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Old 06-15-2021, 03:02 PM   #151
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He brings it up I answer and it becomes my ego because it doesn't apply to me. Im not a sketchy mechanic regardless. Its no matter of ego its a matter of what I know and what I do not know. The bottom line is I'm very mechanically inclined no mater how many labels you throw out there.

I guess the car and how to build it within budget is a dead topic here.
He didn't bring up anything about you. You seem to take everything as a personal attack. I personally know culberro and he is not like that. Try sharing your ideas and if someone disagrees with you, or doesn't like your suggestion, let it go. Nobody here is on a mission to Mars where everything has to be 100% efficient and there can be no mistakes because the entire crew's lives are at stake. Chill a bit.
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:05 PM   #152
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I'd love to know what an actual expert would say about HK's recommended controller chip and example designs.

For those following this thread with access to real EV Inverter design engineers, and who can ask them non work related questions, please send them the below link to the datasheet and ask them about using this chip for a DIY high-voltage EV Inverter using the topology shown on Page 18 of the datasheet (3-phase 6-step Full Wave Motor Controller).
https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/mc33035-d.pdf

[Don't tell them this, but it's a ~30 year old Motorola chip with a maximum motor voltage of 40volts when used in the recommended topology. It's suitable for small motors, not traction motors. An example of a suitable electric vehicle application, using 24V drive, can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzqItc3o52s]
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:14 PM   #153
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Experts? Motorola isnt? OK.... But Bob theres no need to try to slam the chip many people are using it in EV already. This thread isnt about that chip but your making that your only argument because of your overcite about it. You know no battery power hand tool runs at 30hp and no rc toy uses sensored bldc controllers but RC CARS. Your still chasing your tail because I started off showing controllers much more advanced than reinharts and his budget wont by them either. Its isnt my fault real ev cost real money! If you have to write and ask somebody about the chip then its safe too say you dont much about it.

If you want to ask them about drives ask them about MGMCOMPPRO or APD.... and when you aske them about any of it they will tell you yes it works....

And why would you ask them about that topology when that isnt the one you were shown by me to drive a high current bridge

See this is really quite silly. What you have just posted about the chip mean nothing. Its a logic based ic you know fast acting . I suppose if you really knew about this there would be no heavy debate. He only needs basic motor control and a good regenerative brake the brushed or brushless dc motor provides. Its a great IC and particularly helpful for people not at inverter design and the complexed programming involved. You should be aware that digital logic circuits are very fast. Logic arrays are what you find in missile control systems and one problem with FOC based controllers is there ability to process fast enough for high pole count motors. High pole counts mean more torque. Fast MCUs mean more money and complex programming. You pay for that.... Since my proposal is fairly antiquated and simple it work within his budget and doesn't not require a fancy controller. It bring the price down considerably. This build wont don a 6000 inverter so why even go there if there even a chance to materialize. Why worry about high efficiency when HE said he doesn't care about 19 points of. And still sub 5s aren't too shabby for the money he will spend. There is nothing any simpler or safer about retrofitting a drive train or electronics from a 4 wheel drive toyota to a volvo. It def isn't cheaper.

Last edited by hk 40; 06-15-2021 at 03:44 PM..
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:35 PM   #154
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See this is really quite silly. What you have just posted about the chip mean nothing. Its a logic based ic you know fast acting . I suppose if you really knew about this there would be no heavy debate. He only needs basic motor control and a good regenerative brake the brushed or brushless dc motor provides. Its a great IC and particularly helpful for people not at inverter design and the complexed programming involved.
Where is all that regen energy going to go when the batteries can't take it?
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:40 PM   #155
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You mean you dont know and you work with this? How bout you tell me? Wed love to generate so much as to overcharge the battery. Underline your answer because thats hardly an engineering obstacle for those in the know.

Hubert

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Old 06-15-2021, 03:49 PM   #156
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You mean you dont know and you work with this? How bout you tell me?

Hubert
I cannot facepalm hard enough at this.

You're telling people to build a simple motor controller, and then mentioning the fact that it can regen.
Sure, for a while. Until there's no where else for that power to go and it blows up the motor drives.

Here's something that's actually constructive: https://trampaboards.com/1x-vesc-75v...--p-26627.html

Decent drive, but it does need constant cooling to hit those current targets. Like it either needs a heatsink and a 6" Spal fan, or a watercooled chill plate.

HK: You will post all day about how amazing such and such drive is, but there's a reason that vehicle motor drives are liquid cooled, or run with forced air convection and de-rated.
Those "small" drives wouldn't make it a minute of hard driving with the power levels you keep throwing around.
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:49 PM   #157
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You mean you dont know and you work with this? How bout you tell me?

Hubert

It seems to me culberro asked you a relevant question that you once again evaded. That is your MO throughout this thread and others you are in or started. So, if you are SUPPOSEDLY trying to help with the bench racing project, be helpful. Quit with the penis measuring contest.
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:51 PM   #158
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It seems to me culberro asked you a relevant question that you once again evaded. That is your MO throughout this thread and others you are in or started. So, if you are SUPPOSEDLY trying to help with the bench racing project, be helpful. Quit with the penis measuring contest.

That is a question he should know based on his experience. So he should be able to answer it. It make no sense to ask a question like this if you build evs for a living. The controllers are built and the ev's are moving down the track.

And I m here to help swedebrick the OP and have offered him alot if he chooses to use it . Right now I'm having to defend my advice to him which actually has nothing to do with helping him.

Last edited by hk 40; 06-15-2021 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:54 PM   #159
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Where is all that regen energy going to go when the batteries can't take it?
Not to mention burning up your brushed DC motor by using Regen.


Yeah it can be done, but it requires more knowledge and more circuitry than most hobbyists are going to be willing to mess with.
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:55 PM   #160
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That is a question he should know based on his experience. So he should be able to answer it. It make no sense to ask a question like this if you build evs for a living.
He did answer it, you didn't. I think he called you on bull**** and you had no logical response that didn't make you out to be a bull****ter. That's just my take on how your responded and continue to respond.

I'll sum it up for you. In a real world design meeting you would get the living **** slapped out of you and would be shown the door if you behaved like you do here. That's why I have already shown you the door here once. Do you have any clue how to carry on a discussion that actually becomes a learning experience for those involved?
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:00 PM   #161
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Not to mention burning up your brushed DC motor by using Regen.
Oh no, you mentioned a brushed DC motor. Prepare for the
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:03 PM   #162
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Oh no, you mentioned a brushed DC motor. Prepare for the
For real.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:05 PM   #163
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That is a question he should know based on his experience. So he should be able to answer it. It make no sense to ask a question like this if you build evs for a living. The controllers are built and the ev's are moving down the track.

And I m here to help swedebrick the OP and have offered him alot if he chooses to use it . Right now I'm having to defend my advice to him which actually has nothing to do with helping him.
Welcome to the real world vs. your personal podium. If your design is rock solid. defend it without taking offense. That's what it takes to get buy in from someone that is actually going to spend money implementing said design.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:06 PM   #164
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Experts? Motorola isnt? OK.... But Bob theres no need to try to slam the chip many people are using it in EV already. This thread isnt about that chip but your making that your only argument because of your overcite about it. You know no battery power hand tool runs at 30hp and no rc toy uses sensored bldc controllers but RC CARS. Your still chasing your tail because I started off showing controllers much more advanced than reinharts and his budget wont by them either. Its isnt my fault real ev cost real money! If you have to write and ask somebody about the chip then its safe too say you dont much about it.

If you want to ask them about drives ask them about MGMCOMPPRO or APD.... and when you aske them about any of it they will tell you yes it works....

And why would you ask them about that topology when that isnt the one you were shown by me to drive a high current bridge

See this is really quite silly. What you have just posted about the chip mean nothing. Its a logic based ic you know fast acting . I suppose if you really knew about this there would be no heavy debate. He only needs basic motor control and a good regenerative brake the brushed or brushless dc motor provides. Its a great IC and particularly helpful for people not at inverter design and the complexed programming involved. You should be aware that digital logic circuits are very fast. Logic arrays are what you find in missile control systems and one problem with FOC based controllers is there ability to process fast enough for high pole count motors. High pole counts mean more torque. Fast MCUs mean more money and complex programming. You pay for that.... Since my proposal is fairly antiquated and simple it work within his budget and doesn't not require a fancy controller. It bring the price down considerably. This build wont don a 6000 inverter so why even go there if there even a chance to materialize. Why worry about high efficiency when HE said he doesn't care about 19 points of. And still sub 5s aren't too shabby for the money he will spend. There is nothing any simpler or safer about retrofitting a drive train or electronics from a 4 wheel drive toyota to a volvo. It def isn't cheaper.
QFT. Emphasis added to show that HK thinks holmes is going to used a brushed motor for regen braking.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:07 PM   #165
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He did answer it, you didn't. I think he called you on bull**** and you had no logical response that didn't make you out to be a bull****ter. That's just my take on how your responded and continue to respond.

I'll sum it up for you. In a real world design meeting you would get the living **** slapped out of you and would be shown the door if you behaved like you do here. That's why I have already shown you the door here once. Do you have any clue how to carry on a discussion that actually becomes a learning experience for those involved?
Wheres his answer? A series wound DC motor and a brushed dc motor do not have the same torque speed relationship. Nothing about either would change how you mitigate the supposed problem.

U say im called out but I disagree because I know the answer and he hasnt given me one yet. If he thinks this is an engineering obstacle that only my suggestions have to deal with thats fine with me.

Im getting ready to go work on my 740 and other projects. Were just wasting time here....you will not build the car with the suggested pieces for his budget and it wont be safer that anything else that people have already done successfully. What this or that person has done or knows wont change this. Your free to waste more of your time talking about that kind of thing. I realize you always want the same few to know it all on this board but they do not.

Im sorry...because this huge problem doesn't explain the sub 10 quarters being run with the motors.....or the easy mechanics you see with your own eyes.


Regards
Hubert

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Old 06-15-2021, 04:07 PM   #166
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Maybe HK40 is the lead drivetrain engineer at Lordstown Motors?


Could explain a few things! lol
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:08 PM   #167
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Annnd it looks like HK is nuking all of his posts.

Edit: looks like that was from earlier...?
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:19 PM   #168
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No but re calling them helps. Why would I remove a post there's nothing here to cause me to do that. Certainly I can hold my own in any discussion here. The problem is I do it too well.

This was posted a month and 8 days ago
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...6&postcount=14

But liquid cooling is not how you mitigate regenerative braking ....... so I hope that wasn't the answer. Of course heat sinks and liquid cooling works with all drives as well.... even those with a Motorola brain.


Good Luck
Hubert

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Old 06-15-2021, 04:28 PM   #169
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Don’t really know that you do it well. Especially when touting on about nine points of efficiency and then throwing air cooled warp 9s in the same post. It’s absolutely beautiful. I can say that you really do have a place that you shine in here. Your deflection skills are absolutely beautiful, something even the best shady used car salesman can’t match.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:31 PM   #170
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I’m interested in hearing from everyone. Keep it civil and on track. That’s the only requirement.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:33 PM   #171
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Donít really know that you do it well. Especially when touting on about nine points of efficiency and then throwing air cooled warp 9s in the same post. Itís absolutely beautiful. I can say that you really do have a place that you shine in here. Your deflection skills are absolutely beautiful, something even the best shady used car salesman canít match.
You noticed that too? You didnít just fall off the turnip truck.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:39 PM   #172
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No not really because it was him that doesn't care actually about 19 points and I showed him if def matters but the motor suggested should work for him because it is much cheaper and will get him moving down the road since HE doesn't care. Anyone serious knows your not ever building anything highly efficiency for his budget I just live in the reality of it all.

Post something he can put in his car at his budget that will work and gets him down the road faster. If it isnt going to be efficient it may as well be fast.

Seriously I gotta go. I realize you'll throw ad hominem I cant for the next 6 hours. But you wont show him cheaper thrill. Ima leave to work on my projects giving you plenty of time to do just that. Right now its just circles anybody that can read knows exactly what I said and the context in which it was stated. If you wanna smear statements from one post to another versus what you have to offer within his budget its cool but If he has an iota of sense he knows very well the context since it was posted to him.

I don't have time to waste with ad hominem this was on its way to the bottom before I posted and Im sure thats where it will end.
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Old 06-15-2021, 06:47 PM   #173
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Where is all that regen energy going to go when the batteries can't take it?
To the resistor bank. If done the TB way, that means a pile of electric oven burner coils strapped to the roof rack lol.
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Old 06-15-2021, 07:13 PM   #174
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To the resistor bank. If done the TB way, that means a pile of electric oven burner coils strapped to the roof rack lol.
Perfect for warming up your frozen gas station burrito on the way into work.
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Old 06-15-2021, 08:29 PM   #175
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Perfect for warming up your frozen gas station burrito on the way into work.
or a heater in the winter for those northern climates ;)
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