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240 Righteous Gremlin - dying, no start

mschultz373 said:
in tank pump is totally dead. THAT has been the issue. removed supply line from main pump, then removed fuse #4 and jumped to right side - no gas coming out at all. so the intermittent problem and starting issues have been related to a dead in-tank pump. unsure how long.
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Wait a minute... in the very first post, you said the intank pump was drawing 3.1 Amps -- which implies it was functioning, even as you were beginning to chase gremlins. And you sure have mentioned a lot of 'em.

dl242gt said:
The problem with intermittent problems is you can only troubleshoot when it's happening.
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Bingo.

mschultz373 said:
- car is getting spark, ignition timing is steady at idle, BUT the car did die at idle with tach light attached to battery after ~2-4min. It would not start for a period of time, then started back up and idled strong for ~20min.
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Getting spark while it's idling is irrelevant compared to knowing if it's getting spark as you crank it when it won't catch. A cheap inline spark plug checker would tell you a lot, if you can see it while you're cranking...

i wonder if my ignition coil may be the fault? but would a coil fault create this intermittent condition?
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That was my very first instinct. Dying when hot is a classic symptom of a bad coil winding.

While I suppose there are many items that can temporarily fail when hot, and then magically work again 1/2 hour later, the two that come to mind the most rapidly are ignition coil and main fuel pump.
 
I hadn't checked the actual delivery. but even today, the in tank pump is apparently drawing ~3A but there's no fuel being delivered by it. i'll known more once I pull the unit. as of now, I can verify that it's not pumping fuel out of the supply hose when powering it.

i did pull the ICU box and the soldering joints are fine. i have the sleeves on pins 3, 5 and 9 to the ignition harness. just as more observations on this car.

i don't know, I'm still pretty green on the Volvos and cars generally so my apologies if I miscommunicate or go down irrelevant rabbit holes.
 
mschultz373 said:
I hadn't checked the actual delivery. but even today, the in tank pump is apparently drawing ~3A but there's no fuel being delivered by it. i'll known more once I pull the unit. as of now, I can verify that it's not pumping fuel out of the supply hose when powering it.
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Hmm, I wonder if the impeller has broken off or the little internal hose has become disconnected.

Might want to order that bit of hose just in case before you open things up.
 
I replaced the in-tank pump with a new unit and new filter. old unit's filter was completely shredded and looked like elements of it may have gotten sucked into the pump.

car ran fine for a week or so, then tonight - same thing. pulled out of a parking lot, got 20ft, car died. cranked fine but wouldn't turn over. I sat for a minute, then it started and it drove home.

i need to check and make sure the bung nut didn't get loose in the back, as I was hearing some kind of noise coming from the in-tank pump area when driving. but man this is so frustrating, what the hell.
 
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back again. car was running fine all week - then had a pretty bad condition last night where pedal cut out and it died, started for a minute, then died again, etc.

i was able to, along the side of the road, do a bit of diag and can confirm that during the condition, the car is getting fuel at the rail (possibly getting flooded during excessive cranks after it dies??). i also can confirm it's getting spark; strangely, as I was checked the #1 plug, it seemed weak at first, a pale blue, then it got stronger and the car actually turned over and idled on 3 cylinders. i then rreplaced plug #1 and the car drove home normally.

i am really at my wits end. i may just take this car offline and plan some dumb project with it or scrap it. it's simply getting too stressful to never know if i'll be stranded with it or not. so any advice would be really, really appreciated.
 
I had a nearly identical issue and it turned out to be a plugged fuel filter. I thought this was eliminated as a cause because it had been changed recently. As the problems got worse, someone on here recommended checking the fuel pressure when the issue occurred and sure enough fuel pressure would drop below 30psi and spike down even lower when the issue would occur. Pulled the fuel filter and dumped a bunch of gasoline that looked more like blood than gasoline. Turns out my fuel tank had rust build up from running fuel with ethanol in it. It would intermittently get sucked into the pick up pump. Not sure why the issue would resolve it self over periods of time ranging from a couple of minutes to an hour. Sure enough once I replaced the fuel filter and acid treated the tank, the issue never recurred.

I too believed it was certainly an electrical gremlin based on how suddenly the surging acceleration would occur and how randomly intermittent it was, how ever I was wrong!
 
Lando said:
I had a nearly identical issue and it turned out to be a plugged fuel filter. I thought this was eliminated as a cause because it had been changed recently. As the problems got worse, someone on here recommended checking the fuel pressure when the issue occurred and sure enough fuel pressure would drop below 30psi and spike down even lower when the issue would occur. Pulled the fuel filter and dumped a bunch of gasoline that looked more like blood than gasoline. Turns out my fuel tank had rust build up from running fuel with ethanol in it. It would intermittently get sucked into the pick up pump. Not sure why the issue would resolve it self over periods of time ranging from a couple of minutes to an hour. Sure enough once I replaced the fuel filter and acid treated the tank, the issue never recurred.

I too believed it was certainly an electrical gremlin based on how suddenly the surging acceleration would occur and how randomly intermittent it was, how ever I was wrong!
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guess who has a fuel filter laying around and the day off tomorrow??

:w00t:

When you say acid treat the tank, you mean drop it and put like acetone in it?
 
mschultz373 said:
guess who has a fuel filter laying around and the day off tomorrow??

:w00t:

When you say acid treat the tank, you mean drop it and put like acetone in it?
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No, I cleaned it with simple green first and then threw a bunch of nuts and bolts in there with muriatic acid (the pool stuff you can get at Home Depot) and then shook it around until all the rust was gone and bare metal was all that was left. Then I used phosphoric acid as a final treatment because it will leave behind a phosphate layer that prevents flash rust from showing up as soon as the rinse water dries. Then a thorough rinse with tap water, followed by a coating of WD40. The WD40 is also critical to preventing flash rust. Drain what will drip out the bottom and fill it with ethanol free. I now avoid fuel with ethanol in any of my carbureted engines or equipment with steel fuel tanks.

No guarantee that this will solve your problem, but you could probably skip the fuel pressure test, if you see discolored fuel drain out of the upstream side of the filter.
 
Get a 1992+ fuel rail with a Schrader test valve?

Carry a can of starting fluid and use when no start?


Carry a timing light for a spark test?
 
ZVOLV said:
Get a 1992+ fuel rail with a Schrader test valve?

Carry a can of starting fluid and use when no start?


Carry a timing light for a spark test?
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I got a newer fuel rail from someone on here (Gary if I remember correctly).
 
been meaning to get a rail with a shrader valve. i have a timing light - why I haven't thought to put that in my car, I don't know.

i have a pressure gauge but haven't as of yet figured out to get the fittings set up to run the gauge while having the car run. i haven't thought that deeply on it though.
 
Lando said:
I now avoid fuel with ethanol in any of my carbureted engines or equipment with steel fuel tanks.
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i had never thought of this as it relates to tank rust, but I read people suggesting that pure gas results in better MPG for these old cars?
 
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mschultz373 said:
i had never thought of this as it relates to tank rust, but I read people suggesting that pure gas results in better MPG for these old cars?
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Water is miscible in alcohols, and ethanol is also hygroscopic. It attracts moisture from the air, which can rust out your tank over time. I haven’t really noticed any performance differences between ethanol free or e15 fuels. I got out of the habit of tracking my fuel economy but it didn’t make enough difference for me to notice.

Now this takes quite a while to build up any appreciable amount of moisture in your fuel so shouldn’t be a problem for most daily drivers. It’s probably an unnecessary precaution, but it’s easy enough since I have ethanol free right down the street from my work. I’ve filled it with e15 plenty of times when ethanol free wasn’t available.
 
I narrowed the issue down - it's a spark issue, getting lost somehow it seems.

i had a test light rigged to the negative (#1) coil side and car went down, died. light stayed on. so the ICU is OK.

I rigged a test light to the positive side of the coil thereafter and it remained on during the cranking.

I then rigged my timing light up and cranked - no spark apparently. not on any of the plugs. after waiting for a few minutes, with light still rigged, i got light/spark and the car turned over.

so the issue must be between the center coil terminal and the plugs. i can check continuity of the wires there, and then visually inspect the cap/rotor?
 
Look at schematics. The EZK doesn't power the coil.

You should also check for fuel injector pulse when the issue is present.
 
i have the Chrysler box.

<a href="https://ibb.co/JH4Bw1v"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/5LyMg0r/chrysler-ignition.jpg" alt="chrysler-ignition" border="0"></a>
 
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Ok, still, power is flowing thru the coil. You will have lamp on, with key on, BOTH positive and negative on the coil.

You are getting closer.

You still need to confirm injector pulse. If that's down too it may be a rpm signal issue


Those chrysler box 240 systems are known for having issues with the shielded wire for the "rpm signal".
 
would injector pulse/rpm signal cut spark to the plugs?

injector pulse = rig up test light to an injector harness while cranking?
 
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