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Old 02-23-2021, 03:02 PM   #1
HiMiles
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Default 245 DE/Canyon Carver build plans, have some q's, in Colorado!

Afternoon ladies and gents,
I recently acquired an absolute gem of a '93 245 with 350k on the odometer and in impeccable condition mechanically and aesthetically. So obviously, it needs a +T, big sways and an LSD.

Anyways, I've done all the searching but would like to hear from those with first hand experience on a few things.

The intended purpose of the car is to be a daily drive-able, weekend canyon carver/DE car on every HPR lapping day I can make it to. Reliability and proper driving characteristics are my priority. Budget isn't massive, trying to stay under $6K while using quality parts and retaining the ability to *BEAT* the f*** out of it without much fuss.

Plans-
-Throw in a VX cam while I gather +T parts to make the car driveable.
-+T from a late 700/900
-E-fan setup, retain AC and PS
-Hopefully make ~220WHP RELIABLY, pushin 8psi
-Factory turbo, maybe a Mistu unit if I'm feelin it.
-As many factory Volvo parts as possible.

- WC T5 Swap from an 'ole foxbody
- DeeWorks and Yoshifab parts, as I have no ability to fab
- Saucy shifter that locates the knob where it should be
- Retaining the cable, no hydro
- Limit some slip in the stick axle back there

- Some IPD springs and turbo boge dampers until I decide what coilover setup I want.
- IPD Sways
- Some sort of strut brace (Kaplehenke if I can find one)
- Maybe adjustable rear linkage?

- Ideally a square 205 setup wrapped around some 15's that clear everything
- Semi-aggressive pads that still stop in the cold, don't care about noise.

I understand this is a pretty tried and true setup which is why I'm going with it, I might get crazy and swap an LS/T56 in after I grenade the redblock but that's hopefully a few years away.

My questions are:
- Can I count on the 700/900 2.4 ECU to maintain safe AFR's during extended thrashing?
- Should I throw in a 240T oil cooler to maintain sub 250* oil temps? Gonna run Rotella 15W-40 OBVIOUSLY!
- Is a crank scraper/baffling needed or can I throw in an extra qt and send it?
- Where in gods name can I find a +T setup here in CO? Our JY's are picked over and our classifieds are bare of brick parts. Sad, really.
-Anybody in CO wanna fab a DP/exhaust for /monies/beers/highfives/allofit?

Also looking for general feedback on the build proposed. I found A LOT of theoretical feedback (thanks internet) on all of these things whilst searching but very little first hand experience and am hoping I can find some here. Hope you're all having a solid week so far!
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Old 02-23-2021, 03:14 PM   #2
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Following. This is essentially what I want out of my new 244. Except I'm going to remain NA, but skimmed head and a cam.


I'm going to save my sheckels for Yoshifab Gaz coilovers: https://yoshifab.com/store/240-gaz-f...lover-set.html Having had some experience with Gaz dampers. They are gooduns.

Really want 16x7 BBS RS's, but will probably have to settle for some oem knockoff basketweaves. The Ford/Lincoln Crown Vic ones look pretty good.


Chassis braces, good tires, way understressed motor. Should be a lot of fun as a good handling daily.
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Old 02-23-2021, 06:36 PM   #3
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I would avoid that VX cam. Heres my car on the dyno with a 15g turbo, 3" maf and brown tops from 2010. Didn't feel like it had much for steam.

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Old 02-23-2021, 07:34 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by HiMiles View Post
Afternoon ladies and gents,

Plans-
-Throw in a VX cam while I gather +T parts to make the car driveable.
Wouldn't suggest the VX cam, especially not for turbo use. IPD's turbo cam produces pretty good results and will probably wake it up some in the meantime as well.

-+T from a late 700/900

Yes.

-E-fan setup, retain AC and PS
Big fan of e-fan conversions. Feels worth it the first time you start the car and don't hear the WHOOSH.

-Hopefully make ~220WHP RELIABLY, pushin 8psi
You'll need a lot more than that to make 220 wheel. I made 184 whp/253ft-lb with the stock Mitsubishi 13C turbo in my 940 with a boost controller set to 13 psi and chips.

-Factory turbo, maybe a Mistu unit if I'm feelin it.

-As many factory Volvo parts as possible.

Also a good idea.

- WC T5 Swap from an 'ole foxbody
May want to consider the CD009 Nissan gearbox as well. I don't have any experience with them personally but it's a much more modern option and at least around here Fox Mustang stuff is starting to get thin on the ground.

- DeeWorks and Yoshifab parts, as I have no ability to fab
Nowhere to do it, no experience, or both?

- Limit some slip in the stick axle back there
Essential for any performance chassis. Don't cheap out with a locker/G80/welded diff. Truetrac and others seem to work well.

- Some IPD springs and turbo boge dampers until I decide what coilover setup I want.
Consider that lowering springs only lower the car, not stiffen it. I personally like Bilstein B6 dampers having read into this a lot.

- IPD Sways
I'd suggest the IPD front sway bar only, if you can get it. Too much rear bar seems to bind up the rear suspension.

- Some sort of strut brace (Kaplehenke if I can find one)
- Maybe adjustable rear linkage?
Important if you're gonna change the ride height drastically.

- Ideally a square 205 setup wrapped around some 15's that clear everything
Not much tire for 220whp and ~3000 lbs of 240. Anything ~200TW should work well for a weekend/fun car but may be too much for a daily.

- Semi-aggressive pads that still stop in the cold, don't care about noise.
I like Hawk's pad options for the 240.

My questions are:
- Can I count on the 700/900 2.4 ECU to maintain safe AFR's during extended thrashing?
Dang, I wonder if there's anyone that makes stuff that can help with that...

- Should I throw in a 240T oil cooler to maintain sub 250* oil temps? Gonna run Rotella 15W-40 OBVIOUSLY!
I wouldn't consider it a necessity. We don't run one on our race car, but that has no turbo so less heat for sure.

- Is a crank scraper/baffling needed or can I throw in an extra qt and send it?
We overfill our race car just a little bit. Maybe half a quart.

- Where in gods name can I find a +T setup here in CO? Our JY's are picked over and our classifieds are bare of brick parts. Sad, really.
-Anybody in CO wanna fab a DP/exhaust for /monies/beers/highfives/allofit?
Feedback in bold...
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:00 PM   #5
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Glad to hear that last week's great deal on the '93 manny 245 went to an enthusiast, instead of someone just wanting the cheapest running car on craigslist to trash and neglect.

Around here, the salvage yards are rapidly drying up for the 240/740/940s. They heyday seems like it was 2017 or 2018, with very few showing up anymore. The Denver upullandpay goes through their imports in a little over 30 days. There's also an Aurora one. I haven't tried it, but they offer email notification. A fair number of the 940s that show up are turbos, but you need to go to the yard to find out, preferably on the first day it's listed.

For the +T parts, you can post in Wanted, or search through the For Sale section for long standing members that are parting out cars, or who are kitting the +T parts, and send them a PM. I haven't kept up with what the CO Volvo shops still have in inventory - if they still have any 240/940 parts, they may be willing to make a deal. Denver has Baker Garage, Boulder has Swedish Motors, Ft.Collins has Carl Duke.

I have a leftover chopped off conical flange downpipe, but you'd still need to find a muffler shop to connect it up to the cat. If you're going for more power, a later flat or angled flange turbo would be better -- see if the seller can chop off a foot or two of the downpipe to go with it.
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:29 PM   #6
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Thanks for the stellar feedback so far!

HiSPL,
Those Gaz units look real nice. My coilover debate is between those and the Koni Sport Kaplehenke's. It's clear that the Gaz dampers perform much better, but I can get the Konis from FCP and rock the lifetime warranty, which is golden on these trash roads.
- Transmission
I'll look into the CD009, I thought I remember hearing about them having syncro issues but they're certainly more abundant than T5's. Which sucks... five years ago you could buy some trash 5.0 fox off the list for a grand or two. Now a WC T5 is a grand or two!

-Fabrication
Both, kinda. I have a detached 2 car but no electricity without an e-cord from the house. I also have very little fab skill. I'm almost a senior Mech E student so I can design what I want but my weld game sucks. Makes me wish I'd just gotten fab certs sometimes. I'm very eager to learn though.

-IPD Setup
The IPD springs do have a slightly higher spring rate than stock so it would stiffen it up somewhat. I've ran Bilstein monotubes on a lot of different platforms in the past and have absolutely LOVED them but they seem to get a bad wrap here on the 200. Are yours revalved? You enjoy the ride quality? Not too much rebound?
IPD front sway only? Wouldn't that make things quite understeer biased?

205's are skinny, I agree. Most of what I've read says that's as wide as I can go without rubbing. I'd love to go 225 all around if you could suggest an offset that'd make that work?

Oiling-
Sweet! Stoked to hear that. I'll just install a temp gauge and monitor at first. 40W oil should be able to take 300* for short periods, right..? lol

Thanks again!

bob,
You can't imagine how thrilled I was to see that ad within ten minutes of its posting! It's an INCREDIBLE car, records back to 299 miles(not 299k, 299... 1993) and in beautiful shape. Seller was an awesome guy too, he clearly loved the car. Best $1500 deal I've ever seen.
I'll post a wanted ad on the list tomorrow and pray some hoarder wants to offload his goodies. I'll also call around to the shops you've mentioned. I'd happily take that down pipe off your hands!

Texas,
I appreciate the advice. Is your setup a +T or an actual B230FT? I'll change my power target to a smooth 220bhp then ;)
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:39 PM   #7
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Oh yeah, I should note that I too am very happy this didn’t become somebody’s trash wagön. Luckily the seller wasn’t going to let that happen. He literally interviewed me like I was dating his daughter, it was beautiful really. Crack free dash baby!
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiMiles View Post
Thanks for the stellar feedback so far!

- Transmission
I'll look into the CD009, I thought I remember hearing about them having syncro issues but they're certainly more abundant than T5's. Which sucks... five years ago you could buy some trash 5.0 fox off the list for a grand or two. Now a WC T5 is a grand or two!

-Fabrication
Both, kinda. I have a detached 2 car but no electricity without an e-cord from the house. I also have very little fab skill. I'm almost a senior Mech E student so I can design what I want but my weld game sucks. Makes me wish I'd just gotten fab certs sometimes. I'm very eager to learn though.

-IPD Setup
The IPD springs do have a slightly higher spring rate than stock so it would stiffen it up somewhat. I've ran Bilstein monotubes on a lot of different platforms in the past and have absolutely LOVED them but they seem to get a bad wrap here on the 200. Are yours revalved? You enjoy the ride quality? Not too much rebound?
IPD front sway only? Wouldn't that make things quite understeer biased?

205's are skinny, I agree. Most of what I've read says that's as wide as I can go without rubbing. I'd love to go 225 all around if you could suggest an offset that'd make that work?

Oiling-
Sweet! Stoked to hear that. I'll just install a temp gauge and monitor at first. 40W oil should be able to take 300* for short periods, right..? lol

Thanks again!
First off, I'm an EE student building a 940 for fun daily/track use so we're kind of in a similar boat here.

Admittedly I've never run 240 Bilsteins, only 940 ones which have been a complete game changer so far in terms of making the car feel like it wants to have fun. Not harsh although there's an obvious difference in ride. Stock valving with (actually somewhat stiff for OEM) stock springs off of some exotic non-US market 760 application. ~180 lbs wheel rate front and rear.

I'd look through the parts catalogs for 240s on gcp.se and try and find out what kind of a stiff factory spring you can get. They made these cars for a lot of different purposes including police/ambulance so you'd be surprised what kind of stuff you can find in there. I think MikeP measured 240 IPD springs in the spring rate thread pinned here, and the stock ones have wire diameter listed in the catalog usually so you can roughly do the math on those.

As for how much tire you can fit, you'd have to measure AND decide what you're willing to do to the car. Tire Rack has tread widths for everything they sell, and a 205 is not necessarily the same as any other 205 so it really depends on the model of tire. Racy tires run wide.

Theoretically adding front roll stiffness will add understeer, but given the suspension geometry of these cars there is almost zero camber gain in roll in the front (in fact it's positive camber gain in roll once the ball joint end of the control arm is above the axis it pivots around), as opposed to in the rear where the contact patch is damn near flat on the ground at all times.

The effect, then, is that with a stiffer front end you can do a better job using the front contact patch, actually adding front grip despite the theory. (this only works to a certain extent of course)

And last off, an oil temp gauge is probably a reasonable idea.

EDIT: here's my car on the dyno with electronic boost controller/tune
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:16 AM   #9
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If you decide to go with, and can find, a good conical flange turbo, let me know and the downpipe is yours - link
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Old 02-24-2021, 11:14 AM   #10
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Texas,
I appreciate the advice. Is your setup a +T or an actual B230FT? I'll change my power target to a smooth 220bhp then ;)
I ditched that setup a few years after that dyno run to go to a 16v big turbo setup that ended up just being a complete failure. I do miss my old 8v+t setup. It never let me down.

Im now Ls setup. Been this for 6 years now. I want nothing to do roadblocks to be honest. I wish you the best brother. A lot of season'd and experience with this basic setup. I imagine you can find all the parts you need by posting in wanted section and new parts from Ben at BNE or Josh at yoshifab.

You can also check out Dave Bartons page 240turbo.com
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Old 02-24-2021, 01:52 PM   #11
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Run 5w40 or 10w40. Bearing clearances are much too tight on these engines to get away with cold starts on 15W. You will end up wiping bearings in less time for no discernable benefit.

Myself, I run 10W40 in the warm months and 5W40 in the cold.

In my 8v experience what worked best for cheap reliable power was the following recipe:
1987 B230FT
15g with ported turbine housing, T3 actuator, running 16 psi
Port matched 90+
Evo 9 stock intercooler
V grind camshaft
3" downpipe abd catalytic converter
2.5" catback
LH 2.4/EZK116 with chips
Some injectors...I think Deka 55s and a 3" MAF

This netted me 225 whp @7000/220 lbs ft @4000 on a Dyno Dynamics at 500 ft DA, 80⁰F, with a nice wide powerband.

Your altitude will negatively impact performance but for a simple setup like this you can't really go wrong.
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:20 PM   #12
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I like Mobil 1 0W-40 personally, although a good 10W-40 or 5W-40 should also work well.

Peak power at 7k rpm with a V cam and stock head???
Which turbine housing on the 15G?
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:34 PM   #13
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That engine was a freak of nature. Never been or driven another one that had quite the same level of punch out of a stockish setup. Turbine housing was a ported conical to open up the AR a good deal.
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:55 PM   #14
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The fact that it's with the little housing (albeit ported) makes even stranger. Must be the skinny rods, or Illuminati witchcraft. Do you have a graph? I'm thirsty for a broad 8v powerband.

I need to get my car back on the dyno...
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Old 02-24-2021, 03:27 PM   #15
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I am actually looking for it. The small crank journals and light rods probably make a very noticeable difference in terms of parasitic losses.
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Old 02-24-2021, 03:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by HiMiles View Post
Thanks for the stellar feedback so far!

HiSPL,
Those Gaz units look real nice. My coilover debate is between those and the Koni Sport Kaplehenke's. It's clear that the Gaz dampers perform much better, but I can get the Konis from FCP and rock the lifetime warranty, which is golden on these trash roads.
BNEshop aka Kaplhenke can get GAZ inserts for the coilovers as well if you want to go with that flavor
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:15 PM   #17
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I'm leaning towards the Gaz CO's after having some GAZ shocks on another car. They were great on the street. Very comfortable, yet very controlled. I can only imagine how good the full coilover set will be.
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Old 02-25-2021, 01:48 PM   #18
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Thanks for the solid information everybody!

The more research I do into the GAZ dampers, the more the want intensifies. I’ve read quite a few first hand testimonials of folks down right abusing them for thousands of miles without conflict, and that’s what we need here in CO as our roadways resemble rally stages.

When I find my +T setup, I’ll obviously swap over to a turbo cam for that tasty negative overlap.
BUT
Before I do that, I’d really like to not want to drink bleach with my M-cam. Can anybody tell me why a VX is a bad idea while I’m still NA?! I’d like to maintain low end torque with a rev-happier powerband. I’m not gonna wait until I’m +T to send it on the track because god knows when a setup will appear.
-Even if I’m pushing a neck-snapping 120bhp on a VX stick, why wouldn’t I want to do that over the M cam that doesn’t want to exceed 4K without throwing a fit?

-Also, can BNE supply some GAZ dampers at a better cost than Yoshi?

-My initial setup is going to be some IPD springs, need I strap on the rear adjustables for a modest decrease in ride height?

Currently ironing out the details of what to do with my LH3.1 and the +T. I’m seeing a lot of push to just swap over to the 2.4 harness and be done with it. I don’t love the idea of that, I like the superior 3.1 adaptability. Megasquirt? Wonder who will tune it here in CO since it’s not a WRX. Sigh.

Also considering just swapping in a B230FT from a 740T if I can find one. That sounds easier to find than a +T.

But on that note, if I’m only looking at 180Whp max, then why not stay M47? T5 seems a bit unnecessary for just a slight bump above the factory B230FT that the M46/47 doesn’t seem to have a lot of trouble behind.
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:05 PM   #19
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The VX is ill suited to a redblock because it matches a ****ty exhaust port to a tiny exhaust lobe. Either find a V or an Enem V15 (aka IPD Billet Turbo) cam.
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:39 PM   #20
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B230FT - 200 RWHP
- VX cam (was etched on end of cam)
- Billet rods
- Microsquirt
- T3/T4 50 trim @ 12 PSI
- DEKA 80#
- 2.5" exhaust - no cat (not street driven)
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Old 02-25-2021, 03:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redblockpowered View Post
The fact that it's with the little housing (albeit ported) makes even stranger. Must be the skinny rods, or Illuminati witchcraft. Do you have a graph? I'm thirsty for a broad 8v powerband.

I need to get my car back on the dyno...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
I am actually looking for it. The small crank journals and light rods probably make a very noticeable difference in terms of parasitic losses.
Found it. Ignore crossing off and rewriting. It was me not believing the numbers



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