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Old 06-07-2021, 01:06 PM   #51
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People claim the transmission of a Lexus GS450h (~282lb) can do 1000hp in short bursts (https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threa...3/post-1065808), but I have never found supporting docs.
I wouldnt be able to comment, but I believe it.

Since e-motors apply full torque from the moment to the knee where back EMF is becoming greater than supply, you're looking for where the knee is and what the torque taper looks like beyond that. Over volting a motor while maintaining peak current pulls the knee higher into the rev range based on EMF. So a 480v tesla power train will knee at about 45mph, limiting it to XXX hp depending on model, now give it that same 500A current discharge at 800v, and the knee moves around 100 mph doubling the HP. There are dyno sheets that are out there where people say its not making peak torque until 30 mph wheel speed, and yeah, that is true of most any OEM EV, but its not the motor limiting the torque off the line, its the software. Tesla utilizes a ramp in torque rate, where the rate of torque increase/second is limited. You apply input to the throttle, and it ramps in to try to maintain traction. Remove that ramp rate, and you can hook two powertrains together and push them to full opposite torque at 0 rpm. They'll sit there and fight each other until one of them overheats the inverter.

The reason behind most manufacturers staying in the 320-480v systems is two fold, range and power electronics. Most OEM systems have decided to stay at lower voltages because the power electronics cant keep up with the heat.
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:10 PM   #52
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:34 PM   #53
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That would be a great swap, especially with how much smaller (dimensionally) a VW 4cyl is over a redblock. They're so cute and tiny!
Josh (Yoshifab) has a TDI swapped 240.
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Old 06-07-2021, 04:02 PM   #54
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I dont but wont waste time explaining why because the phone world only gets mad at the messenger for telling you the truth...


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I'd like to know why you wouldn't think it would work.
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Old 06-07-2021, 04:28 PM   #55
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:07 PM   #56
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My guess is that you don’t fully understand the inner workings of that gearbox. I’ve worked on something similar. So, let me see if I understand it well enough to explain it. From what I see, there’s a planetary set: sun, planets, ring, electric motor controlling the gear ratio by fixing or changing speed at which the planets revolve around the sun (input shaft), this controls speed and torque of the output shaft. With this setup, you have near infinite gear ratios. Meaning you can spin the input shaft in one direction, and spin the planets in either direction, taking this gearbox from a high reduction to an over driven gearbox by how fast (hard) and what direction you spin the planets. They have these set in preset stages, but as a torque amplifier, I think that with the right system you could potentially get a 1000hp with very little hp on the input shaft. The only limitation would be the transmission having high enough torque at high enough rpm to be able to cope with input at the speed and torque being fed into the transmission. So, get an idea of what tq it makes, and where it knees, and depending on voltage and control, you could probably find a way to get to that 1000hp number, and I don’t think it would be as big of an ordeal as you might guess.
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:09 PM   #57
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Yeah I guess you right I don't know much about anything. Sure it makes 1000 hp .Of course Its not like you cant just read the spec anywhere. I said I wouldnt waste my time telling you why and now you see why.



Later....

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Old 06-07-2021, 10:29 PM   #58
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Just saying that I believe it to be possible, and why. If you’re able to find where the torque limitations of the gearbox’s motor arrangement are and where to place the rpm limits, you could be able to do do this. This gearbox has the capability to underdrive>overdrive at constantly variable ratios, and with the people involved, I’d venture to guess that it more powerful than you’d expect.
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:50 PM   #59
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Im just saying Im done...
Im in the process of trying to get Mikep to remove my entire e thread because you all just dont want to listen to me and I guess even though Ive showed you the things I know and even offered you a look into how efficiency plays in . You insist that I don't know a thing . I know the reason so Ima just leave it alone. It's clear to me that the forum has only a set group of individuals that it wants to listen to. I cant waste my time with it. You don't know the value of the things I try to show you so I really hope mikep pulls it away. Its pretty insulting to have spent all the time I have with it and have someone tell me I don't know anything because they say it may be possible. I hate I shared anything and I'm going to stop doing that. Its pointless. When I heard 19 points of efficiency wont make much difference in the performance of an EV I should have cut my losses and just bugged out. Ya'll want to argue and throw ad hominem everything but listen to me so thats fine. Honestly there's an awfully lot of elementary questions in it from members that are now experts in this one. Its pretty amazing the view count of nothing. Thats the thanks I get...just take my knowledge 10,000 plus strong and tell me I'm stupid and what Im aware and not aware of at the same time. Thank you. I'm banning myself from here.

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Old 06-08-2021, 12:31 AM   #60
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Im just saying Im done...
You bring ideas to the forum. Just like everyone else. Your ideas may be different and that doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong, and vice-versa. Believe it or not, it's OK for people to disagree with you.

There are a lot of people on this forum that have real-world experience with many of the concepts you discuss, including in this thread alone. In this community there tends to be a large gap where the theories and hypothesis don't match the actual result and for most people on this forum the results matter more than the ideas behind the result, and this really seems to bother you.

There hasn't been a single thread on this forum you've participated in that hasn't gone way off tangent because you take issue with anyone not agreeing with you or you think people aren't listening. You don't really seem to have any ability to play well with others and it tends to beg the question if you're a really talented troll, or if this is just how you are in real life.

Regardless, at some point you're going to have to accept that not everyone is as intelligent as you are. Not everyone is going to agree with you, and not everyone is going to accept your ideas. If that's not possible, then maybe group discussions aren't for you.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:25 AM   #61
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Looking over the documentation of that 450h transmission, it’s utilizing 2 MGU planetary sets and 2 mechanical planetary sets, I’m guessing one is for reverse. Pretty interesting. Also running pretty low voltage dc bus at 288v nominal with 600v burst capability controlled by the inverter. I’d bet that just locking out the input shaft to the case and running the planetary sets as a motor plus Tq multiplier, and second mgu as speed/tq controller into a Volvo differential, you’d be surprised at how much available power is actually available if you have the battery to back it.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:32 AM   #62
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You bring ideas to the forum. Just like everyone else. Your ideas may be different and that doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong, and vice-versa. Believe it or not, it's OK for people to disagree with you.

There are a lot of people on this forum that have real-world experience with many of the concepts you discuss, including in this thread alone. In this community there tends to be a large gap where the theories and hypothesis don't match the actual result and for most people on this forum the results matter more than the ideas behind the result, and this really seems to bother you.

There hasn't been a single thread on this forum you've participated in that hasn't gone way off tangent because you take issue with anyone not agreeing with you or you think people aren't listening. You don't really seem to have any ability to play well with others and it tends to beg the question if you're a really talented troll, or if this is just how you are in real life.

Regardless, at some point you're going to have to accept that not everyone is as intelligent as you are. Not everyone is going to agree with you, and not everyone is going to accept your ideas. If that's not possible, then maybe group discussions aren't for you.
I can accept fully the fact that you know who you are and honor yourself as a troll. I can accept that you think high efficiency motor and drive design is a matter of opinions and misinformation. It shows me a clear indication of your lack of understanding about electrical rotating machines. I can accept the fact that you think these cracker jack psychoanalytical rants personally directed at me the last two days are on topic and don't contribute all to any topic tangents, but finally what you need to accept and realize is that when it comes to engineering or motor development I truly don't have to accept anything but the facts. However I am willing to sit back and let it all fall to the bottom with no interference. No slight on swedebrick but the reality is not a thing has been built here off your opinion of me and most likely it wont be at the severely lacking budget proposals. That's the reality of it all. Not one real motor designer or engineer here has disagreed with a single thing I've posted and they won't because they know the difference between opinion and facts. You would too if you knew much about motor development or had done any real research in that regard. Older "concepts" that have been confirmed empirically are already in used in many of the cars discussed here . Tesla , and TOYOTA to name a few . I'm patiently waiting to see where these many opinions lead because when it comes to the things I've shared here about motor design they are fact not unconfirmed speculation from what someone else said who also has no real experience. It's a total waste of my time to argue with someone that clearly knows not alot about it if they think its a matter of opinions. What you should accept is if you cannot digest the information from someone who knows then you have no ambition to be smarter. Your wrong I don't have to accept that the person with a quest that doesn't know what they are doing has too. Im really ok if it takes the phone world a week later to come to realistic budgets etc. Im sure with nasty feeds or a mindset like yours it will continue to lag behind. Im hoping something is built soon because all the speculative talk wont hold interest long or make it go down the road. I can accept that you think the IEEE and this scope here is a matter of opinion. I can only laugh and certainly I cannot let what you say upset me no matter how much u try. You don't know and have not worked with any high level e motor designers so why trouble myself...


It isn't at all an issue for me. Just make sure u can be happy because it sounds like alot of self reflection is actually taking place in the speeches you give. Of course I don't know you and you def dont know me so I can only see you as some crazy angry a self proclaimed troll online that will say things like you do to people you don't know. Its truly radical and obviously speaking to a total stranger that way about things you don't really know about brings you solace.

No matter the ISCAD is the most advanced 48 volt e drive system in the world currently. Straight from Germany. In a few years u might find one in a JY and it wont be cheap.

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Old 06-08-2021, 11:07 AM   #63
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I can accept fully the fact that you know who you are and honor yourself as a troll. I can accept that you think high efficiency motor and drive design is a matter of opinions and misinformation. It shows me a clear indication of your lack of understanding about electrical rotating machines. I can accept the fact that you think these cracker jack psychoanalytical rants personally directed at me the last two days are on topic and don't contribute all to any topic tangents, but finally what you need to accept and realize is that when it comes to engineering or motor development I truly don't have to accept anything but the facts. However I am willing to sit back and let it all fall to the bottom with no interference. No slight on swedebrick but the reality is not a thing has been built here off your opinion of me and most likely it wont be at the severely lacking budget proposals. That's the reality of it all. Not one real motor designer or engineer here has disagreed with a single thing I've posted and they won't because they know the difference between opinion and facts. You would too if you knew much about motor development or had done any real research in that regard. Older "concepts" that have been confirmed empirically are already in used in many of the cars discussed here . Tesla , and TOYOTA to name a few . I'm patiently waiting to see where these many opinions lead because when it comes to the things I've shared here about motor design they are fact not unconfirmed speculation from what someone else said who also has no real experience. It's a total waste of my time to argue with someone that clearly knows not alot about it if they think its a matter of opinions. What you should accept is if you cannot digest the information from someone who knows then you have no ambition to be smarter. Your wrong I don't have to accept that the person with a quest that doesn't know what they are doing has too. Im really ok if it takes the phone world a week later to come to realistic budgets etc. Im sure with nasty feeds or a mindset like yours it will continue to lag behind. Im hoping something is built soon because all the speculative talk wont hold interest long or make it go down the road. I can accept that you think the IEEE and this scope here is a matter of opinion. I can only laugh and certainly I cannot let what you say upset me no matter how much u try. You don't know and have not worked with any high level e motor designers so why trouble myself...



It isn't at all an issue for me. Just make sure u can be happy because it sounds like alot of self reflection is actually taking place in the speeches you give. Of course I don't know you and you def dont know me so I can only see you as some crazy angry a self proclaimed troll online that will say things like you do to people you don't know. Its truly radical and obviously speaking to a total stranger that way about things you dont really know about brings you solace.

No matter the ISCAD is the most advanced 48 volt e drive system in the world currently. Straight from Germany. In a few years u might find one in a JY!
How does your mirror survive your greatness? I would think it just melts from your awesomeness.
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:14 AM   #64
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Ill get concerned when opinions can hand wind something like this and extract 17+ hp out of a 448 gram motor at this efficiency level. When opinions can increase a motors copper fill by 138% we can start to have a real conversations about my mirrors. Lets not fight about it id rather follow the progress of opinions. Falling back....for sure, but the truth is If Swedbrick has a lathe and a mill I can show him easily how to silence the opinions here. The one other person that I recognize as a electric motor builder on this board hasn't posted in this thread....and knows exactly the novelty of things like ISACD and hybrid winds. If you value IC forum opinions over oscilloscopes and IEEE labs directed by fellows and seniors I'd truly be ignorant to continue any debate here. Man you know I'm crazy to the think ABB could touch anything the phone world post here.

Heres a graph for opinions about the hybrid winds with stator shifted topologies... U can troll and do not have to listen to anything I say I'm promise you it is not my LOSS!!!

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Old 06-08-2021, 11:21 AM   #65
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Youd get more fill with square windings.
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:39 AM   #66
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Not with that stator with radial arms and rounded slot bottoms you really wont. We've done it already let me show u what that stator designed to optimize square conductors looks like. Can I see the motors you've wound? For them youd want a square slot. This is not cutting edge information. If you feel you have told me something groundbreaking you must not be aware that motors the size of ev's can achieve efficiencies > 95% will less than 50 % fill.... Square wire is cool but I can show you motors with 70% fill that have round wires. The square conductor still wont get rid of the space harmonics that eat away at efficiency in a fractionally slotted concentrated wind. Big iron losses. A 50mm prototype is 1800.00 dollars. Nothing to consider in and adequate size if you have no money.


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Old 06-08-2021, 12:04 PM   #67
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One thing the industry has examined in FSCW traction machines is influence of non a semi magnetic slot wedges. Can you tell me what would be the optimal permeability would be for them to maximize efficiency in such a machine? This has already been examined and proven. What can you tell me about it? There is no one serious about designing an EV that does not consider efficiency. Its pure nonsense. You know about square windings so can you point me to a material that is optimal for making slot wedges with FSCW machines that uses those windings that broaden a motors efficiency band without detriment to is static torque output? Give me your opinion.

Regard
Hubert

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Old 06-08-2021, 12:07 PM   #68
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I don’t need to wind them by hand. We have machines that do that for us. I’m in the power train side of things, so I get to modify, assemble, tune and dyno test them before they get shipped to the end users. Along with assembly and testing of mostly prototype gearbox systems. Including planetary constantly variable transmissions equipped with or without their own motors.

My coworkers in our power electronics site play with control and power management. Smallest motors I’ve run are 90nm or so on the shaft, and about 20k rpm. Largest around 1500nm with peak rpm around 6k. Typically the builds best suited for the race and hobby market are around 4-700nm, with 10-15k rpm thresholds depending on end user nominal voltage.
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:08 PM   #69
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Not with that stator with radial arms and rounded slot bottoms you really wont. We've done it already let me show u what that stator designed to optimize square conductors looks like. Can I see the motors you've wound? For them youd want a square slot. This is not cutting edge information. If you feel you have told me something groundbreaking you must not be aware that motors the size of ev's can achieve efficiencies > 95% will less than 50 % fill.... Square wire is cool but I can show you motors with 70% fill that have round wires. The square conductor still wont get rid of the space harmonics that eat away at efficiency in a fractionally slotted concentrated wind. Big iron losses. A 50mm prototype is 1800.00 dollars. Nothing to consider in and adequate size if you have no money.
Pretty sure nobody is asking about making or modifying a motor to make it better/more efficient.

The majority here that are thinking of going down the EV route would rather pull a motor and inverter from a known source and adapt that. No prototypes, just proven parts we can find at the wreckers or on eBay.

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The 450H is a gold mine for DIY EV's. The CVT transmission is an overgrown prius unit, in RWD format. And the AWD the suv model (RX450H) had a fully self contained differential with it's own electric motor that was in parallel with a prop shaft. It is fully able to be used with or without the prop shaft there.

So dual motor EV, series hybrid, parallel hybrid, whatever.

And you can buy wrecked 450H's pretty cheap.
Can we say all wheel drive 240?
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:21 PM   #70
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I don’t need to wind them by hand. We have machines that do that for us. I’m in the power train side of things, so I get to modify, assemble, tune and dyno test them before they get shipped to the end users. Along with assembly and testing of mostly prototype gearbox systems. Including planetary constantly variable transmissions equipped with or without their own motors.

My coworkers in our power electronics site play with control and power management. Smallest motors I’ve run are 90nm or so on the shaft, and about 20k rpm. Largest around 1500nm with peak rpm around 6k. Typically the builds best suited for the race and hobby market are around 4-700nm, with 10-15k rpm thresholds depending on end user nominal voltage.
Sure... but you charged square coils and fill. And if you know about that youd know more fill is achievable with a hand wind that was your point im addressing. I commission much larger machines than you describe but that wont make the ecar go. And again since efficiency isnt truly a goal there's not much for me to say here. If you never wound a motor yourself then you hardly are an expert to hold up square windings in my face as some benchmark. Its clear from your post that your friends never heard of a single phase sector stator in their motor lessons and displays to you. If your really at industry you should already know who ABB is and dare not argue with its tech... Trust me you friends never run the things they have nor do they have there know how back by millions.


If the turbobrick EV way is to not care about efficiency in an ev when we know you want the best performance Ive already said there no reason for me to continue but I wont let opinions replace facts if they are directed at me. Things like cooper fill, harmonic content , efficiency, and power factor have nothing to do with any opinions and everything to do with the facts. All the name calling and snivel remarks wont change that.

Ill enjoy the read here for what its worth but have no fear Im def playing the rear at this point. An assembler of motors is no corner to try to drive me from. Women in china that know nothing really about electric motors assemble and wind them and build transmissions daily. My girlfriend assembles dana transmissions. She knows really nothing even about cars. If it breaks down she comes to me. Go ahead and enjoy yourselves. Im not terribly concerned at this point based on al the opinions how motor work or the importance of efficiency. I cant wait to see it put together... since no volvo has lexus ev in it it working well it isn't proven . The car as a whole will certainly be an unproven prototype too so you build it and prove it. I wish you all the success with god speed..

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Old 06-08-2021, 03:42 PM   #71
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^ I'm going to have to get another bottle of acetylene to fit that in my 245.

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My guess is that you don’t fully understand the inner workings of that gearbox. I’ve worked on something similar. So, let me see if I understand it well enough to explain it. From what I see, there’s a planetary set: sun, planets, ring, electric motor controlling the gear ratio by fixing or changing speed at which the planets revolve around the sun (input shaft), this controls speed and torque of the output shaft. With this setup, you have near infinite gear ratios. Meaning you can spin the input shaft in one direction, and spin the planets in either direction, taking this gearbox from a high reduction to an over driven gearbox by how fast (hard) and what direction you spin the planets. They have these set in preset stages, but as a torque amplifier, I think that with the right system you could potentially get a 1000hp with very little hp on the input shaft. The only limitation would be the transmission having high enough torque at high enough rpm to be able to cope with input at the speed and torque being fed into the transmission. So, get an idea of what tq it makes, and where it knees, and depending on voltage and control, you could probably find a way to get to that 1000hp number, and I don’t think it would be as big of an ordeal as you might guess.
If we are still taking toyota/lexus, That's a good tech description. I teach kids, so I usually use an open diff to show them my interpretation of how it "idles", "creeps", etc.

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Im just saying Im done...
Im in the process of trying to get Mikep to remove my entire e thread because you all just dont want to listen to me and I guess even though Ive showed you the things I know and even offered you a look into how efficiency plays in . You insist that I don't know a thing . I know the reason so Ima just leave it alone. It's clear to me that the forum has only a set group of individuals that it wants to listen to. I cant waste my time with it. You don't know the value of the things I try to show you so I really hope mikep pulls it away. Its pretty insulting to have spent all the time I have with it and have someone tell me I don't know anything because they say it may be possible. I hate I shared anything and I'm going to stop doing that. Its pointless. When I heard 19 points of efficiency wont make much difference in the performance of an EV I should have cut my losses and just bugged out. Ya'll want to argue and throw ad hominem everything but listen to me so thats fine. Honestly there's an awfully lot of elementary questions in it from members that are now experts in this one. Its pretty amazing the view count of nothing. Thats the thanks I get...just take my knowledge 10,000 plus strong and tell me I'm stupid and what Im aware and not aware of at the same time. Thank you. I'm banning myself from here.

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I am an archivist my nature. There is good info there, and if you requested a clean-up, I would find the time soon and clean it up, and then re-open it.

I do not think it needs to go away.

I am getting more and more busy over the next two weeks, so let's keep the cobbling ideas going in here, and sort out the pissing contests elsewhere.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:12 PM   #72
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^ I'm going to have to get another bottle of acetylene to fit that in my 245.


If we are still taking toyota/lexus, That's a good tech description. I teach kids, so I usually use an open diff to show them my interpretation of how it "idles", "creeps", etc.



I am an archivist my nature. There is good info there, and if you requested a clean-up, I would find the time soon and clean it up, and then re-open it.

I do not think it needs to go away.

I am getting more and more busy over the next two weeks, so let's keep the cobbling ideas going in here, and sort out the pissing contests elsewhere.
Oh no mike its only my OPINIONS posted there LOL.... I know your buzy and having to chaperone grown ass men is tiring.

Its very disappointing that the phone world never once considered what happens if the swapped motor loses a phase. Winding the motor is part of servicing it. I guess the turboricks way will be a one and done.... if it ever fails... Marvelous....truly...

If you dont want to remove it why no unlock it so i can stay in my lane and anyone that like the turbobricks way can stay in here.

Id like to talk to people that did not touch this thread but are in mine like James M. who posted something tangible I can recognize as tru economical DIY. A warp 9 could really push the brick down the track. Win a few races and you can step up your equipment .



Janspeed
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JLfenton95
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...41&postcount=5



There's a few people in it starting trouble that hadn't a clue about EV they just like to know everything even in threads where the truly know nothing. They will even tell people how much hp they make without even knowing there compression ratios etc.

Allow the people that are capable and have interest in building there own inverter motors whatever have our own playground where we can play with the ideas they have shared. Have you noticed the only members in mine that have commented here are Cullberro and Cw the rest of these guys id like to continue on with in my thread. Im not in any pissing match by showing what I know until someone tries to piss on it then out comes gallons. Remember I left here and they simply followed me there. think about it If they don't have interest why are they there???? That part is not making since if posting how efficiency governs power is not something they want to hear. Someone on this board cares about that so let us talk and they can speculate on the lexus transmissions etc here . I promise you ill never return.

Let the members that didnt have a problem with the tech i was posting learn since they are willing to have an honest look. we should have a space where we can share ideas and concepts no one wants to touch here.

Im so good with this all you have to do is if you dont subscribe to it just stay out with negative comments. How difficult is that?


Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 06-08-2021 at 05:32 PM..
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Old 06-08-2021, 07:42 PM   #73
HiSPL
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My guess is that you don’t fully understand the inner workings of that gearbox. I’ve worked on something similar. So, let me see if I understand it well enough to explain it. From what I see, there’s a planetary set: sun, planets, ring, electric motor controlling the gear ratio by fixing or changing speed at which the planets revolve around the sun (input shaft), this controls speed and torque of the output shaft. With this setup, you have near infinite gear ratios. Meaning you can spin the input shaft in one direction, and spin the planets in either direction, taking this gearbox from a high reduction to an over driven gearbox by how fast (hard) and what direction you spin the planets. They have these set in preset stages, but as a torque amplifier, I think that with the right system you could potentially get a 1000hp with very little hp on the input shaft. The only limitation would be the transmission having high enough torque at high enough rpm to be able to cope with input at the speed and torque being fed into the transmission. So, get an idea of what tq it makes, and where it knees, and depending on voltage and control, you could probably find a way to get to that 1000hp number, and I don’t think it would be as big of an ordeal as you might guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb6T...=DamienMaguire
This guy's already built a car out of this gearbox. He's since sold this car on, but it was fully operational.

The input shaft can be locked in place, thereby using only the electric motor.
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Old 06-08-2021, 07:58 PM   #74
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Can we say all wheel drive 240?
Heck yeah. An AWD 240 would be a beast on the drag strip or the rally stage.
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:38 PM   #75
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb6T...=DamienMaguire
This guy's already built a car out of this gearbox. He's since sold this car on, but it was fully operational.

The input shaft can be locked in place, thereby using only the electric motor.
Saw a few of his videos. He had some interesting experiments with it. There were more than a few of his ideas that he had that fall within what I was meaning. He was running into instances at one point where the power motor was making enough power to overcome the capacity of the ratio control motor forcing underdrive and leaving lower than desired output shaft speeds. Not exactly sure what he ended up with in the end, but I know that he was building an inverter/controller that would operate at higher voltage. Seemed like his hope was to broaden the available torque range for the ratio control motor by way of increasing line voltage.
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