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Old 10-12-2021, 01:21 AM   #1
adamdrives
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Default 245t low power

Car: 1983 245 turbo m46, 136k, originally a non IC car, 3.73 rear, hydras

back story: I got the car wrecked and sitting from a fb member. went through everything, turned up boost and added an NPR but still felt slow so I put a 15g and exhaust on it but it still seems like it's not as fast as it should be.

exhaust:
90+ mani
straight flange 15g
WG set at 12 psi, mbc set to 15psi
cbv block off plate
2.5" SS dp and exhaust, aftermarket cat, cherry bomb res, rear exit
aem wideband

intake:
NPR intercooler
b230 intake
airbox warm up flap removed, 2.75" inlet
K&N filter

ignition:
stock Bosch coil, cap and rotor, bougi metal boot wires
ngk bp7es plugs stock gap
base timing set to 12*

fuel:
91 octane cali chevron
740 in tank upgrade, new in line pump
new Bosch filter
new Bosch injectors
swapped in known good WUR, no change in performance
volume return test gives ~800 ml
fuel pressure 80-82 running at filter
dwell 36-44 o2 connected, 48 disconnected
11.8-12.5 afr @ wot, lower in higher gears

motor:
all stock b21ft @136k (suspect actual miles higher, non original cluster)
~140 psi across all cylinders engine warm
haven't checked leakdown
valve adjustment .014" cold
adjustable cam gear set to 4* advance
idles at 16" vac

additional info:
82* tstat
stripped interior -100#, ac delete -50#
new mc, junction block, brake hoses, calipers all rebuilt

Driving impressions:
The car needs a lot of throttle to keep up with stop and go traffic. Unpleasant to be hitting near full boost just to keep up or move from a stop light. Can't really be driven lightly in traffic. Laggy until 2500 or so, once in boost it pulls okay. On the highway cruising at 65-70 im right above or below 0" vacuum. Compared to non turbo redblocks, it just doesn't feel "free" to accelerate. Also feels choked compared to a 13c m46 wagon and Garrett auto wagon I've driven. Getting low mpg, best I've gotten is 16mpg, as low as 11 all local driving. Haven't driven far enough to have good highway numbers.

Considerations:
upgrade ignition: MSD 6 BTM (pulled from staged performance sticky)
"A" cam or ipd cam
send in FD for rebuild for full stage 0/peace of mind
better boost controller
enrich with cold start injector or rig addition efi injectors

Conclusion: My goal for this build is to take it to the track, but I also want a fun car to commute or drive to a meet in occasionally. I want to be close to 200 whp, and from what I've read I should be, but my butt dyno puts me well below. Definitely doesn't pull as strong as my stock 745 @ 14psi. Maybe my expectations are too high, but it seems like these cars can be quick with similar setups. Is there anything obvious I'm missing? What modifications would you recommend next to meet my goals?

Thanks for reading
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Last edited by adamdrives; 10-14-2021 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:52 AM   #2
Oyvind Ryeng
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EDIT:
Didn't see you already have a wideband.

Last edited by Oyvind Ryeng; 10-12-2021 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 10-12-2021, 05:43 AM   #3
John242Ti
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Try running the cam straight up... That should make it feel more like a turbo car. It won't feel like a B230FT, of course, since it's a smaller displacement engine, but it shouldn't feel like a B21F with a hot cam in it.

200 wheel hp might be better suited with a T3/T4 hybrid set at 16-17 psi and MSnS... That's what a buddy of mine has on his '84.5 242Ti. Accelerates hard enough to push you back into the seat. Other than the turbo and the fuel system, his engine is basically the same, albeit with the cam being run straight up and not advanced or retarded. Exhaust is stock 2.5" dp with cat in the stock location, but a TME 2.5" stainless cat-back system.
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:31 AM   #4
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Run the cam straight up. Also remember that it's a ft and has mega low compression.

One trick to pep them up is to pull the distributor and drill out the pin in the side that stops the dizzy from pulling to much timing. Do that and set your base idle timing at 18 degrees. Should help a little. And what kind of exhaust did you get for it?
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:09 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamdrives View Post
Driving impressions:
The car needs a lot of throttle to keep up with stop and go traffic. Unpleasant to be hitting near full boost just to keep up or move from a stop light. Can't really be driven lightly in traffic. Laggy until 2500 or so, once in boost it pulls okay.
Considering that you have a manual trans and 15g (both really good things for low end response), I would not change turbos to solve this if it means moving up to one that will increase lag. My car with the same turbo responds very quickly and hits hard boost way before 2k rpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamdrives View Post
On the highway cruising at 65-70 im right above or below 0" vacuum. Compared to non turbo redblocks, it just doesn't feel "free" to accelerate.
Don't compare this to high-compression non-turbos that have a lot more vacuum.
Low or near zero vacuum at 75 mph is a way of life for an engine with 7.5:1 static compression. Vacuum can usually only be improved by always driving downhill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamdrives View Post
Getting low mpg, best I've gotten is 16mpg, as low as 11 all local driving. Haven't driven far enough to have good highway numbers.
16 is pretty typical in my experience, unless you drive like grandma. I get about 22 highway now, but at one time when I still had K-Jet and had things running very nicely I was getting a solid 25 highway. So there is potential.

Record some AF readings at steady cruise in high gear and 50, 60 and 70 mph. I'm curious what that will be. Make sure it's with a fully warm engine, since that will be when you'll have the best cruise vacuum.

Dave
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Volvo Ambivalence of Volvo Enthusiast Community: prancingmoose.com/#novolvo
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
Run the cam straight up. Also remember that it's a ft and has mega low compression.

One trick to pep them up is to pull the distributor and drill out the pin in the side that stops the dizzy from pulling to much timing. Do that and set your base idle timing at 18 degrees. Should help a little. And what kind of exhaust did you get for it?
Interesting. I'll look into that.

Isn't advance good for long end response? That's why I adjusted it.

It's a homemade exhaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
Considering that you have a manual trans and 15g (both really good things for low end response), I would not change turbos to solve this if it means moving up to one that will increase lag. My car with the same turbo responds very quickly and hits hard boost way before 2k rpm.



Don't compare this to high-compression non-turbos that have a lot more vacuum.
Low or near zero vacuum at 75 mph is a way of life for an engine with 7.5:1 static compression. Vacuum can usually only be improved by always driving downhill.



16 is pretty typical in my experience, unless you drive like grandma. I get about 22 highway now, but at one time when I still had K-Jet and had things running very nicely I was getting a solid 25 highway. So there is potential.

Record some AF readings at steady cruise in high gear and 50, 60 and 70 mph. I'm curious what that will be. Make sure it's with a fully warm engine, since that will be when you'll have the best cruise vacuum.

Dave
AFR at cruise is always around 14.5. I can do about 70 without getting into boost. Once I'm over 5# or so afrs fall to 13ish.
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:33 AM   #7
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That's not right I show 7-8 psi of vaccume @ 2500 rpm on level ground at ~65, and get 22mpgees at that speed.
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:52 AM   #8
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That's not right I show 7-8 psi of vaccume @ 2500 rpm on level ground at ~65, and get 22mpgees at that speed.
I'm closer to 3k @ 70 or so, but yeah, I thought I should have a little more vacuum. I've checked for leaks many times now on the different setups, I'm not sure what I could be missing. Whats your vac at idle?
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by adamdrives View Post
I'm closer to 3k @ 70 or so, but yeah, I thought I should have a little more vacuum. I've checked for leaks many times now on the different setups, I'm not sure what I could be missing. Whats your vac at idle?
Running the magic 3.54:1 rear end and 195-65-15s.

Vacuum is 17 at idle.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:17 PM   #10
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Plans today are to check leakdown, install ipd cam and replace trans and diff oils with synthetic.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
Vacuum is 17 at idle.
Wow. That's really great idle vacuum for a B21FT. I generally see 12. Under 10 when AC kicks on.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamdrives View Post
Plans today are to check leakdown, install ipd cam and replace trans and diff oils with synthetic.
Yes I suspect eroded exhaust valves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
Wow. That's really great idle vacuum for a B21FT. I generally see 12. Under 10 when AC kicks on.


Took me 2 JY cylinder heads and a rebuild on the second one to achieve that.
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:14 PM   #13
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Put in Redline synth oils in the gearbox, diff and motor. Type F, 75-90 and 10w-30 respectively. My notes say I had 10w-30 in the box, but it came out smelling more like atf so I think it was Castrol non synth. Overdrive usually is a little picky until the car is hot, but it went right in on the first try today so that's nice. Didn't get a chance to do anything else.

Probably mostly mental but the car felt a little smoother on the 10 mile highway ride home. Probably the cooler weather but I also turned boost up a little and in 4th gear I'm getting 12.0 afr, so I'm happy with that. I could turn it up a little but I have a feeling afrs will be closer to 12.5 in the heat, plus I doubt the 15g is good for much more than 15 psi.

I made a better inlet for the airbox so it faces the grille instead of behind the headlight. Marginal, but when its slow at work I have to find something to keep busy with



Don't mind my scrap pile IC mounts



I'm getting 16" at idle, so if 17" is good then im pretty satisfied the motor is healthy with no major issues. Still gonna check leak down and put the ipd cam in to see how it feels. Definitely gets pretty flat over 4k.
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:18 PM   #14
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T cam and 15g is great.
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
Wow. That's really great idle vacuum for a B21FT. I generally see 12. Under 10 when AC kicks on.

My blue 245 usually is around 18-20 at idle. Mostly stock B21FT - has a ported and polished head that came off Stereophile33's old 242 Turbo's B21FT, but that's about it. B23FT in the 242, which also has a K cam, is around 10-12 at idle.
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Old 10-13-2021, 08:11 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by John242Ti View Post
My blue 245 usually is around 18-20 at idle. Mostly stock B21FT - has a ported and polished head that came off Stereophile33's old 242 Turbo's B21FT, but that's about it. B23FT in the 242, which also has a K cam, is around 10-12 at idle.
Yeah. I forgot that I have a Unitek Phase One cam. That could explain lower vacuum. The cam makes more difference than I was thinking.
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Old 10-13-2021, 11:10 PM   #17
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Got the ipd cam in today. Pulls nicely from 3-5k, can definitely feel the difference there. Vacuum dropped to 13" or so. For some reason it was leaning out at the top of 3rd or 4th, not sure what happened there.

That nice, expensive redline type F is giving my 2nd gear synchros a hard time. I remember the car always grinding second if I wasn't patient when I got it two years ago or so, but its been awhile since I felt that. Seems to get better when warm. So, it seems like I can either have snappy OD with type F or smooth 2nd gear with 10w-30. I'll probably give it another week of driving around and see how I feel about it.

I realized I had too weak of a spring in my BOV and thought maybe that was the cause of early opening coming to a stop/going too rich on decel. Reinstalled my IC pipe with the BOV and new spring and it doesn't stall like with the old spring, but still pegs 10 afr on decel and stinks, so I hooked up the cbv back on the turbo. Doesn't make any sound like on fwd cars, huh.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:33 AM   #18
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I use MTL in my 242's M46. Have both. Snappy OD, and happy synchros.
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Old 10-14-2021, 11:55 AM   #19
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I had always heard mtl was no good because of the OD. I think I have a few cans laying around I might try that.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:16 PM   #20
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I've been using MTL in my m46 with over 330k miles for about 150k miles. It works better warmed up but has always been a great product for helping synchros function better and has never given a problem with the overdrive.
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Old 10-22-2021, 11:05 PM   #21
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Well, I'm still getting piss poor mpgs in the wagon. Best I ever managed was 15.5, getting closer to 14 on my 20 mile round trip commute. I'm usually doing 70 or so, sometimes a bit quicker. WTF?
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Old 10-23-2021, 11:20 AM   #22
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What size tires are you running and what grade of gas?

Not that those factors would explain such terrible mileage but they might help a little bit.
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Old 10-23-2021, 07:17 PM   #23
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I only get about 16mpg with my car. It's too much fun to get good mileage with. 70mph is turning over 3k rpms on the highway and with these cars the mileage drops fast over 3k rpms at steady cruise.
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:02 PM   #24
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I only get about 16mpg with my car. It's too much fun to get good mileage with. 70mph is turning over 3k rpms on the highway and with these cars the mileage drops fast over 3k rpms at steady cruise.


They hit a wall of air at and above ~ 60 mph and mileage drops like a stone.

At 75 I only get 20 mpeegees.
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Old 10-24-2021, 08:32 AM   #25
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Well, I'm still getting piss poor mpgs in the wagon. Best I ever managed was 15.5, getting closer to 14 on my 20 mile round trip commute. I'm usually doing 70 or so, sometimes a bit quicker. WTF?
That's what I get with the 745, similar round trip & road speed. Only time it delivered "good" MPG's was on the longer drives - to the airports, etc.
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