home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-25-2021, 04:10 PM   #1
Bloody244
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Default b230R build

So i just blew up my daily driver 138k km b230f+t at 20ish psi trying to overtake a mk3 golf number 4 rod came outside to say hello.

im currently building a new engine its a 92 b230R block
i want it to be bulletproof for 300hp

stock b230 crank
acm.se forged h-beam
mahle cast piston
gasket matched 531 head
v16t cam
also planning to go with a haltech elite 1500

i have heard that the mahle pistons hold 400hp is that true?
__________________
'87 244 B230R @17psi 19t V16t cam gasket matched 531 Head ACM H-beam rods Do88 intercooler Accumulator Mod AW71
Instagram @Blue__244
Rip '87 B230f+t it did not stay window free 25.06.2021

Last edited by Bloody244; 06-30-2021 at 05:01 PM..
Bloody244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2021, 08:39 PM   #2
dl242gt
My car is fun hp club
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

If you search around you'll find plenty of testimonials of the stock pistons handling a lot of power. But a proper tune is what will make the engine last. If you don't know what happened to cause the engine failure. It would be wise to make sure things are well sorted out. Injectors flowing to rated flow, fuel supply up to the engines needs, and a stable good tune on the engine.
__________________
Dave,
1982 242 turbo. 338k miles. MVP coilovers and 3" exhaust. Flowed 405 with a V15. Cossie turbine housing with upgraded compressor housing. 90+, IPD remote oil filter. Some other goodness, too. Been lots of fun over 25 years. Restored in 2k. Now ready for a 2nd restoration.

1993 245 Classic, 435k miles, enem V15. IPD bars and chassis braces. Simons sport exhaust from Scandix. sbabbs ezk chip. Been a good road warrior. Genuine Volvo rebuilt leaky M47.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2021, 04:39 AM   #3
Bloody244
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Default

the engine was hurt because the cam plug blew out and because of that i ran the car with .5 liter oil for 40-45km. i think the rods were bent already because a year ago the boost solenoid didnt work. the boost was around 28 psi with stock lh2.2 sounded like firecrackers. it never ran right after that and huge pressure in the crankcase

Fuel pump is rated for 550 hp
injectors a flow tested and flow 550cc
AFR stayed at 12-11.5 during boost

Last edited by Bloody244; 07-04-2021 at 06:03 AM.. Reason: extra info
Bloody244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2021, 06:26 PM   #4
Fa182
Stage 1
 
Fa182's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Austria
Default

What's a B230R?
__________________
Fa182 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2021, 06:49 PM   #5
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fa182 View Post
What's a B230R?
There were L and R block castings, the differences seem to be apocryphal and undocumented; but, there are claims of stronger crank journals and thicker wall casting on the R blocks.
__________________
'79 242
943 pickup
Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2021, 06:54 PM   #6
Fa182
Stage 1
 
Fa182's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Austria
Default

I see, I've heard about L blocks before.
Fa182 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2021, 08:02 PM   #7
740atl
Gear acquisition syndrome
 
740atl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Default

The stock mahle pistons are forgiving but only give you a little leeway to detonation.


740atl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 11:51 AM   #8
Jussi Alanko
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Finland
Default

What turbo is your choice in this build?
Jussi Alanko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 01:07 PM   #9
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody244 View Post
So i just blew up my 138k km b230f+t at 20ish psi trying to overtake a mk3 golf number 4 rod came outside to say hello.

im currently building a new engine its a 92 b230R block
i want it to be bulletproof for 300hp

stock b230 crank
acm.se forged h-beam
mahle cast piston
gasket matched 531 head
v16t cam
also planning to go with a haltech elite 1500

i have heard that the mahle pistons hold 400hp is that true?
'
If you are building an engine from the bottom up I suggest you don't use stock Mahle pistons as the tech has come a long way since then. It not just about holding up. Avoiding detonation is the goal no matter what piston you have in there. The head design also plays a huge part in detonation. What would be nice is a toroidal head design. I wonder would a 4 stroke love it as much as a two stroke does. With such a head the CC can be tightened to the mechanical squish in a 2 stroke and it wont knock and pepper the head and piston. A gas ported skirted piston would be an upgrade to a Mahle. The Pistons ImportTuning used on his build I like alot as they appear to have a high wrist pin mounting location which help to stabilize the piston in the cylinder. The reversed dome petal top piston also looks promising as a piston performance upgrade in an engine build.

Regards
Hubert
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 02:25 PM   #10
Bloody244
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi Alanko View Post
What turbo is your choice in this build?
the 19t from my other engine with the 90+ manifold
also could just buy a custom header

Last edited by Bloody244; 06-30-2021 at 02:38 PM..
Bloody244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 02:29 PM   #11
Bloody244
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
'
If you are building an engine from the bottom up I suggest you don't use stock Mahle pistons as the tech has come a long way since then. It not just about holding up. Avoiding detonation is the goal no matter what piston you have in there. The head design also plays a huge part in detonation. What would be nice is a toroidal head design. I wonder would a 4 stroke love it as much as a two stroke does. With such a head the CC can be tightened to the mechanical squish in a 2 stroke and it wont knock and pepper the head and piston. A gas ported skirted piston would be an upgrade to a Mahle. The Pistons ImportTuning used on his build I like alot as they appear to have a high wrist pin mounting location which help to stabilize the piston in the cylinder. The reversed dome petal top piston also looks promising as a piston performance upgrade in an engine build.

Regards
Hubert
you are back haha. I hope it stays that way and i will look it the pistons more
Bloody244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 02:43 PM   #12
cosbySweater
Board Member
 
cosbySweater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Monterey/Falun
Default

I would get a turbo with a bigger turbine on it, the stock pistons will be fine for your power level of that is cheapest and easiest for you to get. Just get a reliable tuner and a good fuel system behind it and you will be fine. Linuxman on the forum here crested 700whp on stock pistons recently.
__________________
1974 AMC Gremlin, lq4, 7875 billet, ss2 cam, 80e, 3600 stall converter, Holley Terminator x
1984 Volvo 245 Om606td, 722.6, Lifted
1995 Porsche 993
2013 VW Passat TDI
Quote:
Originally Posted by bricktop420 View Post
Thank you very much everybody... i now feel sufficiently retarded and will go cry in the corner...
cosbySweater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 02:50 PM   #13
Bloody244
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Default

the problem is that i made the tests needed to make my car street legal with the 19t so im stuck with it, if i get a hx30 i have to pay around 1500€ just for tests and still have to register it to the Tüv and insurance.
Bloody244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 02:53 PM   #14
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody244 View Post
So i just blew up my 138k km b230f+t at 20ish psi trying to overtake a mk3 golf number 4 rod came outside to say hello.
Sure hope it was a turbo vr6

Quote:
im currently building a new engine its a 92 b230R block
i want it to be bulletproof for 300hp

gasket matched 531 head

i have heard that the mahle pistons hold 400hp is that true?
Skip the gasket matching, you're only going to make things worse for flow. Send the head to a knowledgably porter, or open the chamber and port the exhaust bowl and SSR yourself.

Stock turbo pistons will be fine for your power levels. Forged pistons will take ever so slightly more abuse, but you can still kill them in a few seconds with bad tuning. Forged pistons can also wear out faster depending on a few things.
__________________
Cult Person. Pissing in your Kool-Aid.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 03:17 PM   #15
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Sure hope it was a turbo vr6

Skip the gasket matching, you're only going to make things worse for flow. Send the head to a knowledgably porter, or open the chamber and port the exhaust bowl and SSR yourself.

Stock turbo pistons will be fine for your power levels. Forged pistons will take ever so slightly more abuse, but you can still kill them in a few seconds with bad tuning. Forged pistons can also wear out faster depending on a few things.
+1

Also, forged pistons usually run looser piston>wall, so more cold piston slap, more cold blowby, more possibility of bad/initial tuning to cause catastrophic engine failure if your not on top of things.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 03:25 PM   #16
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

On the plus side, if you do have some issues along the way, you'll probably have to pull the motor apart and replace things, but there's a far better chance that it won't completely self destruct and require an entire new motor.

I pinged one set of forged pistons to death due to a lack of fuel pump capacity - broke the top ring, collapsed the top ring land... but the pistons hung together, so I was able to take it apart and rebuild it due to low compression, not due to it throwing a rod and scattering bits all over the road. And another time (which I can't really believe happened) when a wrist pin broke, I drove it a decent number of miles (even with some full boosty pulls) with a 'lifter tick'. Could a stock cast Mahle piston hang together with only one half of the pin holding it in? Probably not.
__________________
'63 PV Rat Rod
'93 245 16VT Classic #1141
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 03:31 PM   #17
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody244 View Post
you are back haha. I hope it stays that way and I will look it the pistons more

Thanks! That's politics for ya....but it doesn't truly stop anything. Were still building and sharing inclusively with our real friends here and abroad. Im very happy in my life and nothing can change this or how things really work. Please take an in depth look at modern piston tech. There's alot of improvement to be had there.

Good luck
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 06-30-2021 at 03:38 PM..
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 03:38 PM   #18
Bloody244
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Sure hope it was a turbo vr6



Skip the gasket matching, you're only going to make things worse for flow. Send the head to a knowledgably porter, or open the chamber and port the exhaust bowl and SSR yourself.

Stock turbo pistons will be fine for your power levels. Forged pistons will take ever so slightly more abuse, but you can still kill them in a few seconds with bad tuning. Forged pistons can also wear out faster depending on a few things.
it was a 90 hp tdi haha
it was gasket matched when i got it. im going to order from overboostracing.se a stage 2 or 3 ported 531 head with larger valves

Last edited by Bloody244; 06-30-2021 at 03:44 PM..
Bloody244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 04:12 PM   #19
linuxman51
BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN!
 
linuxman51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: mont, AL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody244 View Post
it was a 90 hp tdi haha
it was gasket matched when i got it. im going to order from overboostracing.se a stage 2 or 3 ported 531 head with larger valves
I'm not sure you'll get much out of a ported head with the 19t, the problem is the hotside is fairly restrictive on even the biggest td04's. I'd save that money for now, and if you decide to re-cert it later with a more modern turbo, re-visit it if you feel it's a restriction. At 300hp however, even a stock 530 head isn't really much of a holdup. I would second the longer rod/higher pin thought process, there are trade-offs that some folks will argue until they're blue in the face (and you can probably search those threads out if you'd like), and I believe you can bump the rod c2c up from the stock 152mm to 160 or a little more, and still retain a decent ring pack. It's been admittedly a while since I've looked at the specific numbers, but the long rod 2.5 I put together in 09 did quite well until the block itself decided to spoil the fun.

On the subject of stock pistons (Since you asked), I've personally had the NA pistons in my 16v car up to 670whp at around 40psi, any number of people have made over 300whp for quite some time with na and turbo pistons, so if you were required to use them (doubt tuv would open the engine up though) I wouldn't really worry about it, but if you can run newer stuff I think you'll like how it performs a bit better over the OE stuff.
__________________
"They bum rushed them in their own crib, they drank all their beer, they partied with their ladies and they left with the trophy"

Now with in-house Dyno tuning!

Megasquirt Tuning!
linuxman51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 04:29 PM   #20
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
Also, forged pistons usually run looser piston>wall, so more cold piston slap, more cold blowby, more possibility of bad/initial tuning to cause catastrophic engine failure if your not on top of things.
100% this.
Old rally race motor sat for ~ 4 months and got some rust in the bores in that time. Upon start up, the rust chewed up the thin ring pack which caused excessive blow by. Engine made it about 3 min of racing before it holed 2 pistons and pushed most of the oil out through the breather.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 04:48 PM   #21
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

High wrist pins mitigate alot of piston slap. I consider detonation a poor enuf tune and the Mahle is there with the results of that. No piston performs well in a poorly tuned motor. No motor will hold up under intense detonation which should really be no issue with 550cc injectors @ 300hp with capable tuners. Poor tuning should never be a consideration in my mind.
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 04:59 PM   #22
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Poor tuning should never be a consideration in my mind.
In my case, the tune was good, the engine was used for a few years prior and showed no issues on inspection before the race car was stored. The blow-by oil diluted the charge and significantly lowered the octane rating. It only exploderated the pistons that were in bores that showed signs of rust.

Doesn't really matter. The new engine makes more power and torque using stock cast volvo pistons
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 05:03 PM   #23
hk 40
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: RTP, North Carolina
Default

Thats great but even Volvo amends them for more power. Group A is skeletonized One car experience does not deem a cast piston over a forged one. The argument about strength is a no brainer and clearly the world of high performance and durability usually comes at forged offerings. All things equal and done correctly you wont out perform a good gas ported forged piston with a old cast Mahle. I better explain that none of this means he cannot run a stock mahle in a 300 hp redblock. But better is still better and there's no point in skewing the facts. The truth does actually matter.

Last edited by hk 40; 06-30-2021 at 05:22 PM..
hk 40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 05:47 PM   #24
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

It’s all good til the guy slaps a set of 1000s on it and drives a cold engine to the tuner just to find out that he’s 2qts over filled with gas and old Rodney starts knocking like 7.3idi.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 10:19 PM   #25
Marvelous3
Who engineered this?
 
Marvelous3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Atlanta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody244 View Post
the engine was hurt because the cam plug blew out and i ran the car with .5 liter oil for 40-45km. i think the rods were bent already because a year ago the boost solenoid didnt work. the boost was around 28 psi with stock lh2.2 sounded like firecrackers. it never ran right after that and huge pressure in the crankcase

Fuel pump is rated for 550 hp
injectors a flow tested and flow 550cc
AFR stayed at 12-11.5 during boost
So what you’re saying is your marginally neglected the engine/didn’t do some solid moding to start with.

You can do 300 no problem on stock bottom end parts.
__________________

1990 240dl Kaplhenke Coilover Daily
1991 245+16 Valve Turbo Microsquirt
Need Hyundai or Genesis parts? PM me for Genuine Hyundai or Genesis parts
Marvelous3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.