   #142
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What t-bricker would build an inverter hook up all the voltage in the world to it in the car it goes in with an try a maiden with zero safety implemented. WHO DOES THAT?.
Have you met anyone from this forum in real life, or seen the cars they modify?

Who hasn't done a massive burnout, blasted some back roads, and then realized they never torqued their lugnuts?
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:04 PM   #143
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Thats nice can he buy it for 3 grand? I mean if its "yours" whos the NDA with? anyway


There's nothing any more dangerous here than it is already. If you want to use that to persuade a mod to only let you speak thats cool but its bs and know it. How is it you've accomplished all these things in EV and dont know how widely series wound dc machines are used in diy EV. OF COURSE ITS SOMETHING BETTER I SHOWN YOU THE BEST. YOU VIEWED IT 11,000 times so far BUT IT ISNT WITHING HIS BUDGET. OR DO YOU NOT GET THAT? What people do on turbobricks with there car has absolutely zero bearing on building his own Inverter. You can get dramatic about it but anyone that's really familiar with it doesn't find it terribly intimidating.

You are welcomed to chase you own tail for 5 more pages of brainstorming. Your gonna get around this somehow . I cannot wait to see it. EV experts than cannot build an h-bridge. Im the fraudulent one your correct. I mean what's to worry about with danger this budget wont buy batteries.

The idea that hacking an electrical system from another car is any less dangerous is bull**** period! This thread is too because there no EE senior in the world afraid of building an inverter for a DIY ev project. Universities do it everyday. Evidently you don't know much about EV and hyperloop challenges either. He doesnt care about 20 points of efficiency remember??? Is it now an issue with the series wound machine that will put him in the 10 without another vehicles entire drive train??? What can he do with suggestions from builds that cant ne shown because of NDAs and if people here have seen it you already broke the agreement. The flux capacitor and DC Plaza are both builds he can view from beginning to end. A build threads worthless without photos...

Just chasing tails....

It's ashame that one thread from another site linked here by someone with zero experience has become grail here in an instant. Even worse the gross overcite on motor control IC's , copper fill, were all incorrect lessons, learned in this thread. Then you top it off with a proposal that comes no where near his budget but only points to the fact that yes its about 10-20k to be my ev "friend".

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Old 06-15-2021, 02:26 PM   #144
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This thread is too because there no EE senior in the world afraid of building an inverter for a DIY ev project. Universities do it everyday. Evidently you don't know much about EV and hyperloop challenges either.
I've advised those EE seniors before, and I've seen the sketchy mechanical work they do. I also see how they don't design around proper cooling or component sizing and selection. This goes for the German uni students I've worked with an advised as well.

I've also been on collegiate teams that have built extremely successful EV race cars. Guess who we worked with to design the controllers..... RMS

The reason for working with RMS: See above about EE students (BS/MS) not being able to design products for the real world.
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:42 PM   #145
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To bad im not just an EE cullberro. You will never advise me because Im a certified machinist manual and CNC and ive spent 5 years Under a ME and toolmaker name James Allen what you can do if you need brownie points is ask Childress racing about him. While with him I learned alot about building small engines, fixtures , tooling, metallurgy etc. Im pretty retentive as well as have everything I've ever learned filed away for reference at any time. Yeah and who said hes a real EE besides him? The other ME in my life is whop brought you lessons about efficiency. Swedebrick needing you has zero to do with me. Everything Ive posted already exist and is working in the real world. You haven't advised anyone at NC STATE DEECS or The university of Bundeswehr in Munic. I have no idea about any other incompetent paths you may have crossed but you didn't cross them in either of these places and that a fact. You dont hold the resume to recieve a hubertus award for post docs. This is one of James torque cradles for small engines. How bout this for sketchy mechanics? If you think your the only person on the board that knows which way to hold an adjustable wrench you're crazy.

And again this is going to build his car within budget how?

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Old 06-15-2021, 02:50 PM   #146
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To bad im not just an EE cullberro. You will never advise me because Im a certified machinist manual and CNC and ive spent 5 years Under a ME and toolmaker name James Allen what you can do if you need brownie points is ask Childress racing about him. While with him I learned alot about building small engines, fixtures , tooling, metallurgy etc. Im pretty retentive as well as have everything I've ever learned filed away for reference at any time. Yeah and who said hes a real EE besides him? The other ME in my life is whop brought you lessons about efficiency. Swedebrick needing you has zero to do with me.
You left out your highest qualification, you're incredibly humble... On a scale of 1-10, where do you think you fall? How do others see you? 1 = ego out of control. 10 = monk. It's simple math. It doesn't even involve derivatives or imaginary numbers.
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:52 PM   #147
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Cool.
You like to throw out your accolades and accomplishments to justify what you say. That's fine.
You should realize that there are people on this board who have more experience than you in a lot (and I mean a lot) of areas. Sure we all play with old Volvos, but we also have day jobs doing things that progress the future of science and technology. Or bio-medical research, or physics, or automotive engineering, or woodworking...

These people are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt when interacting with you, but it's getting hard and tiring.
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:54 PM   #148
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You left out your highest qualification, you're incredibly humble... On a scale of 1-10, where do you think you fall? How do others see you? 1 = ego out of control. 10 = monk. It's simple math. It doesn't even involve derivatives or imaginary numbers.
He brings it up I answer and it becomes my ego because it doesn't apply to me. Im not a sketchy mechanic regardless. Its no matter of ego its a matter of what I know and what I do not know. The bottom line is I'm very mechanically inclined no mater how many labels you throw out there.

Please cullberro what exactly is it when you throw out what youve done as a reason for why people should listen to you. There is zero difference. I dont need the benefit of the doubt this imaginary car will not happen at budget or likely at all. I know this and nothing you post will change it. Not a bolt has been shown or moved here in its name.

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Old 06-15-2021, 02:55 PM   #149
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And again this is going to build his car within budget how?
Do you realize, that it is YOU that is derailing these discussions?
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:01 PM   #150
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How's that? The OP ask just a few post ago for me to show other options and I have. You have not shown him how he can go faster for cheaper. Have you? What he posted is he didn't have my experience and the terms I used were unfamiliar. If he's a young engineer it is my duty to share the things I know and encourage him that the task is not daunting. Telling an engineer to buy what he can build for himself because he will get shocked is SHOCKING! Showing him what is possible from the DIY end of things doesn't stop you from showing him anything but you haven't really as of yet. Generalities and what you have done. BUT what can HE do is what gets his car built not ev's under NDA's

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