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Old 11-04-2021, 11:13 AM   #26
SkeTchy-MechAniC
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Thanks guys. Seems like it ain't worth the trouble. I'll just keep the stocker on there for now and see if it'll drift a bit when my lsd arrives.
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Old 11-12-2021, 02:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyote View Post
While not directly 240 related, this is required reading IMO on suspension setup.
It is dated but a lot of the fundamentals have not changed.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your.../dp/0912656468
+1. This, along with:

https://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-.../dp/0837602262

so that you understand what you're trying to achieve.
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Old 11-12-2021, 03:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
+1. This, along with:

https://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-.../dp/0837602262

so that you understand what you're trying to achieve.


Now brought to you TB¢#3@p™.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11491643102...3ABFBM2Ova2qJf
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Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi stock cna sprout?


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Old 11-12-2021, 04:44 PM   #29
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Beaten by Redwood again.
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Old 11-12-2021, 09:51 PM   #30
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I can't believe Mr Plow neglected to post the pic of me smoking the front tires in the Turbobricks CobbleArt Rapa Scrapple 244 at carlisle. I loved driving that car, even though I took leave of my senses at the time.
And I'm not sure I ever told him, but my dad's number in SCCA was 75. Also Paul Newman's. PLN was nationally ranked, so he bumped us to a different number when he showed up. But I hung out with his crew chief's daughter (we were both 16, same birth date), so ... I guess These IPAs were stronger than anticipated.
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Old 11-13-2021, 03:18 AM   #31
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Not here to throw bombs, but this "super soft/no rear bar" thing is getting to gospel levels on this forum and that's just not healthy at any level of motorsport. One guy at Road America might LOVE a big bar, soft spring setup that Towery can't make work on a 2nd gear parking lot autocross. Another dude who makes time in the fast stuff might need a stable platform with very little travel to get the car to set early so he can get off the brakes and roll speed. The guy next door in the paddock? All about drive off the corner, and a little soft on braking technique, so this car is definitely soft at the rear, but what it's actually just that the LSD disks are worn, or the driver just hangs on to the brakes too long because... reasons. And homegirl over here? She might be like me, who wants a car to always move at the rear so you can steer with the brake pedal. These are incredibly complex and subjective topics that, frankly, most of the posters don't have much experience with. If you are not sliding both ends of the car every corner, every lap, regardless of the speed of said corner (or the runoff), then you really don't have much of an idea of what the car is like, just where your current limitations are. Coming to terms with this is an important step towards getting faster, BTW! It has happened to every single "FAST PERSON" in racing at some point.


Roll is not a simple phenomenon, and if it was as simple as this forum is starting to imply than we wouldn't need so many engineers in the paddock. You can get as kinky as you want here (and honestly, it's just as easy to get a little TOO kinky at times with roll sequences), there are plenty of practical engineers making lots of money doing this, and there are a million different ways to tune a car for a million different outcomes you are looking to achieve. Think about NASCAR or Spec Miata or anywhere in between where the machinery, conditions, and primary purpose are a million times more focussed than "I want my brick to do stuff and it doesn't" and then think about HOW MUCH TIME WE SPEND CHANGING ALL THIS **** ALL THE TIME in order to get the correct balance to finish in front. We often make ride height or toe changes on pit lane without alignment, even though that would be absolutely a dereliction of duty back at the truck between sessions. Are we wrong? Of course not, the target on the sweet spot IS ALWAYS MOVING.

Finally, THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANYONE HERE. The people who have tracked their cars came up with what worked for them, with their resources and goals, and some have done really good work with good results. However, sort race cars for a living, and I wouldn't ever be so concrete in my bar setting recommendations as this. Hell, what if it's raining? Just really cold? Old tires? Race tires? How much preload? And on and on forever...
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Old 11-13-2021, 09:51 AM   #32
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Not here to throw bombs, but this "super soft/no rear bar" thing is getting to gospel levels on this forum and that's just not healthy at any level of motorsport.
I agree with you because conditions are always changing both on the track and the road and sometimes you need to find a happy medium that works the best in most situations.

At Lime Rock Park where we race at for the most part, just as on the road, all of the corners are different and some have radius changes. One of the corners climbs a hill and another goes down a hill and both are challenging to get thru. Even after finding a good overall set-up you have to learn how to drive the car were it doesn't handle as well, without abusing the tires because once that happens their performance goes downhill fast.

Last edited by vintagewrench; 11-13-2021 at 10:01 AM..
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Old 11-13-2021, 04:31 PM   #33
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The subject is way to complex to take the time discussing it here. I agree with you 100%. With my Mustang GT, not a 240, yet, it is front engine, RWD and has 4 wheels, I run the stock front bar and a larger rear bar that is adjustable. My car corners flat, exits corners very well and does not oversteer. Someone else behind the wheel might think otherwise. Driving style has a huge effect on how a car behaves. Others I race with are always complaining that their RWD Camaros and Mustangs understeer. I never had that problem with several Camaros I have run. I don't expect a car to corner without transferring weight to the steering tires. IOW, I late brake and get the weight where it belongs and get back on the throttle mid corner to power out of corners. I don't hammer down on the throttle anywhere except when the car is pointed straight ahead and on a smooth surface. My huge, heavy, fat ass GT keeps up with Miatas on tight Autocross courses. It is also still stable at 100+ mph on road courses. SCCA FS class rules allow only one sway bar change, front or rear. I started out with a larger front bar which made the car very precise on steering inputs. Under most conditions I would call it almost neutral handling. On sustained corners, more than 180 degrees direction change it would push to the outside of the corner. I decided to try going back to the stock front bar and installing a larger, adjustable rear bar. The car is now a bit touchy if it is wet out, yet, corners great and doesn't seem to have the push on long corners. If the FS rules allowed it, I would run much stiffer springs on both ends. CAM C allows spring changes and the CAM C cars are definitely quicker through the same courses. They are also allowed power upgrades, wider wheel changes and unlimited camber. IOW, there is no one formula that works across all the conditions a car is operated under.
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Old 11-13-2021, 06:57 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mikep View Post
I can't believe Mr Plow neglected to post the pic of me smoking the front tires in the Turbobricks CobbleArt Rapa Scrapple 244 at carlisle. I loved driving that car, even though I took leave of my senses at the time.
And I'm not sure I ever told him, but my dad's number in SCCA was 75. Also Paul Newman's. PLN was nationally ranked, so he bumped us to a different number when he showed up. But I hung out with his crew chief's daughter (we were both 16, same birth date), so ... I guess These IPAs were stronger than anticipated.
I picked the number because of PLN. I also figured it would usually be available in my class. Before that, I used 42. It was the inverse of Jeff Gordon.

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Old 11-13-2021, 07:41 PM   #35
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^^ This is why I love having ABS on my “race” car. My friend that has a Fox body Mustang has ruined two sets of Advan A052 tires this season due to flat spots.
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Old 11-14-2021, 12:52 AM   #36
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^^ This is why I love having ABS on my “race” car. My friend that has a Fox body Mustang has ruined two sets of Advan A052 tires this season due to flat spots.
Be careful what you wish for! Street-based ABS systems are by far the scariest thing I've ever had to deal with in my entire career. **** those Grand Am ST brake rules! They have a mind of their own and the moment you get a "high/hard pedal" in a big braking zone without runoff, you'll understand what I mean!

OTOH, racing ABS is pretty spectacular usually. Often difficult to even discern that it is intervening, watch an IMSA race and you'll see the shift light are used to indicate locking intervention, since with analog valves there isn't a sensation in the pedal (I actually use the pressure on my collarbones as my tell that more pressure isn't changing decel G load!). Anyways, it's the only driver aid other than flatshift that I'm really cool with, since it saves SO MUCH MONEY when you put your dentists and doctors in for their stint.

PS, Towery has good taste in numerology, I've learned!
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:18 AM   #37
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^^. I’ve experienced what you are referring to with older Volvo ABS. The “street” systems on high performance cars have come a long way.
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Old 11-14-2021, 06:43 PM   #38
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Getting back to stock-mount 240 rear sways vs body mount,
I have a strong suspicion that fat (ipd, etc) rear sways bolted to the long lower arms puts them in a bind and tries to twist them. That long arm also defines the effective sway bar arm length, making it ineffective compared to body-mounted.
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Old 11-16-2021, 06:27 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kyote View Post
While not directly 240 related, this is required reading IMO on suspension setup.
It is dated but a lot of the fundamentals have not changed.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your.../dp/0912656468
Ordered a copy based off your comment above, and I've started reading it - thanks
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Old 11-16-2021, 09:28 PM   #40
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Ordered a copy based off your comment above, and I've started reading it - thanks
You're welcome. Next pickup Maximum boost by Corky Bell. Again, dated, but fundamentals are the same,. And the guy is a G.
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Old 11-23-2021, 08:51 AM   #41
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BTW Paul Newman's car # was his age, changed every year. I saw him at LRP IN '74,I have some great photos of him over the years. Last time I saw him was at Road Atlanta his # was 80
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Old 11-23-2021, 01:09 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by 283SD View Post
BTW Paul Newman's car # was his age, changed every year. I saw him at LRP IN '74,I have some great photos of him over the years. Last time I saw him was at Road Atlanta his # was 80
Incorrect on the every year thing.. The only time I know of that he did that was *edit: 2003?4? to 2007?8? in his corvette.
Early on it was often 3, and the lemans porsche was 70, when he was 54 years old.
His national number was 75 every year we raced against him in the 1970s. He was in his 50s then.
And when he raced with Bob Sharp, it might be a team number, based on Sharp's 33.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/201...of-paul-newman

Last edited by mikep; 11-23-2021 at 01:21 PM..
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Old 11-23-2021, 01:53 PM   #43
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Another very good read on turbocharging is Street Turbocharging by Warner. It's bit more up to date with engine management than Bells book. I would want both on the shelf in my library.
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Old 11-25-2021, 07:09 PM   #44
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Stiff rear bar (and other things that hinder rear compliance) mean you'll lift the inside rear tire when cornering hard. This is undesirable because you want the rears on the ground so that you can drive out of the corner.

It's totally irrelevant to a road car; put whatever you want wherever you want it and remember to check the shipping carton for the stickers, as they're the most important part of the whole deal. But if you are actually trying to go fast, the 240 seems to like lots of bar and spring up front, and much less (no bar) in the back.

Watch some videos of the Grp A 240s from the mid-80s, you'll see them all doing the same thing Towery's showing here.

Mike - FWIW, JB says the Petch car(s) all did the same thing; two wheeling most of the time. IIRC they only ran 30% lockup to avoid power-on understeer as well.
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