home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > maintenance & nonperformance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2021, 12:35 PM   #26
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

Yeah, that's how I understand it. cam/spacer/gear are all tight to each other, no spinning relative to each other since they are tightened as one unit. since the spacer is just a bit thicker than the thrust plate it allows the cam/spacer/gear to rotate. If I end up having to put a cam in it, I'll get a new spacer, thrust plate, cam, lifters, and I guess I should have the head looked at and new exhaust seats and valve job?
__________________
1986 245 Auto (RIP)
1986 245 Auto (RIP)
1988 245, M47
1989 245 Auto California Car (sold)
1993 245 Classic (Bro's Daily)
1988 245 (turbo manual swapped)
1990 245 (getting turbo manual swapped)
1991 245se (rat rod project, turbo aw71 swap)
1969 164 (trying to make it run)
Instagram
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 01:30 PM   #27
hiperfauto
The Librarian
 
hiperfauto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: So Cal
Default

The camshaft is only hardened a few thousandths of an inch into the metal. Once it's worn past the hardened metal it will continue to wear rapidly. I highly recommend changing the cam and lifters ASAP.

The good news is that it looks like the head was off recently. Hopefully it got a valve job and hardened exhaust seats while it was off.

When it comes to adjusting the carbs, there isn't much you can do to the mixture without the special tools. Make sure the diaphragms aren't torn and that there's oil in the dampers. There's an idle trim screw on the side of the carbs but it doesn't do much.
hiperfauto is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 01:37 PM   #28
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

It did have the later style seal on the timing cover, but I'm not sure anything has ever been done to the head other than the PO cleaned the outside of it. What jumps out to you that it was off? I do have the special tool to adjust the carbs.
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 01:51 PM   #29
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

I talked to the PO and he said the guy before him said "something had been done to top end to allow use of unleaded. Not sure what was done or if that goal was accomplished." Sound like hardened exhaust seats?
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 01:57 PM   #30
hiperfauto
The Librarian
 
hiperfauto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: So Cal
Default

All B30's have the rubber front seal.

The head isn't painted which usually means it was off.

Yep, sounds like you got lucky and the PO had hardened exhaust seats installed. Too bad he didn't replace the cam while the head was off
hiperfauto is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 02:37 PM   #31
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
The camshaft is only hardened a few thousandths of an inch into the metal. Once it's worn past the hardened metal it will continue to wear rapidly. I highly recommend changing the cam and lifters ASAP.
So quickly that it's somewhat uncommon to catch one in the act of going flat. There's usually not much of an indication that it's happening until it gets really flat. Even with the valve barely opening, it will still usually idle just fine, the cylinder will just have a growing weakness at higher throttle settings.

By the time it's idling funny, the cam is usually pretty much a circle.

It's one of the weak spots on a B20/B30. The lobes just aren't oiled all that well - as far as I can tell just somewhat casually by some oil dripping off the lifters themselves (which are only oiled second hand by oil draining from the rocker arms - the lifters have no oiling in their bores). Also perhaps by windage in the crankcase(?).

One of the reasons that it's worth getting some higher zinc oil. Modern gas engine oils have less zinc, because it can hurt catalytic converters, and modern engine designs have fewer sliding bearing surfaces like the lifter/tappet. Diesel engine oils have more zinc, there are some racing oils that have more, or you can get some ZDDP additive and add a little on each oil change. I've been doing that last one with mine, pouring a bit of Lucas break-in additive:
__________________
'63 PV Rat Rod
'93 245 16VT Classic #1141
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2021, 03:03 PM   #32
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
One of the reasons that it's worth getting some higher zinc oil. Modern gas engine oils have less zinc, because it can hurt catalytic converters, and modern engine designs have fewer sliding bearing surfaces like the lifter/tappet. Diesel engine oils have more zinc, there are some racing oils that have more, or you can get some ZDDP additive and add a little on each oil change. I've been doing that last one with mine, pouring a bit of Lucas break-in additive:
Delo and Rotella diesel oil have high zinc content and are dirt cheap. Even the synthetic variants aren't that pricey.
__________________
1967 122s, carbed B20F, M41, the sports tractor
1998 S70, grandma-mobile
1989 240 B230F, V15 cam, chipped EZK, M47 swap (Lost a fight with a Chevy express van), the millenial falcon
2012 VW Tiguan (screw plastic water pumps), daily
spock345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2021, 10:51 AM   #33
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

https://youtu.be/U2KqGWzP_5s

It's still not hitting on all cylinders, but I believe the real bad sound that I worried was knocking is gone after the timing gear change. Where would you go from here?
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2021, 01:46 PM   #34
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

Looks like it's #6 that isn't firing... Pulling wires one at a time and each one changes the way it runs until 6 which does nothing. Spark is fine. I'm gonna look in there with an inspection camera. Seems like those valves we're opening fine...
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2021, 02:20 PM   #35
hiperfauto
The Librarian
 
hiperfauto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: So Cal
Default

Is the firing order correct? Have you done a compression test?
hiperfauto is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2021, 02:30 PM   #36
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

I checked firing order and it is right. I need to check ignition timing and do a compression check. The previous owner said he tested the compression and it was good, but I need to verify.
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2021, 10:54 AM   #37
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

I'm going to look into the reason #6 isn't firing after work today. Thinking I should prob go ahead and order the stuff to do the cam. What all should I do while I'm in there? Intake/exhaust gaskets, fuel pump gasket, carb gasket, head gasket, cam, lifters, thrust plate, spacer, timing gear cover gasket, valve cover gasket. Anything else I'm forgetting? Which grind should I go with? On VP they have a stock one, and a "K."
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2021, 10:58 AM   #38
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

Was that the stock grind on a B30E? Fuel injection cams always perk up carbed B18/20 motors. That was the real source of most of the added HP on the injected models vs. the dual carbed versions.

I'm not sure those two carbs can keep up at slightly higher RPM's though.
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2021, 11:04 AM   #39
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

VP has 2 cams available. The "C" which they say is the standard in all B30s, and the "k" which says can be used in original carb setups or injection. Says it's good for +25-40 hp.
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2021, 02:16 PM   #40
vwbusman66
Stößelstange über alles
 
vwbusman66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingsville, MD/ Morgantown, WV
Default

Eh.
K cam and send it. If the strombergs can't keep up, good excuse to throw triple DCOE's on it, though I think they'll keep up for a bit at least.
__________________
1964.5 122S Wagon B20/M40
1971 142 beater
2009 Jetta Sportwagen 2.5S 0 speed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast740fromSC
I am living proof that fetal alcohol syndrome is not that bad
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
the only problem with that is what you define as cheap and fast
Quote:
Originally Posted by propav8r
The incest is implied.
vwbusman66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2021, 02:31 PM   #41
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

As far as I know the C and the K grind for the B30 are the same lobe dimensions as the C and K for the B18/20.

If that is true then definitely go for the K.

The B30 should have also gotten bigger valves in the fuel injected version. Much like the four cylinder motors.
spock345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 02:48 PM   #42
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

I'm working on doing a compression test and it takes like over 20 cranks before it pumps up, that's not normal right?
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 03:27 PM   #43
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

- Pull all the plugs
- Hold the throttle open
- Crank and observe

It shouldn't be taking that many compressions to build up to a plateau. Maybe 3 or 4?
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 03:43 PM   #44
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

That was the procedure I followed, and they all took a bunch of cranking before they plateaued.
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 03:52 PM   #45
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

What PSI did it eventually puff its way to?

Might try a small squirt of oil into the spark plug hole and see what happens.
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 04:11 PM   #46
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

Most made it up to 155ish, and I had one lower at 135ish. My battery wasn't very good so it was kinda cranking slow. I'm going to do it again after work today with a freshly charged battery, and try it wet too. Then I'm going to pull the valve cover and measure how much the valves are getting depressed on each one. Then I think I'll be able to say for sure I have a worn cam. If the compression numbers go up on that low cyl with some oil I can say I need rings too, and at that point the whole thing can come out and get looked over.

I would much rather be able to throw a new cam on it and button it back up and ride, but if it has to get rebuilt...it has to get rebuilt.
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 08:41 PM   #47
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

Ok I got a different compression tester and did it again. I'm not sure if it matters too much, but since It was all apart I didn't warm up the engine first this time.

Cyl 1 dry-120 wet 120
Cyl 2 dry -130 wet -130
Cyl 3 dry - 125 wet -125
Cyl 4 dry - 135 wet -135
Cyl 5 dry - 127 wet -130
Cyl 6 dry - 115 wet - 115

Then I went through and measured the lift of each valve from it's fully depressed position. I could have stopped pretty early on, but I did them all for ****s and giggles.

Valve 1- 351
Valve 2 - 352
Valve 3 -357
Valve 4 - 360
Valve 5 - 236
Valve 6 - 234
Valve 7 - 168
Valve 8 - 355
Valve 9 - 358
Valve 10 - 355
Valve 11 - 273
Valve 12 - 362
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 08:50 PM   #48
intothelabyrinth
Board Member
 
intothelabyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Default

Oh and it got there in like 3 or 4 revolutions with this tester.
intothelabyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 09:47 PM   #49
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Yeah, valve 7 seems to be an issue there.
spock345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2021, 11:01 PM   #50
c1800
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: A small village of one.
Default

And your compression numbers are just “OK”. Seems to be nearing rebuild time.
c1800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.